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earthmover
03-04-17, 21:31
Erm, no. But part of it soon will be........

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-LXRV3LQ/0/L/DSC_0026-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-xZdstJR/0/L/DSC_0027-L.jpg

The background:
Ever since i started competing in Classic Trials, (See http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php/423448-Following-Tim-s-example) I have held the riders of old British bikes in some awe. Are they brave, skilled or crazy to pilot big lumps of iron around a trials course, when lighter and more nimble machinery is available? I must admit, watching them was great fun, and its better seeing some of the big old four strokes attacking sections instead of languishing in a museum. My favourites though were the big Ariels, and the Triumph twins.
A couple of years ago I was offered a ride on a pre-unit Triumph 500 twin, in a Hardy frame, at one of our regular venues. So after the trial proper had finished, I gingerly took the bike out through 4 of the sections that were nearest to the car park. I had been able to 'clean' these quite easily on my Whitehawk, and manged to do the same on the twin, but it was very hard work! It seemed to be everything I expected the old bikes to be, heavy, ponderous, hard to turn, and in the 500's case, too powerful. I had arm pump, probably because the owner had told me how much it was worth, so had a death grip on the bars! I handed it back, thanfully undamaged, and decided the bigger bikes wern't for me.
At the February 2016 Telford Classic Dirt Bike show, I came across this:

https://photos.smugmug.com/2016/i-cgf7s64/0/L/DSC_0013-L.jpg

Drayton are a renowned frame builders, mainly for Bantams, but have had sucess with other motors as well. Timolgra's C15 is in a Drayton frame. Now the colour wasn't exactly my cup of tea, but I thought the bike looked a good deal more compact than the one I rode. There was a for sale sticker on it, and spotting a familiar face manning the stand, I idly asked how much.
Somewhat shocked, I dismissed any further musings in that direction! I did have a Pre 65 itch to scratch, so focussed my attention on looking for a decent C15 or Tiger Cub to dip my toe in the water, but not loose my shirt should it not be for me. Hence I became the owner of the Cub in the other thread.
That Drayton Twin had been quite a talking point amongst the riders that I knew, and for each one that was shocked at the price, there would be one who could see how it had been arrived at. I hadn't realised that the bike was wearing just about the best of everything available, and the sums added up.
Since then I have had chance to ride another twin, which was far more manouverable than the first. I asked the owner what he knew about the Drayton, and he replied that he and his father had spent considerable time trying to make his bike handle like it, with limited sucess!
This itch was now starting to gnaw away at me, so this year's Telford show had me clutching my cheque book in anticipation. Sadly for me, a life changing illness had made Drayton's main man rethink his priorities. He would now only supply frames, not complete bikes. There were no 'customer' bikes for sale either, and none that they knew of. Crestfallen, I bought a couple of raffle tickets for the charity they were supporting, which was to win a frame kit, and wandered round the rest of the show.

https://photos.smugmug.com/2016/i-VVqjZcR/0/L/DSC_0015-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/2016/i-pbHCtkJ/0/L/DSC_0016-L.jpg

Telford is always a good place for catching up with people, some of whom I have known for years, and whose opinions I respect. By the time I left for home, I had half an idea in my head. On the Monday evening, a chance response to a facebook post, of all things, prompted a flood of messages and emails from various different people, the bottom line of which was "Stop pontificating and get on with it!" So I did.
The frame kit is made to order, and take 4 to 6 weeks. With that on the go, I started the search for a suitable motor. I had been offered quite a few "boxes of bits", puporting to be a complete engine, or in some cases a complete bike, that had all been running when they were dismantled. I would much rather see one that was running now, and found one on ebay an hour away from me. This wasn't advertised particularly well, and only cropped up in my search term "3ta", as it was listed as a "Tribsa". It was registered, although SORNed, and had all the MOt's up to being taken off the road some 16 years ago. I had a brief conversation with the vendor, he said it ran, selected all gears, but smoked a bit. I put a bid on based on that, and a few days later became the proud owner!
Collecting it that weekend, the vendor hadn't lied, but maybe his definition of 'a bit' and mine aren't quite the same! Still, nothing we can't fix.:thumb
Mark

markjackson
03-04-17, 21:45
The purple & silver one is so cute! Keep the photos coming:thumb2

And what is the frame on the roadster? The tubes look so narrow.

JohnnyBoxer
03-04-17, 22:11
I'd like to see this, when finished

A mate has a trick C15 and he keeps saying 'have a go on it'..............but so far, I have resisted

Maybe time for a rethink too, as (like Aqueduct) the Yorkshire Classic club put on some cracking Trials. over here

earthmover
04-04-17, 07:32
The purple & silver one is so cute! Keep the photos coming:thumb2

And what is the frame on the roadster? The tubes look so narrow.

It definitely caught the eye! Apparently that is an original Triumph colour, mine won't be though.
The "donor bike" for the motor was originally a BSA Barracuda, I'm reliably informed, modified to take the Triumph engine. There is a smattering of Suzuki parts on it too.
Mark

JohnnyBoxer
04-04-17, 09:26
These are nice..:thumby:

The Guzzi is my favourite though:clap

:drool

earthmover
06-04-17, 07:26
At least the bike is a runner, and is in a rolling test bed of sorts, so I can get things sorted out before the new frame arrives.
First things first, warm the engine and drop all the oils. There was some strange plumbing on the bike, which the vendor had said was from the previous owner making it look more like a high performance race bike. Emphasis on "look", he knew a lot of the bikes history and was quite certain there was more show than go to the modifications.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-2MJ6zQ7/0/L/DSC_0035-L.jpg

The gearbox oil didn't look too bad, but the engine oil was like treacle. There are heated debates raging as we speak over "which oil?". I use the same oils as I use in all my other bikes, unless there is really good reason, so a couple of litres of Rock Oil Guardian 10-40 went in, and I ran it up again. There was a faint hope that the rings were just stuck, causing the smoke, and a couple of heat cycles might free them. It was supposedly stood for over 15 years! Needless to say, it still smoked, but at least it smelt better.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-NssLMQm/0/L/DSC_0041-L.jpg

Next I took the timing cover off to check the oil pump, and to see what the breather that had been added was doing. Nothing is the answer, there was a rawlplug jammed in it to block it up! I took the breather out and got the hole welded up.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-MHfLDP2/0/L/DSC_0064-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-GpvGvwB/0/L/DSC_0066-L.jpg

The primary drive side had quite a few jobs I needed to do for the new life the engine was going to get. Gear reduction and electric ignition were going to make it better as a trials bike. The primary and final drive sprockets were both due to go down a few teeth, 26 down to 16 on the primary, and 18 down to 14 on the gearbox. There are a few different ignition systems on the market, I opted for Electrex World after hearing good things about their ease of fitting. With all the parts ordered, I took off the side cover to see what I would find.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-DTkLFLL/0/L/DSC_0070-L.jpg

One of the modifications carried out to later engines was to dispense with the rotary breather on the camshaft, and to take out the primary side crankcase seal, allowing the crankcase to breathe into the primary chaincase. Drill three small holes to let excess oil back into the crankcase, and vent the primary case to atmosphere. This explains the breather stuck in the chaincase filler plug. According to my triumph guru, reversing this mod wouldn't be detrimental to a lightly stressed trials application. Taking the clutch plates out I found there was an odd number of plates. This didn't seem normal, every other clutch I have know has had an even number of plain and friction plates. Must look into that. Pulling the old ignition rotor off allowed me to remove the clutch and primary gear, together with the duplex chain, as one. With the primary gear off it was a simple job to tap a new crankcase seal in, then put three small self tappers into the three holes.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-pbgmfVT/0/L/DSC_0072-L.jpg

Taking off the inspection hatch at the back of the chaincase lets you remove the gearbox sprocket, and axchange it for the new one.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-DK48SR5/0/L/DSC_0082-L.jpg

Replacing the clutch housing allowed me to measure how much to shorten the duplex chain, before refitting it with a split link.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-6JFRNnL/0/L/DSC_0094-L.jpg

With all that back together, it was time to fit the new ignition, which fell on with the minimum of fuss.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-7RKSPmh/0/L/DSC_0095-L.jpg

The distributor and coils were dispensed with, and the new cdi and wiring added in just a few minutes. I carefully set the ignition timing, as per the instructions in the box, to 38 degrees before TDC, and pushed the bike outside to give it a try.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-FwDrkr7/0/L/DSC_0089-L.jpg

I could barely turn it over on the kickstart! :eek: What had I done wrong? :nenau
Mark

dr nosh
06-04-17, 12:21
Changed the gearing ratio > kickstarter>via gearbox>primary chain clutch chain wheel>engine sprocket>engine crankshaft.

