Yes or no. Scottish residents only please

[Den]

I love it, a disgruntled ex-government employee (he was sacked as ambassador to Uzbekistan), who left his (Scottish?) wife and two children to marry a women he met in an Uzbekistan lap dancing club, talking about the moralities of the government

I wouldn't trust his word more than any other politicians.

Hardly just an 'employee'.... but of course, he is morally corrupt and his statements completely false because he happens to have left his wife and kids.
Nobody is perfect, but if you choose to ignore what he says because of what he did to his family, thats up to you. Live in self imposed ignorance.
I dont know the man. I had never heard of him before. But the good thing about the internet is that you see things which would never be on the news, and rarely seen in the bias papers.
A lot of them are rubbish, and get proven to be rubbish. If someone can prove that this former diplomat is lying, do it. But dont just ignore the importance of his claims because his personal life isn't perfect.

And it IS relevant to the referendum. It shows the present, and former governments to be liars and warmongering profiteering bastards. I'm not saying that we will be free from corruption or career politicians, but we must try to distance ourselves from Westminster.


About Craig Murray
Craig Murray is an author, broadcaster and human rights activist. He was British Ambassador to Uzbekistan from August 2002 to October 2004 and Rector of the University of Dundee from 2007 to 2010.

Personal Biography:

Craig Murray was born in West Runton in October 1958 and educated at Sheringham Primary and Paston Grammar schools.

He graduated from the University of Dundee in 1982 with a MA (Hons) 1st Class in Modern History.

From 1982 to 1984 he was President of Dundee University Students Association and he was a member of Dundee’s tournament winning Granada TV University Challenge team in 1983.

Professional Biography:

In 1984 he joined the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. As a member of the Diplomatic Service his responsibilities included the following:

1986-9 Second Secretary, Commercial, British High Commission, Lagos

Responsible for promoting British exports to, and business interests in, Nigeria.

1989-92 Head of Maritime Section, FCO, London

Responsible for negotiation of the UK and Dependent Territory continental shelf and fisheries boundaries, for implementation of the Channel Tunnel treaty and for negotiations on the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea. From August 1990 to August 1991 he was also head of the FCO Section of the Embargo Surveillance Centre, responsible for intelligence analysis on Iraqi attempts at evading sanctions, particularly in the field of weapons procurement, and with providing information to UK military forces and to other governments to effect physical enforcement of the embargo.

1992-4 Head of Cyprus Section, FCO London

Responsible for UN negotiations on the Cyprus dispute, relations with the government of Cyprus and for the mandate and requirements of the British contingent of the UN force in Cyprus,

1994-7 First Secretary (Political and Economic), British Embassy, Warsaw

Head of the Political and Economic sections of our Embassy in Poland. Responsible for relations with Poland, and assisting Poland’s post-communist transition process with reference to preparation for EU membership.

1997-8 Deputy Head, Africa Department (Equatorial), Foreign and Commonwealth Office

Responsible for British political and commercial relationships with West Africa, including development issues.

1998-2002 Deputy High Commissioner, British High Commission, West Africa Branch

Responsible for British economic, political, commercial and aid relationships with Ghana and Togo. In Autumn 1998 Craig Murray was the UK Representative at the Sierra Leone Peace talks held in Togo, Liberia and Sierra Leone, including direct negotiation with the RUF terrorist leadership.

2002-2004 British Ambassador, Uzbekistan

Responsible for our relationship with Uzbekistan. He found Western support for the dictatorial Karimov regime unconscionable, as detailed in the rest of this website.

At the 2005 UK General Election, Craig Murray takes on Foreign Secretary Jack Straw in Blackburn as an Independent candidate, winning 2,082 votes.

 

[trebor]

.......

About Craig Murray

......

The point I was making is that he calls into question the morals of the UK government, yet his own morals are hardly whiter than white. Looking into the details leading up to his sacking he was recalled to face many charges that related to corruption in his embassy, granted nearly all these charges were dropped but there is no publicly disclosed reason for why they were dropped (that I can find). It could be said that the alegations against him were unsubstantiated, just as are the allegations made against the government in the video you provided a link to, If they were substantiated he, and the Yes campaign, would have produced them in that video.

I stick with my opinion in my last post, he is a disgruntled employee trying to get his own back.

Fortunately it doesn't matter if I ignore what he says because I have no say in the independance referendum, but perhaps you guys North of the border ought to look very carefully who you are choosing to speak out in aid of Yes campaign, especially after all the crap the Yes campaign have spouted regarding corruption in Westminster, your representatives need to be whiter than white.

