Xenon's emitted heat, how much compared to a regular halogen?
- Thread starter Tsiklonaut
- Start date
Dietmar
Guest
Maybe that there is a little misunderstanding.
You've talked about the headlamp of the 1150 and I talked about the 1200.
What do you mean with your statement ?
Even if I had the final say in the EC rules, will you follow then ?
As I stated earlier that HID might became legal even for motorbikes.
Hopefully I will be one of the first legal ones.
Maybe there are some (professional) reasons that in this case I have to be according ECE rules.
Regards
Dietmar
You've talked about the headlamp of the 1150 and I talked about the 1200.
What do you mean with your statement ?
Even if I had the final say in the EC rules, will you follow then ?
As I stated earlier that HID might became legal even for motorbikes.
Hopefully I will be one of the first legal ones.
Maybe there are some (professional) reasons that in this case I have to be according ECE rules.
Regards
Dietmar
Cole
Registered user
I have noticed on the continent (from speaking to German and Dutch mates) that there is a much stricter interpretation of the rules. I think in the UK, people operate a lot more on a "common sense" basis and a lot less on "the rules".
Plenty of Dutch and German guys have looked at my HIDs and said "wow, its an amazing increase in light - you can see twice as much - its great - I wish I could have something like that" ... and then followed it up with ... "we could never do that here".
So while they happily admit the increase in light performance, and safety, they are afraid of "the rules", and choose to follow "the rules" rather than do what actually makes more sense. Its a german steroetype that they follow rules to the letter, but having worked in a german bank, and dealing with colleagues in Frankfurt everyday, I can confirm that the stereotype exists because it is reality.
LED lights for example are not yet approved for headlight use under ECE regulations, but that doesnt mean they are crap, or dangerous, or faulty, or not better than lights currently approved .... Its just a paperwork and procedural issue that they havent been considered before and so havent yet been approved. (Audi and Rolls already have vehicles out in the US with LED dipped beams, but for the rest of the world they run HID burners). Everyone knows LED headlights are now good, and that they will be approved later this year by the ECE. But a German would be unlikely to use them, because technically they have not yet been approved ... even though everyone knows they will be.
I think if the police pulled someone over in the UK for having a HID burner in his factory fitted Halogen bulb socket, you would have to laugh in his face and say "havent you got more important things to do mate ... like catching evil-doers". Its a vastly different culture.
Plenty of Dutch and German guys have looked at my HIDs and said "wow, its an amazing increase in light - you can see twice as much - its great - I wish I could have something like that" ... and then followed it up with ... "we could never do that here".
So while they happily admit the increase in light performance, and safety, they are afraid of "the rules", and choose to follow "the rules" rather than do what actually makes more sense. Its a german steroetype that they follow rules to the letter, but having worked in a german bank, and dealing with colleagues in Frankfurt everyday, I can confirm that the stereotype exists because it is reality.
LED lights for example are not yet approved for headlight use under ECE regulations, but that doesnt mean they are crap, or dangerous, or faulty, or not better than lights currently approved .... Its just a paperwork and procedural issue that they havent been considered before and so havent yet been approved. (Audi and Rolls already have vehicles out in the US with LED dipped beams, but for the rest of the world they run HID burners). Everyone knows LED headlights are now good, and that they will be approved later this year by the ECE. But a German would be unlikely to use them, because technically they have not yet been approved ... even though everyone knows they will be.
I think if the police pulled someone over in the UK for having a HID burner in his factory fitted Halogen bulb socket, you would have to laugh in his face and say "havent you got more important things to do mate ... like catching evil-doers". Its a vastly different culture.
Where does one get hid's for £40.00. ?.
dave gs.
I used Matin of ebay. He was a bit slow with the delivery and his communication was bad at first but I have had a few lengthy chats with him now and he seems to be sorting it out. If you mention UKGS'er then he will take special care of ya now.
His kit was £80 for two bulbs and two ballasts. Either do your HI and lo beams, or get a friend with a similar GS to have the other half of the kit. That's what Rollinsdan and I did and we are happy with the result. Expect 3 week delivery but big saving.