What is the kickstarter like operating just the clutch chain wheel with the primary chain removed? Smooth? No. Gearbox jammed?

With the primary chain still removed, turn the crank with a spanner on the lock nut. Remove 4 rocket box caps. 4 valves operating?

Packer
06-04-17, 16:42
........I could barely turn it over on the kickstart! :eek: What had I done wrong? :nenau
Mark

Reducing the primary drive in respect of the engine has had the opposite effect in respect of the kickstart which works through the gearbox. You may need to rethink the primary ratio change.

earthmover
07-04-17, 10:00
So, after stripping it down again to make sure everything was free, and that nothing could be binding when tightened up, I rebuilt it all. Same result. Can barely move the kickstart. :nenau
Pulled the spark plugs and now I can move it, and there's a big fat spark at the plugs. Put them back in and same again, hardly turn it over. It's as though the compression has suddenly increased........
There was a trial the next day, and I knew my Triumph mentor would be there. Fair play to him, he didn't laugh out loud when I told him of my predicament, simply smiled and asked if I'd thought about fitting a longer kickstart, made specially for trials engines with lowered primary gearing? :blast
Mark

Packer
07-04-17, 10:09
Fair play to him, he didn't laugh out loud when I told him of my predicament, simply smiled and asked if I'd thought about fitting a longer kickstart, made specially for trials engines with lowered primary gearing? :blast
Mark

That would work too! :)

earthmover
12-04-17, 11:42
This shows how the bike ran when I picked it up.


https://youtu.be/WTiR58I9bDs

"Smokes a little!"
Mark

earthmover
12-04-17, 16:37
With the new kickstart fitted I was able to turn the engine over easily, and she fired up with very little fuss. With the timing set as per the instructions though, there was a distinct tendency to over-run when the throttle was closed. As yet I hadn't touched the carb or anything else (even though my spanners were twitching) having been advised to take one step at a time to ensure I didn't confuse the issue. Pre 65 patience, they call it. As the only thing I had changed that could cause it was the timing, I retarded it a bit, and it ran better. I retarded it quite a lot, and it ran perfectly, albeit hot. Now I was a lot closer to the figure I had been advised by other Twin trials riders, so this is now my benchmark setting for further "experimentation" once everything else is sorted.
The distributor hole is now the crankcase breather, and the primary chaincase is sealed again. The gearing is lowered to trials spec, and everything runs well, but it still smokes like a chimney. I'm going to have to delve further.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-8Dmpzg8/0/L/DSC_0120-L.jpg

Stripping the exhaust pipes showed just how much soot and carbon was in there. Taking the cylinder head bolts off answered one question. Two of the bolts were chamfered nearly quarter of the way through their heads. This was to allow them to slide past the frame tube, so the head could be removed without taking the engine from the frame. I will be replacing those when the lump is in its new home.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-NxGqRQB/0/L/DSC_0121-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-swzgdpJ/0/L/DSC_0123-L.jpg

The rocker boxes were next, revealing an excess of silicone instead of gaskets. I use silicone myself, but sparingly. Not so the last person who had it apart!

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-d2Xq56L/0/L/DSC_0122-L.jpg

Carefully lifting the head off after taking out the push rods shows a very polished pair of bores.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-dT3Jgbh/0/L/DSC_0128-L.jpg

Ever so carefully persuading the barrel upwards, making sure the pistons dont flop onto the studs, and voila! More silicone!

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-2qCM2hQ/0/L/DSC_0131-L.jpg

The rings weren't stuck, but the gaps were well beyond the limit, if they were the correct ones in the first place. The barrel was on its last overbore, but the piston clearance was within the limits.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-XFGXbGB/0/L/DSC_0126-L.jpg

Carefully cleaning all the silicone off was a slow and laborious process, as was cleaning the carbon off the cylinder head, but I was convinced it would be worth it in the long run.
The new rings slipped on, and then offered up in the barrel showed them to be good and tight. A light hone to break the glaze was all that would be needed before refitting. My initial thought, that I would be able to squeeze the piston rings in by hand as I pushed the barrel down, was cut short by the realisation that I would need three hands. A quick trip to Demon Tweeks for a pair of ring compressors made the job a doddle!

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-2QWGL3Q/0/L/DSC_0130-L.jpg

New gaskets and pushrod tube seals, with just a smear of sealant should hopefully reduce the leaks from that area. With the barrel tightened down, the head was eased on and the cleaned rocker boxes fitted, again with gaskets this time. Quick check of the valve clearances, and we're ready to give it a go!
After a few gentle kicks with the kill switch pressed, I crossed my fingers, and gave it a welly. The bike burbled happily into life and I kept it at a low tickover until I was certain the oil was circulating. I was pleased to see that there was no smoke from the exhaust, but less pleased by the amount of oil that was dripping from various points. A quick spin to see what the gearing changes had achieved, and to put the engine under load, then back in the garage. My intention had been to drop the oil straight away anyhow, to check for any debris and flush out any muck I may have dislodged. One of the leaks turned out to be the sump plug. Now I know why that had silicone all round it, the threads are knackered! Thankfully the plug, not the sump, so that was easily cured.
After giving the engine a good clean, and running it again with fresh oil, it turns out that some of the leaks were just old residue that had got hot and run off. The base of the engine and pushrod tubes were dry as a bone. The primary chaincase had a leak from some previous damage, careful gasket positioning, and a helicoiled thread reduced this to a weep.
Happy with my progress, lets have a look at the gearbox side.....
Mark

earthmover
12-04-17, 17:16
https://youtu.be/FBxsw0NAdfg

tuftywhite
12-04-17, 17:23
Enjoying your progress. :thumb2

earthmover
27-04-17, 12:39
Short of pictures for this part, as my phone decided to jumble the photos together, rendering them unusable.
The clutch action was very stiff and didn't seem to have much travel. I'd cleaned up the tabs on the clutch plates and made sure everything worked properly on that side of the motor, so now to look at the other side. The actuating arm is behind the gearbox cover, so I undid the bolts and carefully pulled the cover off. There is an "inspection plate" on the top, which is obviously not a Triumph original feature. No idea what that could be for, but at the moment its a good ingress point for water, and of course mud. The boot for the clutch cable was torn and ill fitting, another way in for it. Not ideal for the intended use, and explains why half a pint of emulsified green slop fell out when I finally got it off.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-wSGJDp9/0/770f2995/L/DSC_0157-L.jpg

The actuating arm swivel, where the cable nipple sits, had quite a lot of free play in it, so a washer and a new split pin tightened that up. The arm turns a worm gear in a housing, which moves the push rod. There was grit in the worm gear, stopping it from moving freely. That cleaned up and oiled made it smoother, and the two together translated to a couple of mm more travel to the push rod. I then looked at the gear lever spring housing, and decided that could do with a clean up. Big mistake.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-V7RF7NL/0/96defe6d/L/DSC_0158-L.jpg

The springs sensed their new found freedom when I took the cover off, and sprang to opposing corners of the garage, taking the tiny top hat washers with them. As my garage is too full, too disorganised, and the floor too dirty, retrieving them was going to prove a challenge!
Much swearing and crawling around the floor later, all components recovered, cleaned and reinstalled. Mental note not to undo that again unless absolutely necessary.
With everything bolted back together and fresh oil in, the clutch action is much better. Discarding the original pressure plate for an alloy one is a popular mod, not a huge amount of difference for the money, but looks shiny doesn't it?

