Where does the oil go...

[Magwych]

..on its way to the RHS camshaft?
I seem to be getting excessive wear on the contact face of my cam followers. Chasing the oil back it is sprayed on the followers through orifices in the cam bracket. It gets there through the camshaft and middle bearing. It looks like it feeds to the cam from the rear bearing, having been fed through the bracket from a restricted orifice at the base if the inlet rocker shaft. It gets to the top of the inlet rocker shaft by passing through the bracket from the top of the exhaust rocker shaft, having come up the upper front cylinder head stud.
Is that right?
Any oil flow diagrams out there? I couldn't find one on the RepRom CD, nor on AndyW's pages.
If that is all correct, where does the RHS cam chain tensioner get its oil feed from?

 

[stick]

..on its way to the RHS camshaft?
I seem to be getting excessive wear on the contact face of my cam followers. Chasing the oil back it is sprayed on the followers through orifices in the cam bracket. It gets there through the camshaft and middle bearing. It looks like it feeds to the cam from the rear bearing, having been fed through the bracket from a restricted orifice at the base if the inlet rocker shaft. It gets to the top of the inlet rocker shaft by passing through the bracket from the top of the exhaust rocker shaft, having come up the upper front cylinder head stud.
Is that right?
Any oil flow diagrams out there? I couldn't find one on the RepRom CD, nor on AndyW's pages.
If that is all correct, where does the RHS cam chain tensioner get its oil feed from?

May be bollocks but I always start the bike off the side stand so that the oil is level on start up . I'm sure someone will berate this but , I had no wear issues with my 30,000 miler as this was always the way I started the bike from cold.
It always pis..d me off when , looking at bikes at shops , they would start the bike on the side stand and rev the fucker , walk away me thinks , bike salesmen , no fuc all .
Again , the oil may take longer to get back in the system after being on the side stand on the rhs pot , may be wrong

 

[cookie]

^^^^ it is bollocks,

apart from revving a presumably cold engine.

 

[stick]

^^^^ it is bollocks,

apart from revving a presumably cold engine.

I knew it ....... I'm a c..t

 

[JerseyNeil]

Yeah but your our c..t

I'm with you mate. always climb on pull it upright before firing it up...... and ride away straight away but gently till the engine is warm. I tend to keep my bikes for years and ride them every day. So far so good. So what if it's all in the mind. That's just as important as hard cold facts

 

[littleredrooster]

...Again , the oil may take longer to get back in the system after being on the side stand on the rhs pot , may be wrong

Bugger!! Must remember to turn the wife's Fiat Panda upside-down before I start it next time so the oil is nearer the cylinders...

 

[stick]

Thankyou Jerseyneil ..........I feel better now

 

[stick]

Bugger!! Must remember to turn the wife's Fiat Panda upside-down before I start it next time so the oil is nearer the cylinders...

But that's why Australian cars last longer ..........as they are upside down ..numpty

 

[Bendy toy]

The older smaller Fiat Punto and Panda share the same 1200 engine and gearbox. When the clutch is replaced, the gearbox input bearings should always be checked. UK cars seem to suffer bearing failure much more than mainland european cars. One theory is that UK cars suffer because road camber leaves them parked with LH side down so the oil level is naturally lower at the gearbox input end. In Continental Europe parked cars sit with the RHS lower so the oil sits higher at the gearbox input end.

So there is (probably) some point to starting the engine with the vehicle level. Its not possible with a car but its easy with a bike so why take the risk?

Its also bad for any engine to leave it ticking over and even more harmful to do so when it's cold. Unloaded parts rattle about and wear faster. Climb on, start it and ride away. Ride with no slogging or thrashing until its fully warm. My last bike was always treated like that and there was no measurable wear on the cams when clearances were checked at 75K miles. So the BM gets the same treatment.

 

[snaponphil]

I also stand my bike upright before starting, not always but I cringe at myself when I don't, the first few seconds can't possibly get much splash protection until the oil is under pressure at the restricted camshaft areas.

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

Back to the OP..............

