Yes or no. Scottish residents only please

yes, no or undecided

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Economic case for Scottish independence

http://youtu.be/1W8cKHcZn60

This is, without doubt, the clearest, most compelling explanation of the economic facts underpinning the independence debate that you will see. Anyone who's interested and prepared to devote 36 minutes of their time (as anyone who plans to vote ought to be) will find that the facts here are sourced back to GERS (the veracity of which is accepted by both sides) and then explained and explored in a way that is clear but unpatronising and, when you hear them for the first time, quite jaw-dropping.

http://youtu.be/1W8cKHcZn60
 
Devon said:
Well that's 13 minutes of my life wasted, I tried watching the vid when you first posted but the title 'No vote will end free NHS..' and the fact it featured an Irish woman married to a German bloke telling Scots to vote for 'independence' made me think I would be watching a load of emotive tosh and so it proved when I suffered the vid at my second attempt.

I don't know why you think the English are any more/less obsessed about money then the Scots Den? I am comfortably off by most standards but live in the second poorest part of the UK and it really is shit for many of our friends and the youngsters around here. I don't think the Scots are very different to the vast majority of the English in wanting a decent and fair society and I think you will find a huge number of English are as disillusioned as some of the Scots and want to do something about it.

The vid sinks to another low imho using cancer to frighten people into supporting a 'Yes' campaign instead of presenting the Scottish population with a proper plan. Few people's lives aren't affected by the horrible disease, We lost my wife's dear Mum after a long fight against cancer last September and my life long friend's father was told by his doctor last week his cancer had now spread to his liver and bowel and he could stop taking his medication if he wanted as the hospital could do no more. The Irish woman's attempt to frighten Scots with the disease is vile and contemptible but is typical of the campaign by the Nats; emotive but empty rhetoric.




With respect Den you are not going anywhere. The majority of Scots see through salmon's lies and will not be persuaded on another Darien type adventure fortunately. I hope the Nats can learn to live with their silly sense of grievance after September but I don't expect they will. I wish you well anyway.
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Ok then Dev .... You've got me convinced. How could I be so naive. I'll certainly be voting NO now.
 
Den said:
Ok then Dev .... You've got me convinced. How could I be so naive. I'll certainly be voting NO now.
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So in the video the Irish woman breast cancer specialist married to a German warned Scots that everyone in England will die of cancer and so will everyone in Scotland if they don't vote to break up the union? Yet when I googled cancer survival rates in the UK it seems Scotland's survival rates are slightly behind England's, see table 2.1 http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/can...rtality/uk-breast-cancer-mortality-statistics
The Nats must be desperate to sink so low.
 
Devon said:
So in the video the Irish woman breast cancer specialist married to a German warned Scots that everyone in England will die of cancer and so will everyone in Scotland if they don't vote to break up the union? Yet when I googled cancer survival rates in the UK it seems Scotland's survival rates are slightly behind Englands, see table 2.1 http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/can...rtality/uk-breast-cancer-mortality-statistics
The Nats must be desperate to sink so low.
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Strange. The message I got from the video was that the English system of treating patients with any disorder by doctors purchasing services from the cheapest provider, and the NHS being left with the crap which private clinics cant do for a profit, was damaging student NHS doctors education, as they see routine operations less.

I will watch it again to check if I'm wrong.

It would be interesting to get other opinions on the video in question .
 
If it was really possible to have a more "equal" society by bringing everybody's income up to some magic living wage standard I might be tempted to believe in Salmond's land of milk and honey. The trouble is that if you increase my bus driver wages to pay the same as a local authority middle manager making us "equal" you will have to put up the bus fares so everybody else who has had their income increased loses some of that increase in higher costs to get to work. Likewise I will have to pay more for my lunch time sausage roll because the baker and the wee girl who works in the shop have had their pay increased to make them equal with me and before you know it we are all left with just the same amount of disposable income that we have now after paying for everybody else's increase.

You know that the only way government has ever found to impose equality is to take from the haves in the form of higher taxes and give it to the .................... And that's the fly in the ointment. How do you redistribute this wealth? It is government who will decide who the "have nots" are and since there is no reliable way of deciding who are "have nots" because they have been hit by unfortunate circumstances in life and who are "have nots" because they are feckless or can't understand the meaning of having the means to pay for your family before you embark on a breeding programme the government will do what it has always done and give it to everybody who falls below a certain income level regardless if that is through unavoidable circumstances or lifestyle choices.