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-7GT8W8n/0/699646d4/L/DSC_0159-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-SKb9Qs6/0/9972fb92/L/P4230103-L.jpg

Mark

earthmover
09-05-17, 11:09
Re-took some of the photos that had been lost.

If you look at the cylinder head bolt centre screen, you can see where it has been cut away.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-Rq5bmdn/0/9c782c57/L/P4230108-L.jpg

Not the best picture, but the distributor hole plugged with a hose tail to make a breather.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-WPwZCfT/0/9016f02c/L/P4230105-L.jpg

Shiny new oil pressure relief valve. The original had an open plunger as a tell tale, not the best for trials.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-D6VQxq6/0/313eb320/L/P4230109-L.jpg

Mark

Timolgra
09-05-17, 11:19
Hurry up :D

earthmover
09-05-17, 11:21
The motor is now in pretty good shape, any little adjustments will be easy to make with it in its new home, so let's liberate it shall we? :D

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-s6K8Tdv/0/a6ea3a2e/L/DSC_0007-L.jpg

Hmm, heavy. Whose dumb idea was this anyway?

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-fQCvBXR/0/6a07a715/L/DSC_0013-L.jpg

This frame is now rather redundant. All I need now is for the new one to be ready......

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-PZ8vWSm/0/3f284528/L/DSC_0021-L.jpg

Mark

bowser
09-05-17, 11:47
So, after stripping it down again to make sure everything was free, and that nothing could be binding when tightened up, I rebuilt it all. Same result. Can barely move the kickstart. :nenau
Pulled the spark plugs and now I can move it, and there's a big fat spark at the plugs. Put them back in and same again, hardly turn it over. It's as though the compression has suddenly increased........
There was a trial the next day, and I knew my Triumph mentor would be there. Fair play to him, he didn't laugh out loud when I told him of my predicament, simply smiled and asked if I'd thought about fitting a longer kickstart, made specially for trials engines with lowered primary gearing? :blast
Mark

Have you thought of a spark plug decompressor valve? might be an option.

http://www.triumphrat.net/classic-vintage-and-veteran/700826-made-my-68-bonnie-into-rider-now-i-cant-start-it-3.html

earthmover
16-05-17, 10:02
I got a message on Friday telling me that the frame kit was ready. Excited? You betcha! :D
Rearranged my Saturday plans and headed down to Ludlow to collect it, two hours on roads that would have been far better on the bike, but I wasn't sure how well I could bungee the frame on!
When Rob opened the unit door, there was a row of six frames still in bare metal, a black one, and my British Racing Green one. First thought was how stunning it looked, second how small! Its tiny! How am I going to get that big Triumph lump in there?
No need to do any complicated loading, it fits straight in the back of the car. Lifting it in was a one handed affair, for now!

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-FZLzhmj/0/405defff/L/DSC_0034-L.jpg

You can't see the exhaust, because it's on the front seat.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-m7cp8Sp/0/026bc2a6/L/DSC_0035-L.jpg

We had a chat for a while about various tips and tricks to get the whole bike together, and what other people have done. Then we compared notes on the Pre 65 trials scene in general, and the Scottish, before I set off back for home.

Denise was away that weekend, so I had plenty of time to myself. Might as well make a start then! :D

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-GCsbZJP/0/6d37aa28/L/DSC_0036-L.jpg

Gently lowering the engine between the frame rails was easy, if heavy.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-jr8Lc4j/0/c911ae5f/L/DSC_0039-L.jpg

The engine mounts on the frame are narrower than on the engine, which allows you to offset the engine slightly one way or the other if needed. I've gone for dead central to begin with. Blocking the mounts out with oversize nuts and washers is a temporary solution, once I am happy with the positioning I'll get some spacers made.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-tHDWx7Q/0/31718b43/L/P5120120-L.jpg

Little touches like the oil filler cap show the attention to detail, and makes me smile.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-R5sQLsZ/0/68315533/L/DSC_10047-L.jpg

The oil pipes are a touch too long, but I'll see how it works before I shorten them.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-PW6h6Sp/0/eb8b8da4/L/DSC_10056-L.jpg

Included in the kit is a bent throttle cable guide (centre of pic), because the standard Amal one will foul on the underside of the frame tube. Tapped the hole in the carb top out to take the new guide, and connected the inner cables before trying it in position.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-d3b86fm/0/c82be7da/L/P5110119-L.jpg

Then I fastened the electrics in position on their brackets, as they were hanging down on the floor and were going to get damaged. Again, all the tabs are spaced perfectly.
The exhaust was next, and I suppose I should have taken a photo before I put it on, but got carried away. I already had new clamps for the cylinder head, as the originals were in poor order. The system fits that closely to the engine it is a bit of a struggle to line them up, but once in place it looks fantastic!

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-VFhpr7L/0/6f201ae6/L/DSC_10061-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-DfSk4Kt/0/4d33d7ef/L/P5130129-L.jpg

Now I am waiting for parts. :(
Mark

patzx12
16-05-17, 14:38
Lovely job. I usually lay the engine on its side and lower the frame over it.

thebuyer
16-05-17, 15:11
Shame to get it dirty :thumb2

DrFarkoff
16-05-17, 15:32
question for you

Back when this was built did they have 10 w 40 in motorcycles????

If not then what was in use then? Should be in it now :rob

I have had more than one NUMPTY think it a good idea to use Fully synth in airheads, one used that total pish Zero W 5 and another used 5W30

to say that it PISHED out every where and sounded like an out of adjustment pair of Krauser heads would be an understatement!!!!

My Advice is to go with the "period" oil viscosity :thumb (Which may well be 10W40 Becuase I iz too young! :augie )

Looking forward to more :popcorn

Timolgra
16-05-17, 15:49
question for you

Back when this was built did they have 10 w 40 in motorcycles????

If not then what was in use then? Should be in it now :rob

I have had more than one NUMPTY think it a good idea to use Fully synth in airheads, one used that total pish Zero W 5 and another used 5W30

to say that it PISHED out every where and sounded like an out of adjustment pair of Krauser heads would be an understatement!!!!

My Advice is to go with the "period" oil viscosity :thumb (Which may well be 10W40 Becuase I iz too young! :augie )

Looking forward to more :popcorn

I have a BSA using the same frame and the oil of the day was a straight 30W, some still recommend that since there's no filter (just a strainer) and the theory is that straight oils suspend particles. However I use 20W50 in that bike, mineral of course.

I'm guessing Mark will use a spin on filter if he can find room for it :beerjug:

Anyway, hurry up I can't wait to hear it :D

earthmover
17-05-17, 10:20
Anyway, hurry up I can't wait to hear it :D

Me neither! Unless some packages arrive for me this week, I might have to resort to firing it up on the work stand. :green gri
Mark

earthmover
01-06-17, 13:46
Whilst waiting for other bits to arrive, I turned my attention to those that I had, that needed "modification". The carb is that close to the frame that a standard air filter won't fit. Taking an old, split intake boot from a TY gave me just enough angle to clear the downtube. The choke, or air valve, on the Amal was decreed redundant and removed. I blanked off the cable inlet with a bolt. The angled cable guide fitted earlier means a standard throttle cable inner is now too short, but that can be bodged with a screw on nipple. I bought a new clutch cable, longer than the kinked original, to fit trials bars. The inner was too long, so an extra adjuster was bodged on to make it work. Once I'm happy with everything, I'll get proper ones made up to length.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-N84mjmJ/0/93e903d0/L/DSC_10071-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-t7rb7HM/0/9fe9ac59/L/DSC_10070-L.jpg



With the air filter in place I can now finalise the oil feed pipe run for the rockers, and then fit the brackets for the head steady. These were cut from 2 inch angle, so could stand some prettifying at a later date.
A nice new shiny pair of Rockshocks have been under the bench since I ordered the frame.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-bZRNFWv/0/3cbe472a/L/DSC_10065-L.jpg

The yokes that should have been with the frame finally arrived, and were fitted.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-dbkRWNN/0/369b2a1f/L/DSC_10066-L.jpg

Now I can start on the pointy end. To keep the build costs down, I bought a second hand set of forks and wheels of a mate from the club. The forks were originally MZ, fitted with Montesa internals. They aren't pretty, but they work. There is room for improvement, which will be investigated further down the line. For the moment they do a good job of keeping the front end off the deck!

