Counter steering on the 1200GS?

Tim Cullis · Mar 9, 2005

This post was prompted by comments made by minkyhead:
http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39521

As a born-again biker I was introduced to counter steering after I bought the R850R last year and found it a great way of tightening up corners. You could give the bars quite a hard push.

But since getting the R1200GS I rarely consciously use counter steering as the bike turns in so easily on the bends. When I was encouraged to use the technique the bike almost fell over, so I now reserve counter steering for the (hopefully) rare occasions when I underestimate how tight a bend is and going in too fast.

Do other R1200GS owners feel the same?

Tim

(And if you don't know what I mean, here's some links:
http://www.motobykz.co.uk/Riding_Tips/Steering.htm
http://www.msgroup.org/TIP048.html )

Schtum · Mar 9, 2005

Counter steering isn't something that you do or don't do. It might be something that you're not consciously aware of doing, but it's the only way to make a motorcycle turn over the threshold speed of c. 10 mph.

Wraithwrider · Mar 9, 2005

Zmeagol

Try consciously NOT to countersteer at all when first entering a bend. But do it away from anything or anyone.

Another alternaltive which IMO amounts to the same thing is to ride no handed - it's hard work - and can be dangerous etc.

I sort of discovered countersteering as a spotty 17 yr old youth before it was called that or even discussed as a technique to my knowledge (1971).

I'm prepared to be challenged but I believe that it's just about always used unconsciously when initially getting the bike into a bend.

Where the application of countersteer is really useful is when it's consciously applied especially when already cranked over.

I find the 1200 countersteers brilliantly making it turn in really fast

Wraithwrider · Mar 9, 2005

but it's the only way to make a motorcycle turn over the threshold speed of c. 1o mph.

Body lean can do it but it's hard bloody work.

As a yoof I'd ride my BSA A7 Shooting Star for the odd mile or so no handed for the fun of it.

Sometimes used to bump start it outside the pub and ride it 13 miles home sidesaddle too.

Things you do at 17!

Schtum · Mar 9, 2005

Wraithwrider said:
I'm prepared to be challenged but I believe that it's just about always used unconsciously when initially getting the bike into a bend.

That would depend upon the limits of your conscious awareness. FWIW, mine extend beyond countersteering, so that I can become consciously aware of it, if I direct my attention towards it.

Wraithwrider · Mar 9, 2005

That would depend upon the limits of your conscious awareness

Fair comment Schtum

JayGee · Mar 9, 2005

We probably all agree that counter steering is how we steer, whether consiously or not. Learning to use it diliberately gives far better control and makes tightening a line easy.
What is interesting to me, is that my pillion comments that I have a different technique when riding the GS from how I corner on my blackbird. I wasn't really aware but what I think I do on the GS is diliberately counter steer almost always and I lean the bike more than myself. I'm not sure this is a good technique as I was always told to lean into the bend with my body and this will reduce the lean angle of the bike but I seem to be doing the opposite on the GS. As I said, I'm not sure its a good technique but it seems very effective until I grind something on the tarmac (usually a toe or the stand).

Schtum · Mar 9, 2005

JayGee said:
I wasn't really aware but what I think I do on the GS is diliberately counter steer almost always and I lean the bike more than myself.

Supermoto stylee......

GSmonkey · Mar 9, 2005

I'd suggest some bollocks is being spoken

Coutersteering is something everybody on two wheels has to do....that is what 'learning to ride a bike' is, it is learning how to coutersteer. You do sub-consciously countersteer, which is how you balance and go round corners. You have to steer the other way, to make the bike lean.

There is a pushbike set up to demonstrate this where there is a gearing to make the front wheel go the other way to the bars.....everybody falls off because your sub-conscious is fooled, i.e. your programmed motor skills cannot adapt.

What Zmeagol means is inded conscious countersteer, which is the act of pushing sharply on the inside bar to get the bike to tip. I'd suggest the reason this technique isn't required as much on a GS is due to the leverage on the bars. I've only found it of great use when riding sportsbikes and this was the only way to muscle it into the corners at high speed.

Schtum · Mar 9, 2005

GSmonkey said:
What Zmeagol means is inded conscious countersteer, which is the act of pushing sharply on the inside bar to get the bike to tip. I'd suggest the reason this technique isn't required as much on a GS is due to the leverage on the bars. I've only found it of great use when riding sportsbikes and this was the only way to muscle it into the corners at high speed.