 

[Deleted account 210516001]

And of course all the Yes campaigners are paragons of truth bucked up with rigorous research. This is the latest quote from the leading cancer surgeon backing the yes claims that a No vote put the NHS in Scotland at risk after she was found out regarding cancer operations being cancelled.

"Dr Whitford, 55, from Ayrshire, admitted she had no proof of her allegations and hadn’t checked them out before making them.

“It is not something I have investigated,” she said. “It was simply on the basis of what this surgeon had told me in conversation. He said that was the talk in the hospital that he was starting in.”

The quote from the boss of the hospital she was talking about sums up the yes campaign's NHS scares. "her claims are “codswallop” and “a load of crap”.

I have always said that being asked to vote yes was a leap of faith but I had a certain admiration for those supporters willing to make that leap of faith knowing that it might end up costing them and their families money. I have zero admiration for politicians who have tried to counter what they call the project fear of the No campaign by drumming up a totally bogus bigger fear regarding the demise of the NHS in Scotland. This smacks of panic in the face of the realisation that they have not come up with a convincing enough vision of an independent Scotland to convince the majority. What do people fear more than being skint? Being ill.

In fact they have come up with a convincing vision of how they would like an independent Scotland to be but failed miserably to explain in convincing terms how they are to pay for that vision.

 

[gerarddwatts]

And they are making that leap on a set of promises based on deceit, obfuscation, and fantasy.

What is impressive is ecks ability to make normally intelligent people abandon reason and believe his nonsense, taking Scotland to shamdependence, where we, the Scottish people, will sacrifice our ability to govern financial and economic policy; the Bank of England will govern every facet of Scottish monetary policy and we will have no say at all. Another bizarre reality attempting to promote a bizarre adventure.

50 years in the coming and no plan for real independence only a few days before we vote.

 

[Den]

Gerry, watch yer blood pressure .... and yer keyboard.

 

[Captain Black]

It's been one blurred and desperate vision for the yes campaign , I mean we've got folk cutting and pasting pro " yes" articles, video, blogs, over and over and over. He said this, they said, that your crap so it must be true ! The Uzbekistan British Ambassador was shagging the local/s one assumes while his wife and kids were out there ? I mean he's just the sort of guy you'd take on his word isn't he. Removed from his post and as such a bitter man.
Your vision of utopia in Scotland after independence is pure and utter fantasy, do you really believe that everyone running the new Scotland will be whiter than white and beyond reproach ?
Good grief your obsession is like a drug that's blurring the edges massively of what your looking at.

This isn't a vote for a new PM, or council leader its a massive massive do or die NO turning back EVER!

Honestly insanity will win the day the way its going. Point scoring on who can post the most pro independence clips, articles, opinions , but opinions of who ?
I think you've lost the plot I really do.

Your obsession really could lead to you crashing and burning, that's the gamble. And it is a huge huge gamble with no guarantees whatsoever ,

 

[Rigormortis]

Apart from disrespecting the terms of the thread as posted by Den at the outset (but that's not reall a surprise), I've said it before, the Internet has created a myth that everyone's opinion is valuable. It isn't. The only ones that are valuable are those that are borne out of intelligence, experience, maturity, kindness, tolerance and liberalism. Besides which as someone who doesn't have a vote, his and all the other opinions of people who are not resident in Scotland are, in this context, nothing more than hot air. The only productive debate might be between people who are entitled to vote and in this case that doesn't apply because there's little prospect of anyone changing their views. However, I think you might benefit from examining your reasons for voting no. Insight is often the road to change.

Utter rubbish, I don't reside in Scotland at this very moment but intend to return one day and I have children as well as grand children living there right now so mine and everyone else's opinion counts. In fact I wish I could vote on my grand childrens behalf.

I know this is a motorcycle forum but this thread isn't about bikes and as far as I'm concerned I'm much more interested in what you folks have to say rather than listen to any politicians feathering their own bed.

 

[Den]

Mr Black, You seem to be the one who is obsessed. Most folk who are posting things, whether it be cut/paste, video's or personal opinions, put them there for informative reasons. To help people decide which way to vote, and yes, to encourage them to vote in the way that suits them.

The more information the better. If it is shot down in flames, it is there for everyone to see. Yes, some of us are passionate about it. Its the future of a formerly independent country we are discussing. But when I read the thread, most of the 'red faced, spitty angry comments' seem to be coming from the NO side, some of you not even having a vote!

Maybe its because we will get to keep all of our paper-round money instead of handing it over to Mum, and getting some back again as 'pocket money', because she knows better and we are too immature to be responsible with it, and Mum is really using it to pay the rent instead of investing it for the future. Maybe not.