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-2WVgKCb/0/6f4f7381/L/DSC_10072-L.jpg

The wheels are from a Triumph Tiger Cub, which I have already put new bearings and tyres on.
The fork brace was slightly narrower than required, nothing that a big hammer couldn't fix. Flattening the curvature slightly gave me the extra to make it work. Keeping to the theme of bodged cables, a TY front brake cable was almost perfect fit, if you count an inch too short as near perfect.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-3TTdX7h/0/8094b312/L/DSC_10069-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-hQXsv9x/0/9d12ccd4/L/DSC_10084-L.jpg

My garage faces the road, so I wanted to wheel the bike around the back to try it out, but
the rear axle still hadn't arrived. I jacked the Whitehawk up and stole its rear wheel, axle and brake plate and stuck them in the back of the twin, along with an assortment of washers and spacers to get it in the right position. At least now it is mobile.
With the fuel tank fastened down another problem showed up, the tap was at the wrong angle and wouldn't turn on. Easily sorted for the moment, unfasten the tank and lift it up!
After a few kicks, a very lumpy twin grumbled into life. Adjusting the airscrew helped a little, but the freer flowing exhaust had affected the jetting. Tickover was ok, but the throtle had to be turned very gently to not stall. I was able to check that the oil was circulating, and I had a base to start from. The next days trial saw me with a list of questions for the experts.
Mark

earthmover
01-06-17, 17:14
Not the best video ever:



https://youtu.be/h6p0m2ixO_Q


Mark

jonnie comet
01-06-17, 17:50
Coming on nicely........:thumb2

AND...We have a couple of those poxy blue plant pots.....I didn't buy ours, I bet you didn't buy yours......;)

I love this stuff, please keep it coming......:)

dean0n0
01-06-17, 23:08
All this work to ride in to trees,
Bushes,
Rocks,
Mud,
other competitors,
big holes and anything else that inconvieniently appears in front of you.
Anything's better than doing the bloody garden.

Thanks.

The Whitehawk is still in you possession?

JohnnyBoxer
02-06-17, 06:04
My mate has just put some REH forks in his C15

They are a work of art and work very well

earthmover
02-06-17, 06:59
All this work to ride in to trees,
Bushes,
Rocks,
Mud,
other competitors,
big holes and anything else that inconvieniently appears in front of you.
Anything's better than doing the bloody garden.

Thanks.

The Whitehawk is still in you possession?

Spot on! And yes, I do still have a Whitehawk.
Mark

earthmover
02-06-17, 07:01
Coming on nicely........:thumb2

AND...We have a couple of those poxy blue plant pots.....I didn't buy ours, I bet you didn't buy yours......;)

I love this stuff, please keep it coming......:)

I haven't a clue where that pot came from, but Denise planted chives in it!
Mark

MattW
02-06-17, 07:09
OMG - just come across this thread!
It's looking fantastic Mark - cracking job :thumb2

Timolgra
02-06-17, 07:26
My mate has just put some REH forks in his C15

They are a work of art and work very well
I have MP forks on mine and they're shite but at least comply with strict pre 65 criteria :D

I'm very impressed Mark, you're doing a great job wI'll pop over next week for a gander :)

JohnnyBoxer
02-06-17, 07:38
REH are eligible for pre65 and they're great

Not cheap though

earthmover
02-06-17, 08:46
REH are eligible for pre65 and they're great

Not cheap though

On my "wish" list, along with a few other bits. Concentrating on bringing this in as a competitive bike within a budget. :D
Thanks for the kind words folks.
Mark

UturnTony
02-06-17, 08:55
Great thread Mark taking me back to when i used to work on those engines myself, great motors.

Reference the plate on top of the gearbox cover. A situation could arise where one of the
gearchange pawls got jammed in the selector plate stopping the cover being removed and
it was one way round the problem to do what has been done to yours allowing access to push the pawl back.
The reason for the jamming was, that the pawls were retained by a split pin which could wear away and let go,
so allowing the pawl aided by it's spring to pop up through the selector plate stopping the end cover coming off to repair
the now not working gearchange mechanism.

Looking forward to further installments :thumb2

Timolgra
02-06-17, 08:57
REH are eligible for pre65 and they're great

Not cheap though

Yes I know that but they cost more than many complete twin shock bikes :D

earthmover
02-06-17, 10:10
Great thread Mark taking me back to when i used to work on those engines myself, great motors.

Reference the plate on top of the gearbox cover. A situation could arise where one of the
gearchange pawls got jammed in the selector plate stopping the cover being removed and
it was one way round the problem to do what has been done to yours allowing access to push the pawl back.
The reason for the jamming was, that the pawls were retained by a split pin which could wear away and let go,
so allowing the pawl aided by it's spring to pop up through the selector plate stopping the end cover coming off to repair
the now not working gearchange mechanism.

Looking forward to further installments :thumb2

Fantastic Tony, that makes sense!
Cheers,
Mark

JohnnyBoxer
02-06-17, 12:04
Yes I know that but they cost more than many complete twin shock bikes :D

I know - he showed me the bill and it was in the teens

earthmover
07-06-17, 12:10
Well the trial wasn't the most sucessful as far as riding goes. I dropped the Tiger Cub in a stream in the second section and drowned it. (and me!) Thankfully ten minutes of kicking with the plug out cleared it and I was able to finish.
As far as the Twin goes though, I came away with plenty to work with. First off a couple of ideas to try, and second an order for some bigger jets from Amal.
Before I got chance to look at this, my rear axle arrived, so first job was to put its own wheel in instead of the Whitehawk's. A rummage through my spares boxes turned up a handfull of spacers to fix the wheel in a roughly central position, to be finalised when we see how the chain runs.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-5dC66mk/0/9ebcdda3/L/DSC_10083-L.jpg

An old torque arm off a TY was shortened and pressed into service, and a cable adjuster bodged to hold the cable on the rear brake arm.
The second hand Tiger Cub wheel came with a nearly new 48 tooth sprocket, so this was my starting point for gearing. I have various old runs of chain which were good enough to experiment with, so cut one to the right length and fastened everything together.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-NrT7NfZ/0/0856b74d/L/DSC_10086-L.jpg

With an idle five minutes I fastened the mudguards on. The alloy ones look fantastic, but don't crash as well as plastic, so a pair of white Universal were bolted in position. These may get swapped for better looking ones in the future, depending on my mood.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-J6Qt5Pp/0/f920b09a/L/DSC_10087-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-8kHWfjC/0/c167d312/L/DSC_10091-L.jpg

I will get the front brake cable sorted, honest!

