What Safety Camera Database?

[Grey Beard]

Hi again

I see that an optional Safety Camera Database can be purchased from Garmin (European/Lifetime) $45, or an annual one from SCDB €10/annum.

What do members here recommend? (I know that it is illegal in Germany and perhaps in France to have these activated on the GPS). Has anyone here actually had dealings with the boys in blue over the use of Safety Camera databases on a GPS?

I think the SCDB may have a user defined over speed tolerance option, but the Garmin probably does not, unless changed recently.

Germany is a bit of an anomaly/inconsistency - nothing new there I guess, but while Safety Camera databases on GPS systems are illegal, it is perfectly legal for the local German FM radio to make announcements of Flitzer Blitzer (speed camera) police controls.

Grey Beard

 

[Bumpkin]

I think the only European country where it's currently illegal to have GPS orientated scamera locations is Switzerland. I was under the impression that whilst some regions of Germany have declared it illegal this is not backed up at a national level as a point in law. Don't know how I'd argue that with a German policeman though. Things may change and I'm receptive to being proved wrong as I'm off to the Mosel and Black Forest next week.

EDIT: Just noticed you're in Hamburg, so is it really illegal to have these locations in your GPS in Germany?

Legislation is being pushed though in France to make GPS locations for scameras illegal, ISTR that September is the proposed date.

I'm not sure how they're going to effectively enforce this though There are going to be a lot of coincidentally located toad crossing point POI sets out there soon. "Slow down, toads may be crossing" anyone

 

[Grey Beard]

I think the only European country where it's currently illegal to have GPS orientated scamera locations is Switzerland. I was under the impression that whilst some regions of Germany have declared it illegal this is not backed up at a national level as a point in law. Don't know how I'd argue that with a German policeman though. Things may change and I'm receptive to being proved wrong as I'm off to the Mosel and Black Forest next week.

EDIT: Just noticed you're in Hamburg, so is it really illegal to have these locations in your GPS in Germany?

Legislation is being pushed though in France to make GPS locations for scameras illegal, ISTR that September is the proposed date.

I'm not sure how they're going to effectively enforce this though There are going to be a lot of coincidentally located toad crossing point POI sets out there soon. "Slow down, toads may be crossing" anyone

German law is sometimes a bit fragmented and varies from each State to State. They had a bit of a shambles recently when they tried to introduce a cigarette smoking ban at National level, but the local States complained it was their prerogative to introduce this type of legislation (even though it was originally driven by EU Legislation for Occupational Health).

Angling is another area of stupidity. One set of laws as to what time of year you can catch a certain species of fish and what minimum size and a completely different set of conditions on the other bank of the river where the river forms a boundary between two different states.

As far as I am aware, it is illegal to use the Speed Camera Database in Hamburg, but I have never heard of anyone specifically being done over for that. The traffic police do sometimes seem to have it in for bikers 'making progress' along quieter country roads in Schleswig-Holstein, where I am and seem more officious than in the UK. Apparently they are trained to check GPS systems to see if the SCamera database is activated or not. i.e. it probably isn't illegal to have the database installed, just illegal to activate it and act on the information it gives.

Grey Beard

 

[Bumpkin]

Thanks for the heads-up. Might look at how I can disable the warnings in Germany then, either that or remove them.

 

[Grey Beard]

Thanks for the heads-up. Might look at how I can disable the warnings in Germany then, either that or remove them.

What GPS are you using? I know on the Zumo 660 there is an option to disable the warnings without de installing the Garmin Safety Camera Database, but don't know if that also applies to the SCDB software.

I am still interested in people's opinions on the safety camera databases (Garmin v SCDB)

Grey Beard

 

[Doberman]

It might be a silly idea, but what if we have the password protection activated on our GPS? Police pulls you over and you just switch it off.
Are they going to do a master reset and delete our things?

 

[Bumpkin]

What GPS are you using? I know on the Zumo 660 there is an option to disable the warnings without de installing the Garmin Safety Camera Database, but don't know if that also applies to the SCDB software.

I have a StreetPilot 2720 and a Nuvi 765, use both on the bike but will be taking the Nuvi this trip. It's running Pocket GPS World camera database. There is an option to turn off proximity alerts on POIs.

 

[John Armstrong]

I have a StreetPilot 2720 and a Nuvi 765, use both on the bike but will be taking the Nuvi this trip. It's running Pocket GPS World camera database. There is an option to turn off proximity alerts on POIs.

I have a zumo 660 running the pocketgpsworld cameras too, and you can switch off the warnings too.

 

[stolzy]

Some misunderstandings here - in Switzerland at least, and according to my conversations with Swiss friends, the offence is not having the feature turned on, but having the data on the device at all.