I started this thread to get an idea of how reasonably sensible motorbikers in a middleclassish forum might vote. It was in the proper section, and I thought was different to the rest of the threads on the subject. It was part of MY decision process.
Of course , you couldn't even keep your nebs out of that! Trying to fix the result. The REAL result, after much searching was 55 yes 45 no

It has degenerated of course, into another slanging match, which I really don't mind, but rather than showing me how a cross section of Scottish voters might vote, it has instead shown me your deep resentment of the population north of the border.
Fuck you and the horse you rode in on, you are all too ignorant and poor to take a decision on your own, is the message you have shown us. You'de better listen to us and re-evaluate if you know what's good for you, before it's too late.

It's not you who are taking the leap. It's not you who might lose a few quid. Its me, and Gerry etc. If we win, I will be happy. If we lose, Gerry will be happy. Its a democratic vote. The most you will lose (because England is so established and finely honed) is the room in the attic.
The room which you dont heat, rarely visit, and dump your un-needed (but might come in handy sometime) rubbish, will be owned by others. Think of it as a sophisticated ' spare bedroom tax'. You dont need it, so it may be taken from you. You can still use the box room (Wales), and some flat-roofed houses look ok!

I would not imagine that there are many public meetings on the subject taking place in England. I dont think there will be stickers on cars and house windows with yes/no on them all over the Home Counties. So don't insult us by making-out as if you care.

I hope both England and Scotland are successful if a split happens. You are hoping we fail.

 

[Captain Black]

Mr Black, You seem to be the one who is obsessed. Most folk who are posting things, whether it be cut/paste, video's or personal opinions, put them there for informative reasons. To help people decide which way to vote, and yes, to encourage them to vote in the way that suits them.

The more information the better. If it is shot down in flames, it is there for everyone to see. Yes, some of us are passionate about it. Its the future of a formerly independent country we are discussing. But when I read the thread, most of the 'red faced, spitty angry comments' seem to be coming from the NO side, some of you not even having a vote!

Maybe its because we will get to keep all of our paper-round money instead of handing it over to Mum, and getting some back again as 'pocket money', because she knows better and we are too immature to be responsible with it, and Mum is really using it to pay the rent instead of investing it for the future. Maybe not.

I started this thread to get an idea of how reasonably sensible motorbikers in a middleclassish forum might vote. It was in the proper section, and I thought was different to the rest of the threads on the subject. It was part of MY decision process.
Of course , you couldn't even keep your nebs out of that! Trying to fix the result. The REAL result, after much searching was 55 yes 45 no

It has degenerated of course, into another slanging match, which I really don't mind, but rather than showing me how a cross section of Scottish voters might vote, it has instead shown me your deep resentment of the population north of the border.
Fuck you and the horse you rode in on, you are all too ignorant and poor to take a decision on your own, is the message you have shown us. You'de better listen to us and re-evaluate if you know what's good for you, before it's too late.

It's not you who are taking the leap. It's not you who might lose a few quid. Its me, and Gerry etc. If we win, I will be happy. If we lose, Gerry will be happy. Its a democratic vote. The most you will lose (because England is so established and finely honed) is the room in the attic.
The room which you dont heat, rarely visit, and dump your un-needed (but might come in handy sometime) rubbish, will be owned by others. Think of it as a sophisticated ' spare bedroom tax'. You dont need it, so it may be taken from you. You can still use the box room (Wales), and some flat-roofed houses look ok!

I would not imagine that there are many public meetings on the subject taking place in England. I dont think there will be stickers on cars and house windows with yes/no on them all over the Home Counties. So don't insult us by making-out as if you care.

I hope both England and Scotland are successful if a split happens. You are hoping we fail.

Sadly I think you ( you ) will lose because even your countrymen aren't as daft as you. I can't be arsed being " obsessed" and typing chapter and verse to prove you wrong.

If you and your fellow Scots believe good luck to you!

I'll post again after the vote.

You can't even judge your own countrymen much less the other 60 million or so. Foolish !

 

[Captain Black]

PS it's " Captain"

 

[AberdeenAngus]

I'll post again after the vote.

Oo I can't wait. /ignore

 

[Devon]

Apart from disrespecting the terms of the thread as posted by Den at the outset (but that's not reall a surprise), I've said it before, the Internet has created a myth that everyone's opinion is valuable. It isn't. The only ones that are valuable are those that are borne out of intelligence, experience, maturity, kindness, tolerance and liberalism. Besides which as someone who doesn't have a vote, his and all the other opinions of people who are not resident in Scotland are, in this context, nothing more than hot air. The only productive debate might be between people who are entitled to vote and in this case that doesn't apply because there's little prospect of anyone changing their views. However, I think you might benefit from examining your reasons for voting no. Insight is often the road to change.