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-2BSP386/0/37d9fcff/L/DSC_10092-L.jpg

The new jets had arrived, so I put the next size up, a 160, in and wheeled it outside to try. This was much better, but still hesitant just off tickover. I put the 170 in and with a bit of tweaking on the air screw got it to nigh on perfect.
A quick celebratory blast up the farm track and it sounds glorious, with an evil cackle on the over run. Very un-trials bike like!
Unfortunately the gearing is too high, so next on the shopping list is a 54 tooth sprocket!
Mark

UturnTony
08-06-17, 08:30
I'm liking the look of that Mark and a tad envious i might say; I bet your made up with it :thumb2

That engine was fitted from new, as you probably know, with the Amal Monobloc carbs which, tbh i prefer;
I never did seem to get on with the MK1 concentric carbs.

Timolgra
08-06-17, 09:42
That engine was fitted from new, as you probably know, with the Amal Monobloc carbs which, tbh i prefer;
I never did seem to get on with the MK1 concentric carbs.


That's interesting, when I raced grass track bikes (in younger days!!) all bikes would have concentric carbs if they'd originally had monoblocs :beerjug:

UturnTony
08-06-17, 12:18
That's interesting, when I raced grass track bikes (in younger days!!) all bikes would have concentric carbs if they'd originally had monoblocs :beerjug:

I didn't mean they were no good just that I didn't have much luck getting them right which is probably more a reflection on my skills than the carbs :D

Timolgra
08-06-17, 12:58
I didn't mean they were no good just that I didn't have much luck getting them right which is probably more a reflection on my skills than the carbs :D

Yes, they're a bit crude to say the least although I had one on my last Triumph twin I'm sure a Mikuni would have been much better.

Anyway Mark, watch you don't dent that tank :eek::eek::D

earthmover
08-06-17, 13:42
Anyway Mark, watch you don't dent that tank :eek::eek::D

It's ok, the panel beater kept the tools he made to straighten the last one. :blast
Mark

earthmover
08-06-17, 14:20
There's a guy on Facebook makes custom front number boards for trials bikes.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-6xtZctX/0/699b0e80/L/DSC_10094-L.jpg

This is the view I should see most of, although as Tim will no doubt suggest, I do see far more of my bikes from a distance..:D

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-Rsr3zp6/0/c2c49dfa/XL/DSC_10090-XL.jpg

Mark

Timolgra
08-06-17, 16:31
This is the view I should see most of, although as Tim will no doubt suggest, I do see far more of my bikes from a distance..:D




So harsh, although I am looking forward to seeing the underside on the steep sections :D

You've done a great job Mark, best looking Triumph I've seen in a long time :clap

Spout
08-06-17, 21:18
Nice! Love it. I've always had a thing for Trumpet Twin Trials.

earthmover
09-06-17, 12:55
Every "little" job I start turns into a big one. Nothing fits exactly as you'd expect it to, but I suppose this is the fun of such a build.
One such job was to connect the rocker oil feed pipe to the spur off the oil tank. A short length of hose had been on as a bodge, but immediately above the exhaust didn't bode well for longevity. The two pipe o/d's were slightly out, 5mm to 4.5mm, or the imperial equivalent. A 5mm compression fitting took up the slack and stopped me worrying.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-NzBtjJm/0/6ad6094d/L/DSC_10095-L.jpg

The new 54 tooth sprocket arrived from Talon. This is the biggest "off the shelf" sprocket they do for the Tiger Cub hub, but they will make anything you want. I hope I don't need anything bigger, this is huge! I cut another old length of chain to the right size and threaded it on. Seemed a bit stiff, just put it down to the newness (ahem) of the chain in question. It was only when I tried to put the split link on that I realised that it was an o-ring chain, and it was too wide to go through the gap between gearbox sprocket and the back of the clutch housing! And now it was in there, it was a b*st*rd to get out! :blast
Happily, I knew where there was another length, but it took nearly an hour to get.
With this duly wrapped round the sprockets, a quick trip round the garden confirmed that the gearing is lower. Is it low enough? Ask me after the first trial!
Next job, fit a chain guide. I bought a universal one from Sammy Miller, and using the old maxim of measure twice, cut once, made it fit.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-pR7qT4c/0/d7fb2628/L/DSC_0099-L.jpg

Next little job was to sort out an inner mudguard to fit below the main one to stop too much crud getting at the back of the engine. Part of ann old front MX guard did the job admirably. (the other part of the guard is the hugger on my GS)

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-zjDk858/0/aab57847/L/DSC_0101-L.jpg

Another bodge fixed. The connector for the brake arm was turned down for me from an old clevis pin.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-NMMFgBL/0/09d2de8c/L/DSC_0102-L.jpg

And here's the set up with the chain guide, inner mudguard trimmed to fit, and a new chain!

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-Sv8TPxC/0/7c32365a/L/DSC_0103-L.jpg

Getting closer. Just a few little jobs before it's maiden outing, our club trial on 11th June. Made a rash promise to have it ready for then!
Mark

UturnTony
10-06-17, 16:34
Would have gone along to witness the first outing Mark but i'm off down country.
It does look the part, hope it does the job for you.

earthmover
11-06-17, 18:22
So, the little jobs. The chain tensioner still wasn't in the right place. A few washers spaced it out better. The front brake cable outer was shortened so that the piece of meccano could be jettisoned. The seals on the forks were leaking, so I stripped them down, emptied the sludge out of them, and refilled them with fresh oil. One leg has a slight bend to it, but as long as it is positioned correctly it doesn't cause too much of a problem. The awful carbon look stickers were binned, as were the concertina type fork boots. Some clubs insist on them if you enter the Pre 65 class, but I really don't like them. A pair of caps from a set of Montesa forks look so much better.
Whilst fitting the front mudguard to the fork brace I realised that the bolts had distorted its curvature, so I undid it and rebolted it with a piece of hose underneath to give it shape. The last thing was to put the tank badges on. I wanted green ones, but now that I've done it, I think the red ones look just fine. On Saturday, after finishing some odd jobs for my Father, I threw the bike in the trailer and went to the yard to try it out.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-PRPZLDX/0/d2186dde/XL/DSC_10112-XL.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-8BsF9GP/0/1df7ea92/XL/DSC_10113-XL.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-pZwfwgX/0/db422a90/XL/DSC_10114-XL.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-3mXdBd9/0/21fbdb86/L/DSC_10116-L.jpg


Unfortunately, the lowered gearing isn't low enough, and the carb jetting isn't rich enough, as the bike is too quick and too responsive. I could probably ride around one of the two, but not both. :( It would make a pretty good motocrosser as it stand at the moment!
I took it to today's trial, but took the Cub to compete on. Parking it near the butty van drew a stream of compliments, and some ideas as to what could be done to calm it down a little. After the competition was done, I had a play around on it, and invited some of the more knowledgeable members of the club to try it and offer their opinions. The consensus appears to be that a smaller carb would help, as every other Twin is on a 622, whereas mine is a 626. Otherwise it was very well received, one of the experts blasting it through a section with ease, and proving that I may need to work rather more on my technique! :D
A couple of people have offered to dig out a carb for me to try, so that will be the next little job.

Timolgra
19-06-17, 18:11
Well Mark was good enough to let me have a little spin on his beautiful Triumph at the weekend and have to say that unlike an online date, this bike is even better in the flesh!

All pre 65 bikes only work because of the attention to detail and even though Mark was born after British bikes were the norm he's done a sterling job, I really can't wait to see him in action on it :clap

Since seeing it on Saturday I've been wracked with guilt about neglecting mine after my last dismal trial when my own bike was handling so badly I didn't finish.

Started at 7am this morning and got stuck in with a full fork rebuild and much tweaking here and there, plus a good clean to finish off.