My friends suggest that the Swiss police are well versed in how to operate various GPS devices and see if the data is there.

I called garmin and they told me how to remove camera data from the unit (rather than just disable the warnings), but to be honest, I forgot the instructions

 

[Bumpkin]

Some misunderstandings here - in Switzerland at least, and according to my conversations with Swiss friends, the offence is not having the feature turned on, but having the data on the device at all.

Pocket GPS World don't include data for Switzerland for exactly that reason.

Obviously I'm assuming that the Swiss authorities can only do something if they find speedcam POI data on your GPS within their border.

 

[Grey Beard]

Some misunderstandings here - in Switzerland at least, and according to my conversations with Swiss friends, the offence is not having the feature turned on, but having the data on the device at all.

My friends suggest that the Swiss police are well versed in how to operate various GPS devices and see if the data is there.

I called garmin and they told me how to remove camera data from the unit (rather than just disable the warnings), but to be honest, I forgot the instructions

Garmin do a lifetime Europe safety camera database. Don't know if it includes Switzerland, but if it does, it may be difficult or impossible to remove without affecting the other country databases? Is that what you asked Garmin?

Grey Beard

 

[Grey Beard]

It might be a silly idea, but what if we have the password protection activated on our GPS? Police pulls you over and you just switch it off.
Are they going to do a master reset and delete our things?

I think everybody has a PIN access protection on their Credit Cards, but that doesn't stop the police (in France anyway) persuading you to access the local ATM machine if you are caught speeding!

Doubtless the police have some law on their side to force you to give access to the GPS system if they deem it necessary.

Grey Beard

 

[Rasher]

Slightly but..

For camera detection in the UK the Novus GPS systems are supurb, they do a bike version for about £100 with free updates for life, these things win the what car award for database almost every year.

I have had mine 3 years now and use it whenever on unfamiliar turf, top value

 

[red1]

France was going to introduce a ban but it seems that has been changed after a biker protest.
Mike Werner should have the latest info.

 

[Grey Beard]

I have some information from Garmin re these Safety/Speed Camera Data bases and the legality of these.

The Garmin (Cyclops) Safety Camera Data base and also the Pocket GPS Camera Data Base do not cover Switzerland, but it seems that the SCDB product does provide speed camera information for Switzerland.

I asked Garmin about France and Germany and also mentioned Switzerland. I understand the Garmin reply refers to EU Countries, specifically France & Germany (and probably NOT Switzerland).

Basically it is not illegal to use a GPS based SCDB system, as the information on camera locations is already in the Public Domain. It is illegal to use a Radar Detector or a Detector Jamming Device to interfere with the operation of these devices. However, there are so many different types of speed detection systems in use, it would be difficult to block or detect all. I think the key words in the legislation refer to an actual speed infringement. i.e. if you choose to ignore the SCDB info you will still be caught by a speed detection system because you are not interfering with it's operation. It looks like a legal minefield, but the UK French Embassy letter clarifies the French interpretation of their law.


The letter from the UK French Embassy specifically states GPS based systems are NOT illegal.

Extract from Garmin's Europe Tech Support eMail to me yesterday:

BEGINNING OF GARMIN INFO

The law you are talking about is Article R413-15 of the French penal
code.

The action of keeping or transporting a device, gadget or product which
nullifies or hampers the function of apparatus, instrumentation or
systems serving to state or record infractions against the road traffic
rules or to permit the evasion of such infractions is punishable by a
fine at the level set for fifth class contraventions.

( Le fait de détenir ou de transporter un appareil, dispositif ou
produit de nature ou présenté comme étant de nature à déceler la
présence ou perturber le fonctionnement d'appareils, instruments ou
systèmes servant à la constatation des infractions à la législation ou à

la réglementation de la circulation routière ou de permettre de se
soustraire à la constatation desdites infractions est puni de l'amende
prévue pour les contraventions de la cinquième classe.)

Garmin Satellite Navigation systems do not detect speed cameras by
picking up signals from them. Our systems use a database of known fixed
and mobile safety camera locations. These locations are loaded into your
Garmin unit when you do a Safety Camera update. The Garmin device
matches its current location against the list of Safety Camera locations
and sounds an audible warning when you are in the vicinity of one of
the locations. In the same way you can set any 'proximity point? on your
Garmin device and have a warning sound when you are in its vicinity.
Thus Garmin systems do not contravene the law in question and are,
therefore, completely legal.

You may find an independent write up at this address :
http://english.controleradar.org/speed-camera-detector.php

You may find an official French write-up here :
http://www.controleradar.org/detecteur-de-radar.html

The law itself (in French) may be found here : http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affic...ticle=LEGIARTI000006842205&dateTexte=20100319

The French Embassy in the UK gave this assurance :
http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/Cannonball-racers-arrested-by-the.html#outil_sommaire

This law is the same in the other countries that you've mentioned.