Its time for the Yes campaign to put flesh on the bones of their promises to create a more equal society and tell us exactly how much extra I will have to pay in taxes so they can decide what to do with the money I have earned. William Beveridge, the architect of the British welfare state spoke of The "Five Giant Evils" in society Squalor, Ignorance, Want, Idleness, Disease. Only a system that attacks all of these evils with equal determination has a hope of producing a socialist utopia that can stand the test of time. So far they have concentrated on squalor, want and disease and left those who want to remain ignorant or idle to be dealt with another day. Thus the system loses credibility with those who have dragged themselves out of squalor and want through effort and who avoid the lifestyle choices that accompany so much of the disease that our health service now spends its time dealing with.
 
Bennysdad, I dont want to start another branch of this argument, but there was not the number of 'Idle and Ignorant' before Westminster spent all the oil revenue to finance unemployment in order to break the unions, shutting everything which made the slightest loss, then spending more than they lost to pay them benefits.
This forced a lot bigger proportion of less educated/qualified people to a life of unemployment. They are the folk on long term benefits. The folk who used to be factory labourers, miners, etc.
 
Den. That's your view of how we got here. What matters is how we get to where the independent Scottish government is going to get to where they want to be and I have seen nothing to convince me that their policies to produce a more equal society are any different from what has been tried and failed in the past and is failing now in France with their socialist government. Your suggestion reading between the lines that oil revenue could have been used to keep open loss making industries really illustrates my concerns. What happens when that money runs out? You can either let the industries go to the wall in which case all you have done is delay the inevitable or you can raise taxes to keep paying for the losses. By all means prop up industries while they modernise or retrain the workforce but there was not much indication as I recall of any desire on the part of unions in nationalised industries to go along with any change to their conditions. Oddly I think there would be now and with a few exceptions the unions we have now are much more forward looking but it is the lessons of the realities of the market place that have got them there.

Its no good having a vision of what you would like an independent Scotland to be like without clear policies in place to make sure you get there. The nationalists don't even know, or worse still the do know and won't tell us, what the set up costs would be during the first term of an independent government. The UK government has produced figures but all the SNP can say is they are wrong. Not how wrong or why wrong just wrong. That's not a vision its a daydream.
 
Funny that.....

Who'd a thunk it....?
 

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Neck and neck .... BUT WAIT....

At least 15 No voters DO NOT QUALIFY TO VOTE. Are you that desperate??
 
They don't call it a food bank in Norway. It is called the poor house http://thornews.com/2014/01/15/norways-poor-millionaires/ and there are about 14 percent of all children in Oslo living below the EU poverty line. Still why let the truth get in the way of a catchy banner eh Toddy. This is the Oslo Poor House. Looks a bit like what we have here except maybe colder.
 

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And the Scottish government are paying for a high speed rail link between Edinburgh and Glasgow when the line between Aberdeen and Inverness is mainly single track.

Toddy, inequalities exist up here as well you know (if you are able to take off your blinkers you'll see them)
 
Haven't you guys up north just been given a UK government grant of about £200 million to keep open the grangemouth oil refinery? :nenau
 
fatal said:
Haven't you guys up north just been given a UK government grant of about £200 million to keep open the grangemouth oil refinery? :nenau
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I thought Jim Ratcliffe, private owner of Grangemouth refinery has been granted a Government loan guarantee to build a big oil tank.

As far as I understand, this does not mean that westminster 'gives' any money. It takes on a portion of the debt as a guarantor if the loan is defaulted on.

Government loan guarantees
The term can be used to refer to a government to assume a private debt obligation if the borrower defaults. Most loan guarantee programs are established to correct perceived market failures by which small borrowers, regardless of creditworthiness, lack access to the credit resources available to large borrowers
 
Den said:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmfaff/writev/643/m05.htm
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"However, the adaptation of the British budgetary rebate could require difficult negotiations between Edinburgh and London as well as with Brussels." In other words you are welcome to join the club but you can forget any cut price deal that we were forced to offer the UK. Its full price for Scotland's taxpayers if we want to stay in the club. Its a pity the EU is making it so easy to keep paying into their gravy train. An independent Scotland outside the EU (like the much admired Norway) would greatly increase the chance of securing a Yes vote from me.
 
It certainly makes a good case for Scotland's continuing membership of the EU. However, this might finally put to bed the discussion about a currency unionhttp://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmselect/cmscotaf/499/49902.htm
 
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