You sound confused. I suggest going for a lie down....

JayGee · Mar 9, 2005

Schtum said:
You sound confused. I suggest going for a lie down....

A REALLY hefty push on the bar(s) should counter steer the lean into a lie down (best tried after ten pints of guiness!)

Tim Cullis · Mar 9, 2005

Wraithwrider said:
Body lean can do it but it's hard bloody work. As a yoof I'd ride my BSA A7 Shooting Star for the odd mile or so no handed for the fun of it.

Articled to a stingy accountant, money was short when I was young (late '60s), so I jumped at the chance of working in Pontypridd as I got 6d per mile on the commute from Peterborough each week. But the weather was often quite grotty, so I fixed the throttle on my Lambretta GT225 so it stayed open and I travelled mile after mile with my hands in my pockets, using body lean to steer.

I guess this is an example of not counter steering.

GSmonkey is right, I was talking about consciously using counter steering. When I gave the R12GS bars the same amount of hard shove I could use on the R850R, the bike almost fell over.

Tim

MikeO · Mar 9, 2005

Zmeagol said:
When I gave the R12GS bars the same amount of hard shove I could use on the R850R, the bike almost fell over.

The wider bars on your 1200 give you a larger moment around the steering head, therefore a greater steering reaction.

All counter steering should be done smoothly and progressively - the coarseness implied in a "hard shove" is going to unsettle the bike and degrade your ability to corner...

Mike

Wraithwrider · Mar 9, 2005

GSmonkey is right, I was talking about consciously using counter steering

Okay I have met many people who swear that they don't countersteer - I thought you were one.

No harm done

Peter

Mouse · Mar 9, 2005

To get back to the original point

I agree with what Zmeagol said in his first post. The 1200 turns so easily that you don't need much CONSCIOUS countersteering

After a few months riding my GS, I got back on my Fazer to check it out, and was amazed at the amount of pressure I had to apply to the bars to get it to turn. And before getting the GS I always thought the fazer was quite easy to turn

Stig · Mar 9, 2005

Mike O said:
All counter steering should be done smoothly and progressively - the coarseness implied in a "hard shove" is going to unsettle the bike and degrade your ability to corner...

I disagree Mike O!!... I consciously "pull" my bars hard left and right on some "snakey Nawfuk back roads (.. in a similar manner to my supermoto..) to "Flip" in and outta left and right handers when riding hard at speed... without any loss of control!!..

Mouse said:
To get back to the original point

I agree with what Zmeagol said in his first post. The 1200 turns so easily that you don't need much CONSCIOUS countersteering

I'll buy that.. the 1200 does turn easily with minimal counter steer!! ... the technique i adopt (mostly) with pillion aboard..

Mouse said:
After a few months riding my GS, I got back on my Fazer to check it out, and was amazed at the amount of pressure I had to apply to the bars to get it to turn. And before getting the GS I always thought the fazer was quite easy to turn

Our kid had a Fazer 600 and has recently got a Fazer Thou.. the only noticable difference (to me) is the narrowness of the bars.. compared to the GS... I'd say the 6 was easier to "flip" than the thou.. but other than that.. there's still sod all in it.. tween Fazers n' GS!!

Ps.. his Fazer also feel like a moped... its Sooooooooo small.. but boy.. does it go sum when wound up!!

Mikef · Mar 10, 2005

interesting read

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

GSmonkey · Mar 10, 2005

I think we should just have a fight......4pm Ace Cafe - Queensbury Rules

MikeO · Mar 10, 2005

Stig said:
I disagree Mike O!!... I consciously "pull" my bars hard left and right on some "snakey Nawfuk back roads (.. in a similar manner to my supermoto..) to "Flip" in and outta left and right handers when riding hard at speed... without any loss of control!!..

Didn't suggest a loss of control - but if you're not doing things smoothly and progressively, you're riding slower than you could - guaranteed.

Mike

smartrider · Mar 10, 2005

There is another advantage to deliberatly countersteering.

If you countersteer the bike as opposed to leaning and brining the bike with you , you can keep you head up higher which helps you to see around the bend further which in turn ( given that the conditions are right) means that you can increase your acceleration sooner. Or better still, if there is a dead horse lying in the road, you see it earlier and have more chance to deal with the situation.

We are talking split seconds but it all helps.

Counter steering on the 1200GS?

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