Deitmar, as you know, I will not be following the EC rules even if you do have the final say. I think Colebatch sums it up very well, we are definately from different cultures. Be glad I'm not spanish, they flaunt the rules so badly that they probably wouldn't think twice about strapping a set of football stadium floodlights to their bikes!!!!!!!
Cole
Registered user
.... strapping a set of football stadium floodlights to their bikes!!!!!!!
Well those would actually be HIDs too ... Metal halide lamps most likely....
Still not ECE approved ... You'd be able to use them in Spain, probably in France and maybe in Belgium, but as soon as you cross the Rhine, you would be pulled over.
Dietmar
Guest
Besides cultural aspects of the people (which are present as everybody knows) there is also a different treatment of the officals (police, technical inspection). In case of being involved into an accident even if not guilty you have a high risk here to take some portion of the costs if your bike/car has a non legal modification which might have had an influence to the accident.
Another example: the are regularely bike checks of the police in the nurburgring area. If they find a bike to be more "soundy" as written in the registration (plus tolerance) they will confiscate your exhaust pipe even if it will be a type with an ECE approval.
And in my case there is another aspect.
I know what effort has to be spend at a lamp manufacturer to build up a reflector. There are a lot of simulations to get the best light distribution within the legal frames.
Installing a different light source, e.g. a HID burner with an arc instead of a bulb filamen you will definitely dazzle !
However you are not the victim of this...
Don't think we are all stupid and will follow rules as a cow.
Regards
Dietmar
Another example: the are regularely bike checks of the police in the nurburgring area. If they find a bike to be more "soundy" as written in the registration (plus tolerance) they will confiscate your exhaust pipe even if it will be a type with an ECE approval.
And in my case there is another aspect.
I know what effort has to be spend at a lamp manufacturer to build up a reflector. There are a lot of simulations to get the best light distribution within the legal frames.
Installing a different light source, e.g. a HID burner with an arc instead of a bulb filamen you will definitely dazzle !
However you are not the victim of this...
Don't think we are all stupid and will follow rules as a cow.
Regards
Dietmar
Dietmar
Guest
How could a German or even you use something which isn't on the market yet ?
Yes, there are few LED headlamps in the US according to the SAE rules (OOPS).
Yes, the LED aren't in the ECE rules yet.
As HIDs were before they are modified for automotive use (from Germans ?!).
Ans by the way: LED lights are currently not as good as you describes.
The technology is still too expensive to gain the same performance as bulbs.
But they will come and will replace HID in the future, especially because of
the design variety and easy distribution for intelligent light patterns.
Regards
Dietmar
I still disagree that they dazzle when set upcorrectly.
The reflector is a difficult thing to design, this I would definately agree with as I know a number of people in the automotive industy. It is a job for a skilled and highly qualified individual, who is patient and very analytical.
Unfortunately BM gave the job to the YTS monkey who was blind and wearing sunglasses
I think we should agree to disagree on this one Deitmar. You don't have HID and I do.Having experienced the results I have to say you are wrong but you will not accept this. I used 4600k lights which give a very white light (no blueness), you should try these because the police would be less likely to notice.
Hello Dietmar.
If you are in Scotland at any time give me a pm.
I think that by seeing for yourself how effectively the standard BMW light deals with the HID lamp and how precisely it cuts the dip beam, almost like a knife edge and every bit as good as the factory fit HIDs on my previous Renault Espace, you will then believe. As for the head beam, well if there was a power cut at a football stadium a couple of dozen Tossers wth HID's would solve the problem if we could just get them up the masts
The major problem with being dazzled, at least here in Scotland, is poorly maintained and repaired cars with lights that are obviously mis-aligned or even wrongly wired after repairs so that they have one dip beam and one head beam burning at the same time.
I would however accept that it is important for the rider to ensure that he adjusts the lights and rear suspension before every trip when carrying a load different to that for which the lights were originally set up.