What makes you think it's an oil supply problem? Could it not be a faulty follower/cam with failed case hardening?

I'm guessing that if the follower is wron there may be some pick up on the cam (or the other way around)?

Andres

 

[Packer]

I seem to recall seeing a picture, possibly on Advrider.com, that showed the oil feed gallery coming up through the cylinder. Don't know what route it takes to get there.

I almost always leave my bike on the centre stand, leave a boxer on a side stand and the oil will likely drain down from the high cylinder.

 

[Bendy toy]

I almost always leave my bike on the centre stand, leave a boxer on a side stand and the oil will likely drain down from the high cylinder.

Mine is always on the side stand (centre stand removed). If oil drainage was a problem it would smoke when first started. It never does.

 

[Hman]

personally i dont think it matters whether its on the side or center sand. just dont abuse the engine when cold.

 

[Magwych]

Back to the OP..............

What makes you think it's an oil supply problem? Could it not be a faulty follower/cam with failed case hardening?

I'm guessing that if the follower is wron there may be some pick up on the cam (or the other way around)?

Andres

Hi Andres.

I have typed a response to this 3 times now, I hope this one doesn't disappear like others - damn TapaTwat!

I had a lot of noise for right hand head, bit like a loose tappet or too much end play on the rockers. Each time I checked both there was barely an adjustmet be made, but it always seemed a bit better, for a while. I finally pulle dteh camshaft carrier bracket to check the folowers and found they were worn to a trench about 1mm deep across their faces where the cam lobe swept across them. Aha! I thought, so put new ones in, liberal sluices of oil on assembly and voila, noises gone. For a while.
I then had closer look at the rocker shafts, they were quite shiny on the wear side, so I replaced them. Liberal sluices of oil, reassemble, and much better , for a while.
Next I replaced the cam, the carrier and rockers for low mileage parts from Sherlock's. Liberally oiled etc, peace and quite, for a while...
So, checked out the state of al parts again, no discernable wear since assembly, cm chain tensioner piston showed shadowin on the side, wo new tensioner put in. Liberal, etc .. for a while ...

I thought it might be knocking, because it does seem to be more prevalent on 95 RON than 97. So I switched primary coils, and knock sensors from right to left. Noises are still on the right, when they occur.

The noises are not always there, sometimes it is noisy when hot, sometimes when cold, sometimes not at all. Sometimes it runs like a sewing machine, sometimes it feels like a cement mixer (, quite a fast one) with bricks in it.

One thing I do know is that when I had the clutch replaced by an independent BMW "specialist" a lot of torching was done on teh rear sub frame mounting bolts. The paint at the base of the barrel is scorched off in the vicinity of the RHS tensioner. I am wondering if there is a chance a seal or sealing compound, could have degraded during the heating and partially blocked an oilway.

Anyone concerned about the oil draing out of the right habd head should take it apart and have close look at how oil is pooled behind the camshaft and in front of the cam buckets. If the oil drains back down the galleries and past the pump there is a problem with the pump.

 

[snelly]

Hi Andres.

I have typed a response to this 3 times now, I hope this one doesn't disappear like others - damn TapaTwat!

I had a lot of noise for right hand head, bit like a loose tappet or too much end play on the rockers. Each time I checked both there was barely an adjustmet be made, but it always seemed a bit better, for a while. I finally pulle dteh camshaft carrier bracket to check the folowers and found they were worn to a trench about 1mm deep across their faces where the cam lobe swept across them. Aha! I thought, so put new ones in, liberal sluices of oil on assembly and voila, noises gone. For a while.
I then had closer look at the rocker shafts, they were quite shiny on the wear side, so I replaced them. Liberal sluices of oil, reassemble, and much better , for a while.
Next I replaced the cam, the carrier and rockers for low mileage parts from Sherlock's. Liberally oiled etc, peace and quite, for a while...
So, checked out the state of al parts again, no discernable wear since assembly, cm chain tensioner piston showed shadowin on the side, wo new tensioner put in. Liberal, etc .. for a while ...