You might have got a gold star for spelling at school but that seems to be the limit of your abilities. Thinking for yourself isn't a strong point is it? I will continue to express my thoughts on your Scottish Darien type adventure whether you try to stop me or not. Scotland had the chance to vote to become independent but those in the driving seat have crashed the chance because they are a clueless bunch of numpties suffering a lack of grown ups to lead the way. Not that you would have been any better off anyways. The sad thing is you really do believe its "cry freedom" and a vote for "independence" when really it's all about a few sad old gits who haven't got a clue what they want or what they don't even want.........



Plus Gerald is spot on and you are clueless.

 

[gerarddwatts]

GERARD

 

[Devon]

GERARD

Apologises for getting your name wrong Gerard.

 

[Toddy]

This must be worth +10% to YES

http://soccerly.com/article/stevecl...am-under-threat-if-voters-reject-independence

 

[FatAl]

Grinding you down eh?. Well, you see Mr fatal, I started this thread in the Scotland section of this forum, thinking foolishly that it would be mostly Scottish members, or others with an interest in matters pertaining to Scotland.

I did not intend it to be read by non-residents, and because as you know, a yes vote would relieve England of its troublesome, expensive to maintain rainy wasteland, I thought we could just get on with our infighting amongst ourselves. A bit like crossing the street to avoid the idiots.

Sadly not though. Rather than snigger quietly at our silliness, and ignoring us, you choose to join-in! The council estate which is tacked onto the top of your green and pleasant land is knocking itself down for christs sake .... and you are protesting!

You are missing the ADVANTAGES you can have. Imagine being able to scroll down the list of countries when you are booking something on line, and instead of going right to the bottom until you find two pathetic letters 'UK', you can be listed near the top under El Salvador ... 'ENGLAND'. We, would still be down the list near the bottom under Saudi Arabia.

When some greasy foreigner asks are you from? ... The UK? You can now drop the 'the'. Who wants a 'the' prefixing their country? You can now say "I'm from England"

Think of the economic advantages for your poor northern towns. When we have to increase taxes on everything, we will be crossing the border in our droves to by cheaper fags and petrol, paying taxes into your exchequer! "Why-aye, them jocks cleared me shop oot o all me tabs, ahm loaded me"

You can have your cross of St George flying proudly. YOUR flag! Sing out Jerusalem at the top of your voices without bothering about offending anyone. Sing out There'll Always be an England ... and England will be free, with gusto and pride.

Your country will flourish without the drain of us. There will be bluer skies over the white cliffs of Dover, Morris dancing round every corner. Fantastic new submarines in your harbours.

Go for it lads. Dont let us grind you down Mr fatal. Your better than that. You are English. You have paid for us for too long.

You could even have a real Border!! Every country should have a border. You have never had a border for years ... just a beach. I heard a German saying to his pal .. " Ha Ha, zay do not even haf ein border, ve haf nine, poor englanders, zay chust haf beachez unt cliffs".
You could build a state of the art border, with big gates and guards and things.

Think of it. BBC News headlines.
English border guards captured 6 smelly Scottish asylum seekers hiding in the back of a truck today. "we were only looking for a better life in your country", said a bedraggled ginger man, still dressed in the compulsory kilt. "Alex Salmond has re-opened the pits and we have never seen daylight for months."
Immediately recognised as Scots as they had no noses, having cut them off to spite their faces, they were sent back over the border with a boot up the arse after being interrogated.

You only have a few weeks to convince us to vote yes. Dont waste the time.

I have been away on holiday so I have only just read your reply.
I feel I do have a valid interest in this debate, it's outcome is just as important to the rest of the UK as well as Scotland, we will all be affected to some degree. I have Scottish family and friends living in Scotland who are proud to be Scots but also British as well, the outcome will affect them. My next door neighbour is a Scot, he has lived here for forty years but is concerned about the outcome as much for him and his family who live in Dumfrieshire.
I live on the island of Britain, was born in England to parents of English/Irish and English/Scots heritage and brought up in Liverpool. I have a British passport, I considered myself both British and English and even a Scouser. So Den I do consider I have a right to take an interest in the potential break up of my country, and I think you are wrong not necessarily for wanting to vote Yes, but for implying that the rest of us should have no vested interest in the result.
Your reply may have a hint of sarcasm as some have suggested, but sarcasm is often considered a form of wit, so well done you Ooops that's a bit sarcastic of me as well

 

[Devon]