Dietmar
Guest
Thanks for the invitation, I actually don't know if I ever will visit Scotland with my bike (you are driving on the wrong side
). For this year Sardegna is planned.The conversion isn't not a question of believing.
I worked with Xenons since 1989 (maybe my location gives a hint).
But its true that I haven't mounted a HID burner into my R1200GS headlamp yet. Maybe I will do it in the next days if that ugly rain stopps.
Personally I have a Bi-Xenon module ready which I like to mount at my GS if it will be legal (maybe a little bit earlier as I converted my Astra G...).
The biggest problem for night driving is in fact that static alignment in curves.
Your visibility range decreases that much especially if your eyes adapted to a high illumination before (xenon).
So I'm looking for a mechanism which will turn the module clockwise or ccw.
Sensors could be standard ultrasonic sensors aligned to the sides...
Regards
Dietmar
Cole
Registered user
I never said LED headlights were as good as HIDs. I simply said that the fact they are not ECE approved does not mean they are not good as lights that are approved. If they are good enough to be approved for use in the US, as Audi and Rolls Royce use them, its a safe bet that while they are expensive, they must also be good enough to be used on premium branded European vehicles sold in the US - so its pretty unlikely that they are no good. Is that a fair comment?
Similarly, the fact that HIDs are not yet on the approved list of light sources for 2 wheeled vehicles is not a function of them being less suitable. Its simply a function of motorcycle manufacturers havent got around to lobbying to have them included. As you will know, getting approval takes a lot of time and cash.
I would also add that just because a particular light source is approved, does not mean it wont dazzle. Obviously loads of headlights out there are incorrectly aligned. (I have never heard of an insurance claim being denied for incorrectly alighned regualr halogen lights, even though technically incorrectly aligned headlights make the vehicle unroadworthy, and illegal). But far beyond that, the error rates in manufacture means loads of correctly aligned bulbs issue too much glare, and fail to focus light properly. (again I have never heard of an insurance claim being denied due to a regular halogen bulb being outside the ECE defined tolerances)
Why "definately"? I have installed HID H11s into the projector cutoff fog lights that come with the GSA12, and I can assure you there is not even the slightest hint of a dazzle. ZERO. I admit there is some minimal glare from the dipped beam H7, and it is clear that HID conversions work more accurately in projector lights than in reflector lights, but to say there will "definately be dazzle" is plainly false.
I dont know if you have ever looked close up at a HID conversion burner, but the light source is in the same place. The guys that design the HID conversion burners dont just slap a burner on a base and thats it, they actually design the converters to have the burners in the exact same place and to within the same tolerances as the filament bulbs. There are sufficient tolerances in the ECE specifications for the placement of filaments to more than take into account that there is a slight arc to the HID light source . (The exception is H4 bulbs, where yes, most HID conversions have the light source in an incorrect position)
If you want to get an idea about how ECE approved bulbs fail to meet manufacturing standards and the resulting glare, read this bulb test (you will need to register, but its free)
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/products/products/203966/bulb_test_h4_plus_50_per_cent.html
Half the bulbs they tested were untestable as they fell too far outside specifications to even test.
No-one is saying you are stupid, but reality is Germans do "follow the rules", often regardless of how stupid they are. I read recently that over half of europe's GPS navigation problems come from Germans who pressed the "shortest route" calculation on their GPS units, and follow them through fields, and then get stuck in forests. When asked about it, ADAC replied that they thought it was because Germans follow instructions too blindly.
Dont get me wrong I really like Germany, and Germans, and I know enough of them to know that they have differences to the english. One of those differences is a penchant for "following the rules" rather than thinking about things. Its why Germans make such excellent factory workers and excellent engineers. And why I have a German Motorcycle and a German car.
Dietmar
Guest
LED / SAE:
First lets say that I wasn't personally involved into that legal staff and it's history. In general SAE is less formal than ECE, lets say it in a formula (don't know if it's wrong): Everything in SAE is allowed if it's not forbidden viceversa everything in ECE is forbidden if it's not allowed.