Feels much better now, so thanks for the inspiration to sort mine :beerjug:

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/TRIALS/i-kMQ5nXq/0/744a134e/XL/DSCF4151-XL.jpg

earthmover
19-06-17, 20:46
https://youtu.be/IKYqxMVJbsE


This was the result of a call to Surrey Cycles, who supplied an Amal Premier 622, jetted to suit my intended riding. The bike is now a lot calmer, and throttle control is far smoother.
Might just be able to compete on it now.....:D
Mark

earthmover
19-06-17, 20:47
https://youtu.be/HPJpUdepwfI

earthmover
19-06-17, 20:49
As he mentioned, Tim came over to see the bike in the flesh. As I hadn't seen his 950 either we spent a long time talking and pointing. :D


https://youtu.be/yelCzq45k1A

peepingtom
25-06-17, 14:39
A nice one from my local thumper trial https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170625/7fe8fd057f9259fb0d944b5aad7e1dbe.jpg

earthmover
04-07-17, 07:41
A nice one from my local thumper trial

I saw that one, or one very similar, on eBay a couple of years ago. That could have been the start of this odyssey!

After the session at the stables with Tim, I washed the bike off and parked it up, as I was off to the Alps for a little over a week (more on that later).
Another practice session on Saturday, with Denise's daughter Hannah, currently mad keen on trials, and I started to test the bike some more. Whether it was because I was getting more used to the handling, or getting less scared of it, I don't know, but I started to catch the odd splutter when I asked for the throttle. This wasn't ideal, as its debut was the next day!
The first section was nerve wracking, as most of the riders were watching, but thankfully cleaned it! I had dropped down a class in honour of the new bike, so that was a nice confidence inspiring start. Kev Ellis stopped me on the way out of the section and tweaked the carb settings slightly, which helped. Mark Newman, another of the regulars, said he had a box of jets in his van, and we would have a play after the trial. Managed to stay clean until section 6, which had a tight uphill turn across a stream. I drifted a little too wide and ended up with a three. My fault entirely. Section 7 had a tricky turn along the edge of a gully, which played upon your nerve. I chose discretion, and another three. Cleaning the last 3 sections and my first lap on the Twin had only lost 6 marks. I was very pleased, but a bit disconcerted to note oil leaking from the bottom of one of the fork legs. Being used in anger certainly shows up any weaknesses! The rest of the trial was very enjoyable, the score went south with two 5's, one for stalling, and one for missing my footrest, but I did manage to clean the two sections I had earlier had 3's on.
After the trial, good to his word, Mark Newman dug out his Amal box, and we had a fiddle. The setting I thought was already quite rich with a 120 main jet, he ended up increasing to a 150. This cured the hesitation just off idle, and in so doing smoothed out the jerky response. Looking forward to the next trial now, which is one of the Northern Brit Bike Championship rounds.
Mark

earthmover
07-10-17, 14:18
Update.
The Northern British Bike Championship is a seven round series of road trials, always well supported and with some fantastic riding. I had missed the first two, the 3rd I had ridden the Cub, the 4th was to be on the Twin. The West Riding Trial last year had ended in a deluge, but this year we had glorious conditions. I started badly, losing 9 marks over the first 4 sections, but then settled down and began to really enjoy myself. The front end was giving me cause for concern though, a common Pre 65 problem. Modern bikes have very stiff yokes and forks, giving excellent steering control. The forks I had on were wayward to say the least!

https://photos.smugmug.com/2017/i-Xdc62nq/0/05767185/O/IMG_0228.jpg

My riding companion at that trial was Mark Newman, he who had helped with the jetting earlier. It was also he that had let me ride his Pre Unit Twin that I had been disappointed with a couple of years ago. He was very taken by the Drayton frame, and had been making some enquiries about getting one himself. The Maroon coloured bike from the show was for sale as a rolling chassis, the engine having let go in a big way. Mark did the deal and told me he was going to take his time and build it up with an engine he had found, probably as a project over the summer. Which is why he appeared on it not two weeks later!

https://photos.smugmug.com/2017/i-ndfhNs9/0/1027b3b1/L/DSC_0317-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/2017/i-ZMGjTRP/0/8f932ff4/L/DSC_0308-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/2017/i-jSLwj27/0/ea3011b6/L/DSC_0307-L.jpg

Mark

earthmover
07-10-17, 14:35
We swapped bikes a few times, trying to pin down the differences between the two. They were only slight, but mine had a smoother power delivery, whereas Mark's had much better forks.
We were fairly well matched in the trial itself, until the start of the fourth lap. I had cleaned the section 3 times previously, but on this attempt my front wheel had clipped a rock and twisted sideways, pitching me over the bars. As the bike crashed down on its side behind me, there was a slight tinkling sound, which I found was the alloy shock collar off the left side rolling away down the section. I had snapped the end off the shock.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-hzKBNVN/0/36f07ca8/L/DSC_0319-L.jpg

Trial over I pushed it back to the trailer. There is a class for Air Cooled Monoshock trials bikes, but I didn't think it prudent to try and ride anymore that day.
Slight panic though, as the next round of the NBBC was only a week away, with the Llangollen club round. Rockshocks are fully rebuildable though, and a couple of days later I had the repaired item back and ready to go on. The fall, or rather cause of the fall, had made my mind up though. I needed some new forks.
JB had mentioned REH forks earlier, and a lot of other people besides. One of the experts at the Aqueduct club had gone to great lengths to explain the differences between the current new Pre 65 eligible forks on the market, and after trying the front end of his bike I was convinced. I ordered a set, to be collected at the Llangollen trial. I did ponder trying to fit them beforehand, but dismissed it as too much of a rush.
Mark

earthmover
07-10-17, 14:59
The Llangollen trial is also on the same weekend as the Llanfest bike show, and one of the sections was to be in the arena of the show itself. There are 30 sections in total, but joined by some of the best green lanes the area has to offer, and was one of my favourite events of last year. This year didn't disappoint.
Section 1, which I got through clean.

https://photos.smugmug.com/2017/i-3WvNgq9/0/4d201594/L/IMG_0229-L.jpg

Not sure what number this is, but I do know that it was a lot steeper than it looks. I ended up with a 3 after I got off line immediately after the photo!

https://photos.smugmug.com/2017/i-SMcCqs3/0/427e0df8/L/IMG_0230-L.jpg

And this one was a 5. My front wheel should have been a foot further right (as I am on the bike) to make the left turn up the bank. It wasn't, and I didn't.

https://photos.smugmug.com/2017/i-PC69sj3/0/01fb0ae5/L/IMG_0231-L.jpg

This was the last section of the day, launching the bike out of the stream with too much throttle, I very nearly overcooked it!

https://photos.smugmug.com/2017/i-HDKSMg5/0/faa43009/L/IMG_0232-L.jpg

A great days riding. The new forks were ready to go in, and I had picked up a few ideas from various people at the trial for little tweaks to improve the bike still further.
Mark

Timolgra
07-10-17, 15:03
It wasn't, and I didn't.



Brilliant :D

Love this thread Mark :beerjug:

JohnnyBoxer
07-10-17, 15:06
I tried my mates C15 with his new REH forks last week and it steers/rides very well

timeandtide
07-10-17, 15:44
Update.


https://photos.smugmug.com/2017/i-Xdc62nq/0/05767185/O/IMG_0228.jpg



https://photos.smugmug.com/2017/i-ndfhNs9/0/1027b3b1/L/DSC_0317-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/2017/i-ZMGjTRP/0/8f932ff4/L/DSC_0308-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/2017/i-jSLwj27/0/ea3011b6/L/DSC_0307-L.jpg

Mark

Wow!:clap
How lovely are they?:drool:drool:bow:bow





I mean the bikes . . . NOT the riders in case anyone gets the wrong idea!!:ymca

Timolgra
07-10-17, 15:49
Form and function combined :beerjug:

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/TRIALS/i-KfFMfpn/0/7a08f89f/XL/DSCF4598-XL.jpg

earthmover
07-10-17, 16:42
Very timely intervention there Tim. :D
After being away on holiday for a week with the family, I was eager to get the new front end sorted. The forks really are a work of art, and with them fitted I was pleased with how they felt bouncing it up and down in the garage. I nipped to the stables for an afternoon, with a mind to try and get the jetting better as well. The bike felt brilliant, the forks made the rear feel a lot better as well, the whole bike was now more supple over roots and such. I also got the jetting so that the hesitation I had just off idle was now further up the rev range, at about 1/8th to 1/4 throttle. At that point momentum took care of it so I was very pleased, I now had smooth control at next to no revs, and she pulled beautifully through the hiccup. My next problem might be fuel consumption, as it was very rich from mid to full throttle. Not my greatest concern, unless in a road trial......