Should you wish to remove the individual safety camera files, you can do
so from the POI folder on the Garmin drive.

You can't turn the audible warnings off, for safety camera alerts,
without either having the sound disabled completely, or the safety
camera data disabled completely.

END OF GARMIN INFO

The Cannonball article in the French Embassy article is interesting and note the reference to reduced speed limits on roads in France in wet conditions.

Germany also has reduced speed limits in wet conditions, but these are usually on Autobahns and are always signed. I asked my driving instructor exactly what defined 'wet' for this speed restriction. In Germany, wet is defined as when the vehicle in front leaves a visible track on the wet road surface. I don't know if this is the same definition for France and other EU countries.

I need to speak to the local Police and clarify this rule about GPS Speed Camera Data Base systems, as I am always told that it is illegal to activate them in Germany.

Grey Beard

 

[Bumpkin]

Interesting stuff GB, thanks for sharing.

Active detection and especially jamming are, I'm pretty sure (esp jamming) illegal in the UK.

 

[Grey Beard]

Interesting stuff GB, thanks for sharing.

Active detection and especially jamming are, I'm pretty sure (esp jamming) illegal in the UK.

I remember a legal challenge several years ago (1998) which ruled Radar Detectors legal to use in the UK. I was living in the Rep of Ireland at the time and my MD had a radar detector, which was certainly illegal there.

http://www.radardetectors.co.uk/radar_detector_law.htm

It looks like it is still legal in N Ireland/England & Wales. Not clear about Scotland since laws are sometimes different. Note the table on legality/use of radar detectors/jammers at end of this article. If you were contemplating using such a device, you would do well to check the current legal status, since this article refers to House of Lords debates during 2005.

GPS SCDB Systems however, remain legal.

Grey Beard

 

[Grey Beard]

Following on from the info I received from Garmin Europe, I have done some more research re the situation in Germany and GPS Scamera Database POI.

http://www.germany-tourism.co.uk/EGB/practical_information/13597_13602.htm

Every discussion I have read on the Internet and this link to the German UK tourist Information state that it is illegal to use such a database within Germany. It is OK to have one installed, but it must be deactivated.

http://www.touringandtenting.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32146-sat-nav-speed-cameras/

Punishable with a fine and if you have a German Driving Licence then you also acquire 4 penalty points .

So situation is as follows:

Switzerland - no Swiss Scamera database installed at all.
Germany - Scamera database may be installed but must be deactivated
Ireland (ROI) ? Scamera GPS Database use illegal ??
France - Scamera database legal to install and to use
UK - Scamera database legal to install and to use. It looks like radar & laser speed detection systems may also be legal, but this was under discussion by Parliament during 2005.

Grey Beard

 

[Rasher]

Sticking to the speed limit is legal in most places, and not getting caught has served me well for over twenty years

 

[Grey Beard]

Sticking to the speed limit is legal in most places, and not getting caught has served me well for over twenty years

Yes, I do also stick to the speed limit generally, but especially in built up areas and in zones around schools.

However, sometimes, especially near road works, the speed reduction isn't particularly well signed, or maybe lost in the clutter of other traffic construction signs, or perhaps the construction crews just haven't bothered to sign the restriction properly.

The last time my wife was caught speeding in Germany (a few years back), it was on the autobahn and neither of us saw any speed reduction signs approaching road works, but we both saw the flash high up on an overhead gantry .

Speed cameras are usually placed in critical areas like 30km/h zones outside schools (and then only for 4-5 hours at a time), or at road works. And, in Germany, we don't have the luxury of them being painted with hi viz yellow and black stripes. Indeed they are often concealed in things like Wheelie Garbage Bins or old tree stumps! I did wonder what a wheelie garbage bin was doing on the central reservation of a local autobahn feed road the first time I saw one!!

I do find with the bike, that it is quite easy to go faster than you realise, so exceed the posted limit, but unfortunately the Zumo 660 doesn't give an audible warning, just a change of speed limit sign colour on the screen. (Can't always hear the engine sound over the wind noise). I don't know if Garmin add an audible prompt for the cartographic speed limit data if you install their Safety Camera Database, but could try their free trial.

My other concern with speed cameras is what is the over speed tolerance, which is required to trigger an offence. I think if a policeman stops you in a speed control, you will probably be allowed posted speed limit plus 10% plus 4km/h or thereabouts. But if an automated system is triggered, there are anecdotal reports that the tolerance is close to SFA. I prefer to keep my eyes on the road, rather than watching for small variations around the speed limit. A Safety Camera Warning in such cases is not unreasonable, particularly when you are in unfamiliar territory and extra care is required with road observation, etc.

Grey Beard.