Therefore LEDs (even with a lower performance) are allowed in SAE.
There are also lower requirements regarding lens cleaning as well as automatic headlamp levelling.
In fact most of the headlamps are design and not light performance driven.
So LED installation in the US...
Light source / Homologation:
It is a question of combination of light source and reflector.
You are right that the combination H4 and HID is the worst but even H7 and HID where the location of the light source is nearly the same will lead to dazzling.
Reason (easy spoken): For high performance headlamps there is a computer aided design process where thousands of small images of the light source are added to build up the light distribution. Due to different dephts within a reflector there are also bigger images to place. For a good performance a lot of images where placed very closed to the cutoff line without exceeding it to keep dazzling within the legal frame.
This can be done very easy for a filamen because of the sharp-edged shape- this is also the reason for the mentioned bulb test where low cost bulbs will fail, their filamen is only nearly in the same position.
The burner instead has an arc which hasn't a rectangular shape because of the arcs heat, so it will be in the middle at the top of the arcs room (sorry I am at my personal limits for the expressions). Projecting such an arc instead of a filamen will exceed the limits of the cutoff line definetly.
Therefore the reflector has to be designed for an arc to get an optimal performance withion the legal frame. Maybe a special (not all) conversion kit together with a R1200GS reflector will keep the values but this would be an excemption of the rule.
Unfortunately I can't do the measurement to prove it.
And I can't imagine how somebody can "design the converters to have the burners in the exact same place and to within the same tolerances as the filament bulbs".
Hopefully the conference in Geneva this spring will open the door for Xenon on our bikes http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2006/wp29gre/ECE-TRANS-WP29-GRE-2006-46e.pdf
Best regards
Dietmar
P.S: I have to mention that ally my statements are my private opinion !
First lets say that I wasn't personally involved into that legal staff and it's history. In general SAE is less formal than ECE, lets say it in a formula (don't know if it's wrong): Everything in SAE is allowed if it's not forbidden viceversa everything in ECE is forbidden if it's not allowed.
Therefore LEDs (even with a lower performance) are allowed in SAE.
There are also lower requirements regarding lens cleaning as well as automatic headlamp levelling.
In fact most of the headlamps are design and not light performance driven.
So LED installation in the US...
Light source / Homologation:
It is a question of combination of light source and reflector.
You are right that the combination H4 and HID is the worst but even H7 and HID where the location of the light source is nearly the same will lead to dazzling.
Reason (easy spoken): For high performance headlamps there is a computer aided design process where thousands of small images of the light source are added to build up the light distribution. Due to different dephts within a reflector there are also bigger images to place. For a good performance a lot of images where placed very closed to the cutoff line without exceeding it to keep dazzling within the legal frame.
This can be done very easy for a filamen because of the sharp-edged shape- this is also the reason for the mentioned bulb test where low cost bulbs will fail, their filamen is only nearly in the same position.
The burner instead has an arc which hasn't a rectangular shape because of the arcs heat, so it will be in the middle at the top of the arcs room (sorry I am at my personal limits for the expressions). Projecting such an arc instead of a filamen will exceed the limits of the cutoff line definetly.
Therefore the reflector has to be designed for an arc to get an optimal performance withion the legal frame. Maybe a special (not all) conversion kit together with a R1200GS reflector will keep the values but this would be an excemption of the rule.
Unfortunately I can't do the measurement to prove it.
And I can't imagine how somebody can "design the converters to have the burners in the exact same place and to within the same tolerances as the filament bulbs".
Hopefully the conference in Geneva this spring will open the door for Xenon on our bikes http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2006/wp29gre/ECE-TRANS-WP29-GRE-2006-46e.pdf
Best regards
Dietmar
P.S: I have to mention that ally my statements are my private opinion !
Cole
Registered user
Thanks Dietmar ... I would note that in a series of H4 bulb tests done by Auto express, not just the ones listed (you can search their site for their series of bulb tests), it was not only cheap bulb makers that failed to produce bulbs with the filament in the correct position. GE, PIAA, Osram and Philips all had failures, with PIAA and GE even having 2 out of 2 PREMIUM (£20 a pair) bulbs failing some tests.