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-x3wWr8p/0/abcb5e53/L/DSC_0571-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-rgQ4dZr/0/0aa2d6c6/L/DSC_0572-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-s8MgpcZ/0/7ccc6329/L/DSC_0580-L.jpg

A better test would be at one of the practice grounds, so I rang around to see who was free for a couple of hours at Kynastons farm. Timolgra was keen to see how his hand would fare, as well as trying the Twin. Mark Newman had also been working on his Twin, so was looking forward to comparing notes. The photo Tim took shows three Drayton framed bikes, mine and Mark's Twins, and Tim's BSA C15.
My suspension felt superb over some of the rocky sections we practiced on, and the jetting meant I could find grip on snotty banks with ease. But Mark's didn't have the hiccup. :confused:
One theory put forward was that my timing might be a bit too advanced, and as that is fairly easy to change, I made a mental note to look at that next.
Mark

timeandtide
07-10-17, 17:50
Form and function combined :beerjug:

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/TRIALS/i-KfFMfpn/0/7a08f89f/XL/DSCF4598-XL.jpg

Eye candy . . . got to say it's the twins for me tho' Tim.

Timolgra
07-10-17, 18:11
Eye candy . . . got to say it's the twins for me tho' Tim.

Oh me too, I saw the red one for sale a few years ago and was besotted.

The Other PaulG
08-10-17, 08:42
Thanks for taking the time to write that up, it's fascinating to watch a bike come together.

It's a beautiful thing too - I can see a few other folks drifting towards the pre '65 scene, the bikes are just so full of character. Enjoy it!

UturnTony
10-10-17, 14:09
Just rediscovered this thread Mark. Looking and sounding good.

You mention a Kev Ellis, there was a Malcom Ellis riding when i was into Pre 65 and he was pretty good as i remember;
IIRC he rode a Royal Enfield, just wondering if their is a connection.

It's just come to me, it was Stan Ellis not Malcom.

earthmover
03-11-17, 18:44
The comment about the timing being a little out stuck in my head, and wanting things to be perfect, I set about adjusting it.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-7GT8W8n/0/699646d4/L/DSC_0159-L.jpg

Remember this picture? If you ignore the orange gasket and look at the three studs that the stator is mounted on. Notice that the stator is at the end of the adjustment in the slotted holes, and to retard the timing any more, the stator needs to be turned anti-clockwise. Not a problem, thinks I, the rotor is on a taper lock, not a woodruff key so if I loosen the nut slightly I can tap the rotor round. You can see where this is going can't you? I had taken the plugs out to turn the engine over earlier, and using my clutch holding tool to give me enough purchase, undid the nut holding the rotor on. I had a pair of vise grips set to a similar size to the hex on the rotor and tried to move it slightly clockwise, only 5mm or so........
Well the fu*king thing slipped, the rotor came off the shaft, and my pressure on the clutch holding tool was enough to put half a revolution on the engine. Bugger. Well and truly back to square one.

Mark

Timolgra
03-11-17, 19:03
Bugger :blast that's your Saturday morning spoken for, see you Sunday for the trial?

earthmover
13-11-17, 17:57
The first thing I needed to do was to get the timing back to where it had been before. This accomplished, with the rotor and stator lined up so that there was adjustment available to save me going through the whole excercise again, I set about retarding the ignition a degree at a time. The old school measurement is apparently to check how many mm down the piston is from BTDC, which everybody told me should be 1.6mm. Mine is now at 1.2mm BTDC, and has softened the response some more.
One of the other riders who had taken the bike for a spin felt that a bigger pilot jet, and/or throttle slide would richen the lower end without making the top too rich. All of my previous experience with jetting off road bikes (admittedly two stroke motocrossers) has been trying for as lean as possible, to get that elusive "biscuit" colour on the plug electrode, and a sharp throttle response. All the advise I'm being given at the moment is to make the bike as rich as possible to soften the response. Makes sense, but goes against the grain!
Each of these adjustments have been made seperately, and then the bike used in a trial, to make sure I'm not confusing the issue. As this rambling report is not exactly linked to a timeline, I have done quite a few trials, with varying degrees of success, in between these posts. This shows up any other failings in either bike, or rider.
As I mentioned earlier, I was using a standard 520 chain, as there wasn't enough room for an x or o ring version. Given the conditions this is operating in, it soon stretched, and started to jump the rear sprocket. The first time this happened caught me quite by surprise at the top of a sharp bank, as I was preparing to turn right. The sudden loss of forward motion pitched me sideways down the bank, complete with a lump of hot, heavy British iron. Thankfully we parted company before the bottom! Once again I heard an metallic "ping" as I fell, and quickly scanned the bike for what had broken now.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-RFqFTht/0/954be36d/L/DSC_0593-L.jpg

She'll never win a beauty pageant if I keep knocking chunks out of her!

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-5M5RX9M/0/ef796ed5/L/DSC_0594-L.jpg

Lots of tinkering with a laser line and a straight edge confirmed that yes, I did have the sprockets lined up, but if I have one snail cam adjuster set a notch before the other, the chain stays on. Go figure? :nenau
A better fitting chain guide stops as much mud getting onto the chain, which also helps.
Bringing us neatly up to the present, two successive trials, and each one getting closer to what I want. I have gone back to the Intermediate route, so the sections are that bit tougher, but I now feel I have the bike performing more how I want. The deficiencies are now down to the nut holding the bars.........:D
Thank goodness Timolgra didn't have his camera with him for the last trial though, as section 5 could have produced a front page shot.
Mark

Timolgra
13-11-17, 18:03
Thank goodness Timolgra didn't have his camera with him for the last trial though, as section 5 could have produced a front page shot.
Mark

Lesson learnt Mark:green gri, in fact considering using my GoPro so I couldn't miss such a spectacular dismount, unfortunately it would've also captured my two flights over the handlebars on Saturday :blast:D

earthmover
19-04-18, 15:56
https://photos.smugmug.com/2018/i-PfCqZ3D/0/f0b7c3c2/L/DSC_0091-L.jpg

Mark Newman, of the maroon coloured twin fame, had just finished helping put together another twin for one of the club founders. He brought it to the last trial for a test run. I checked it over for things that might be useful on mine. :D

https://photos.smugmug.com/2018/i-TTNkps3/0/b1ac4e1f/L/IMG_0281-L.jpg

This picture taken by Timolgra's wife, Ange, who was observing the section. Very brave of her, considering my history of launching bikes at observers!
The last couple of events have been marked by a considerable amount of smoke from my bike, getting steadily worse. A sweepstake of the various expert opinions all so common in classic trials came to the conclusion that the valve guides were shot. After the trial (April 1st) I set to with the spanners again.
Mark

earthmover
20-04-18, 18:21
The great thing about competing on the Pre 65 and Twinshock circuit is that you are rarely short of something to do on the bike. Some people might view that as a less than good thing I suppose. Even if you haven't broken or worn something out, there is always a new idea, or a rehashed old idea to try. We'll come to that later, but for now lets strip the top end off again and have a look.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-67fCb5z/0/d8d11be2/L/DSC_0097-L.jpg

Tank and seat off.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-v58hfRb/0/20e6cb5c/L/DSC_0098-L.jpg

Taking the "silencer" off was harder than expected, because some muppet had fastened the chainguard over the bolt.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-7CbXxCr/0/b8dad68e/L/DSC_10099-L.jpg