Looking at the latest polls, Your poll seems to be about right Den. The Nats haven't got a clue what they are voting for other then breaking up the union but that seems to be enough for them. If the referendum is 50/50 it will be a very divided future for Scotland, especially if Orkney and Shetland reject joining Scotland as looks likely and go their own way. Still the world will keep turning and after a couple or ten chaotic bitter years things will find a way. If the Unionist win it's hard to believe the UK won't be finished later rather then sooner and I have come around to the break up of the union as have many others from what I read and hear: the rest of the UK surely cannot stand more bribes for Scotland and discrimination against the rest of the UK to keep the UK as it is now?
Good luck for the future in these interesting times

 

[Tim Cullis]

Most of Salmond's weasel arguments are based on greed—that the 5 million Scots will be better off without the rest of the UK. We in the London Metropolitan Area could use the same argument, except that at over 12 million inhabitants we have more twice the population of Scotland, and the wealth that is generated in London is due to hard work, not an accident of where some vegetation died and eventually turned into oil.

What would happen if everyone took this greed route? Maybe God's Own Country (Yorkshire) could go it alone, then Birmingham, Manchester and the rest of the richer areas. With only the poor areas of the UK left the Welsh would be queuing up for the soup kitchens.

My Scottish wife is disenfranchised because she lives in England, as do two of her sisters, as do some of the Scottish regiments, as do the Scots in Corby. This was a deliberate exclusion as these Scots were far more likely to vote 'no'. And how come English, Welsh and Northern Irish don't get a say in this?

Cameron did the UK a great disservice in agreeing such biased terms with Salmond. Normally a 75% majority is required when voting on major constitutional matters. On the other hand, if Scotland gets independence and the Scottish Labour MPs leave Parliament, Labour will never, ever, see power again in Westminster, so maybe that is his agenda.

Good point, Andy, about Orkney and Shetland—and the Outer Hebrides for that matter. They definitely don't regard themselves as Scottish.

If the Yes side succeed I predict an awful lot of bad feelings towards the Scots and an immediate post-vote knock-on effect—UK companies pulling out, private investors pulling out. The Scots can totally rely on Westminster doing its utmost to scupper Salmond's currency aspirations. Spain (faced with similar independence movements in Catalonia and Basque Country) will join with Westminster to force Scotland to apply afresh to join the EU and if this happens Scotland will have to use the euro.

And then we'll have to have border guards because Scotland would be part of the Schengen zone (immigrants who obtain access to one country in the zone have free travel throughout the zone) and the rest of Britain, Northern Ireland and (southern) Ireland are outside the zone.

Maybe the Ununited Kingdom could help out the beleaguered citizens of Calais by organising humanitarian ferries to ship all the would-be migrants to Scotland—from one country in the Schengen zone to another.

It will all end in tears. And why did all this happen? Because Salmond wants power at any price and the loons and quines of Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen voted for short term gain.

 

[Blackal]

, and the wealth that is generated in London is due to hard work, not an accident of where some vegetation died and eventually turned into oil.

You're funnee.....................!

 

[markharnett]

I find this debate fascinating, and I am sure this is a particularly difficult decision for those that need to make it on voting day.

I can't help but agree with many views on here - how the hell are you supposed to come to an informed decision on this when there is so much spin on everything and everyone has an agenda?

I also can't get my head around what the cost to Scotland would be. A small example that may explain what I mean is this - all Scottish residents will need new Scottish passports and driving licences. Who pays for this? Do the Scottish people have to pay a fee to get a new one, or does the government pay for it (which really just means the Scottish people pay for it as it comes out of taxes!) - Don't mistake my point here, i am not suggesting this as a readon to vote "No", but just raising a point as to who will really pay for a move to independence.

There are many examples like this, and there has to be a cost involved.

There also seems to be a lot of tension revolving around Scottish people feeling they have been "hard done by" by the English.....I can't help but feel that this is a massively unfair point of view.......I live in the South East and I feel hard done by, by the British Government....I hate many of the things that happen in this country....but it seems that no matter who you vote in.....as others have said....you get the same old rubbish (read politicians). I am sure that if Scotland votes for independence then yes, the Scottish people will be deciding things for themselves, but it isn't going to be a sudden utopia. You are still going to be governed by politicians and we all know what that means.

I live as almost as far away from Scotland as anyone in the UK possibly could, but I love the country. I proposed to my fiance there, I have visited on numerous occasions and it is great, so I hope that whatever happens it works out in the best way for Scottish people.

All I ask is that you don't tar all English people with the same brush. At the end of the day, we are being governed by the same fuck wits you are.