Your Hella bulbs were not tested, but if Philips, Osram, PIAA and GE all have very high errors in manufacture there is no reason to suggest Hella would not have exactly the same issues. Its not just a "cheap bulb" issue. All the premium bulb manufactures have high error rates for simple things like filament position. When that is the case, arguing whether the light source is a thin rectangle or a slight arc is being very pedantic. The CAD reflector was designed for a light source in a precise point. Its clear that manufacturing reality means that the light source is never in the exact place it was designed to be.
I am not disagreeing with your arguments, but I am saying they are purely theoretical, and real world errors in filament position (even with premium bulbs) are likely to result in errors greater than errors causes by a slight curvature in the light source.
Now, since you are at Hella, can you please help me out with a couple of questions....
(1) Why do Hella not sell the "Optilux" range in Europe?
(2) Why do Hella make the Micro DE halogen lights only available in "fog light" beam? They make a driving light beam, but its only available with HID light behind it.
And yes I look forward to the changes from the ECE. Lets be honest, there is no need to "hope" for the changes. Do you really think there is any chance they will reject the proposal? Of course not. There are no good reasons to reject them.
Dietmar
Guest
@Colebatch
Here are some replies:
Hella doesn't manufacture bulbs. They were mainly from some premium brands mentioned above.
I don't know why Optilux wasn't sold in Europe anymore. You have to know that Hella consists of 3 branches: Lighting, Electronics and After Sales. And after sales and especially their history is quite far away for me.
Micro DE were not available as halogen driving beam in the current catalogue.
Due to the small size I can imagine that they would have a very poor performance as halogen driving lights. Maybe thats the reason.
In the 2006 catalogue there are Premium line driving lights (50 mm diameter) with an H9 bulb in SAE/ECE spec : 1KL 009 486-001
I personally believe that there will be some positive result maybe not this spring. Think about the bikes already on the market (LT, GT)...
It seems that they will also talk about one of my ideas
rob ):
mouting daytime running lights on bikes.
Especially my 2005 R1200GS would need a reduction of electrical power consumption to keep the ABS in the Alps alive
Regards
Dietmar
Here are some replies:
Hella doesn't manufacture bulbs. They were mainly from some premium brands mentioned above.
I don't know why Optilux wasn't sold in Europe anymore. You have to know that Hella consists of 3 branches: Lighting, Electronics and After Sales. And after sales and especially their history is quite far away for me.
Micro DE were not available as halogen driving beam in the current catalogue.
Due to the small size I can imagine that they would have a very poor performance as halogen driving lights. Maybe thats the reason.
In the 2006 catalogue there are Premium line driving lights (50 mm diameter) with an H9 bulb in SAE/ECE spec : 1KL 009 486-001
I personally believe that there will be some positive result maybe not this spring. Think about the bikes already on the market (LT, GT)...
It seems that they will also talk about one of my ideas
rob ):mouting daytime running lights on bikes.
Especially my 2005 R1200GS would need a reduction of electrical power consumption to keep the ABS in the Alps alive
Regards
Dietmar
Cole
Registered user
0000quattro
Guest
Well those would actually be HIDs too ... Metal halide lamps most likely....
Still not ECE approved ... You'd be able to use them in Spain, probably in France and maybe in Belgium, but as soon as you cross the Rhine, you would be pulled over.
Well, disregarding the comments about what spaniards would do or not do (as I don't personally consider included in that group), I can only say that as soon as you cross the pirinees you can get in trouble as well; police here (at least in Catalunya, were we have a different police) is getting really picky (for obvious reasons, I'll avoid using other words wich would define that more closely) with those small-common sense things like HID, wich don't follow the rule so close but are actually much better....
The bad thing is maybe Germans do respect the rules because they believe in them, and I must say the way they do things, theyr rules are more likely to make sense than ours; but police here are not interested in that, they appear to be only interested in s*****g you up....