I thought it might be knocking, because it does seem to be more prevalent on 95 RON than 97. So I switched primary coils, and knock sensors from right to left. Noises are still on the right, when they occur.

The noises are not always there, sometimes it is noisy when hot, sometimes when cold, sometimes not at all. Sometimes it runs like a sewing machine, sometimes it feels like a cement mixer (, quite a fast one) with bricks in it.

One thing I do know is that when I had the clutch replaced by an independent BMW "specialist" a lot of torching was done on teh rear sub frame mounting bolts. The paint at the base of the barrel is scorched off in the vicinity of the RHS tensioner. I am wondering if there is a chance a seal or sealing compound, could have degraded during the heating and partially blocked an oilway.

Anyone concerned about the oil draing out of the right habd head should take it apart and have close look at how oil is pooled behind the camshaft and in front of the cam buckets. If the oil drains back down the galleries and past the pump there is a problem with the pump.

To be honest,i,m more concerned about engines that don,t rattle a bit, no tappet noise means no clearance,means burnt valves,means fucked head.My ZZR had slightly pitted cam shafts at 5000 mls.It still has slightly pitted camshafts at 95000 mls.I may be lucky,but i like to think it,s down to oil and filter changes every 3000,very few short rides,and caning the fuckin shit out of it at every opportunity. As for a quiet GS, in yer dreams.

 

[Bendy toy]

Some Japanese engines have an O ring in the cylinder head gasket around oil ways. It should be something like Viton so should cope with extreme heat. But you never know. With all the stuff that has been replaced the only option now is to remove the head and barrel and make 100% sure the oil ways are all clean.

BTW the best way to shift seized bolts is with arc weld or a cordon rod direct onto the bolt head or nut. The extreme heat gets exactly where its needed and with decent thermal mats, there should be (virtually) no collateral burning. The BIG issue is the potential for electrical damage. Everything sensitive should be unplugged which on a BMW is a lot of bits, not to mention the battery and alternator.

 

[Sgt Bilco]

To be honest,i,m more concerned about engines that don,t rattle a bit, no tappet noise means no clearance,means burnt valves,means fucked head.My ZZR had slightly pitted cam shafts at 5000 mls.It still has slightly pitted camshafts at 95000 mls.I may be lucky,but i like to think it,s down to oil and filter changes every 3000,very few short rides,and caning the fuckin shit out of it at every opportunity. As for a quiet GS, in yer dreams.

I think you have it pretty much right there. My GSA sounds like a washing machine full of spanners on start up, makes all sorts of noises and has done for over 100k. I just wear ear plugs which quietens it all down Oil is changed regularly though.

Where oil goes in a a boxer engine in a mystery I reckon. I occasionally get a blast of blue smoke out of the exhaust which I guess is a bit of oil staying somewhere it shouldn't. This is generally when it's been very hot and it's been left on the side stand for 30 minutes or so. I've asked a few grown ups and no-one really knows so I don't bother too much about it

 

[Magwych]

Hi Sarge,
I know what you mean, it started to be more noticeable around the 80,000 mile mark; its now on 118,000 and hasn't got worse, nor better. I think, TBH, that my concern is losing the RHS exhaust valve. It seems that if anything gives on the valve train it is that. You rarely see right hand head or components on EBay.
If it does go I'll try dropping a used TwinCam in...

 

[snelly]

I think you have it pretty much right there. My GSA sounds like a washing machine full of spanners on start up, makes all sorts of noises and has done for over 100k. I just wear ear plugs which quietens it all down Oil is changed regularly though.

Where oil goes in a a boxer engine in a mystery I reckon. I occasionally get a blast of blue smoke out of the exhaust which I guess is a bit of oil staying somewhere it shouldn't. This is generally when it's been very hot and it's been left on the side stand for 30 minutes or so. I've asked a few grown ups and no-one really knows so I don't bother too much about it

I know where your coming from with that blast of blue smoke,my 1100 GS will sometimes do the same when the Engine dos,nt catch first time. The bikes only done 25000mls so there,s plenty of time for it to sort itself out.