And removing the rest of the exhaust system required some gentle persuasion.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-2qvxkDP/0/f805f319/L/DSC_10102-L.jpg

Carb off.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-vHkPW4D/0/1f3a3d4c/L/DSC_0104-L.jpg

Rocker covers.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-vQShmZS/0/b61338b1/L/DSC_10107-L.jpg

And this is what the cylinder head looks like inside! Ugh.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-hVhSDBB/0/690911aa/L/DSC_0114-L.jpg

I know the rings haven't done that much, but seems silly not to have a look while we are this far in.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-KvBVCcQ/0/37189170/L/DSC_20120-L.jpg

So with the pistons and barrel off and on the bench we can have a look at the ring gap and general condition.
Mark

Timolgra
20-04-18, 18:57
Good job Mark.....did someone mention Tiger Cub low compression pistons? .......

earthmover
21-04-18, 07:35
More than one person Tim, and also machining 3mm off the standard pistons. I'm really not sure about that idea, so will keep it as it is for now.
Mark

earthmover
28-04-18, 19:14
https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-GkbmcC5/0/d9b680cf/L/DSC_10121-L.jpg

I was concerned to find that the rings were well worn, after what I would consider a very short time. One of the things that had been worying me about the bike was the state of the oil. There is only a mesh strainer in the sump plug, and despite me changing the oil regularly, it was often very dirty. One theory was that a modern oil would be washing the dirt out of the crankshaft sludge trap, but without splitting the cases I wasn't going to be sure. Rather than go to that trouble at this stage, I decided to fit an in-line filter.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-wxrHtVb/0/9e145c4c/L/DSC_0132-L.jpg

The head I sent to SRM engineering in Aberystwyth, who have an excellent reputation though are certainly not the cheapest. Whilst the barrel was off, I cleaned it up and painted it to smarten things up a little, then gave it a light hone ready for rings.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-Dnx7jst/0/af7963d1/L/DSC_10122-L.jpg

New piston rings arrived within a couple of days, so without further ado they went in, and the barrel back on.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-gFCRmG9/0/0b9c1da0/L/DSC_0127-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-Z3PGnBM/0/cfc2b1aa/L/DSC_10128-L.jpg

Mark

earthmover
30-04-18, 17:59
SRM had the head back to me within 10 days, on a Friday, which I was pretty damn pleased about. Almost enough time to have it back on ready for Sunday's trial. If I spent all Saturday in the garage instead of going out on the road bikes with Denise.........:green gri

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-tDLBRHT/0/9eec5631/L/DSC_0134-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-c3H8Qmm/0/36450967/L/DSC_0135-L.jpg

With the time I had available I managed to get the bulk of the top end back together.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-J9bZKS2/0/4ad338d7/L/DSC_0136-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-npWk82M/0/0a9eb2b5/L/DSC_0140-L.jpg

Just the exhausts to slip on and we're nearly there.
Mark

earthmover
03-05-18, 17:23
The exhaust system fits very tightly to the engine and frame, and as such is a bit of a bugger to get on. You seem to be wrestling with it for ages getting nowhere near, and suddenly it pops into place! Hence why there are no pictures. It had been pointed out to me that the system was designed to not need the finned rose clamps to hold it on, so they have been left off, probably saving a couple of kilos. With everything in place the last job before the tank and seat was to check the valve clearances. Now as I was assembling I had been very careful to put everything back in the same place it had come from, having marked where each pushrod, follower, rocker box etc came from. At each stage I had turned the engine over gently to ensure the bits that should go up and down were actually doing that. So imagine my surprise to find that the right hand inlet rocker had no adjustment. :nenau It was as though I had put a longer pushrod in?
Turning the engine over showed the correct sequence of valves opening and closing, so I put the plugs in, put the tank on and wheeled it outside. Very gingerly leaning on the kickstart and bugger me if it didn't start! Ah well, no horrible noises, so I let it tick over, checking for oil returning from the sump, and cracking the rocker line nuts to see if oil was getting up there. With everything seeming satisfactory, I blipped the throttle to get that glorious twin exhaust note, then wheeled it back into the garage. I was already late for a meal out with Denise, Hannah and my Dad.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-Z79rGWP/0/789c18e6/L/DSC_0144-L.jpg

No sump guard on, so that I can check the oil connections, but otherwise good to go (I think) Can anyone spot what else has changed while the engine was being done? Don't tell them Tim! :D
Mark

earthmover
03-05-18, 17:35
Is it the fact that I've raised the bars?

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-m4dgkr8/0/004647fc/L/DSC_0142-L.jpg

Everybody tries each other's bikes out after a trial, unless you're really anal, or your bike is a heap of junk. After 3 people asked if the bars weren't a bit too low, I thought there might be something in it and put some old clamps underneath. They only lift the bars by 20mm, but it did make a huge difference to the feel of the bike.
But no, that isn't it.
Mark

earthmover
03-05-18, 17:43
Is it the home made folding gear lever?

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-RxzzMmx/0/87d0411e/L/DSC_0145-L.jpg

The marks on the timing cover show where the extra width of the Twin (or the ineptitude of it's pilot) can cause a problem. With the original, solid gearlever, just after you hit the rock that caused the mark, the bike could get knocked out of gear. At the top of a steep climb, that can be entertaining to say the least.
This is a combination of a Yamaha folding lever and a Triumph splined end. Sadly, the welder didn't quite grasp the concept of right hand gear levers, as it would be far better tilted down, but its an improvement.
But no, that isn't it either.
Mark

dean0n0
03-05-18, 19:52
Has serious money been spent on the front end?

earthmover
04-05-18, 04:48
Do you mean the REH forks? See post #60 for that. :D
Mark

earthmover
04-05-18, 17:47
The following day was one of our local club trials, but as I didn't expect the Twin to be up and running I had opted to ride the Tiger Cub. At the trial there were three Twins, one on a shakedown before the Pre 65 Scottish, one being tested after being built for one of the expert riders, and one that I had heard about but hitherto disbelieved.
The first two were in Drayton frames just like my own, the other a home modified road frame. Fair play to the guy for going his own way, on perhaps a more authentic Pre 65 tack, but he really needs to get a better welder. Pretty it isn't.
I was offered a ride on the two Drayton bikes to see what I thought, and its surprising how very different they all feel despite sharing the same geometry.
Also, I had a chance to run my valve question by other people to see what their opinions were. Most suspected that I hadn't lined a pushrod up properly.
All this meant that as soon as I got home the Tiger Cub was left dirty while I had a look at the Twin! (I was off the next day, so cleaning it then. :thumb)

The valve adjuster now had loads of clearance. :nenau Tim put forward a theory that the pushrod cap might have come away from the rod slightly, thus lengthening it, until a very determined tappet hammered it back down. Whatever it was, I could now adjust it to the correct measurement. With this done I ran the engine for a good fifteen minutes (my neighbours love me!) and the wheeled it into the garage to dump the oil and change the filter.
Mark

earthmover
11-05-18, 17:25
Anyway, back to the "What else has changed" question.
The wheels, that's what. :D

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-n8tFhrP/0/f6438d6d/L/DSC_0143-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-w4qSmJJ/0/6fcbfcf6/L/DSC_0148-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-FntNSrz/0/396d1ca2/L/DSC_0146-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-DBGhqbq/0/dbdbdd45/L/DSC_0149-L.jpg

Once I had got more in tune with the bike, the more I was enjoying riding it, but the old second hand wheels were letting it down. I should have been collecting them at Telford show, exactly a year after this project started, but the wheelbuilder broke his arm! The hubs are Tiger Cub replicas, but manufactured this year.The brake plates have a self centering pivot, so you can get the shoes contacting the (perfectly round!) drum evenly. Stainless steel spokes laced to alloy rims, and just for good measure, a brand new IRC tubed rear tyre and a Michelin front. I collected them at the end of April from Jim Pickering, "Mr Drayton" himself. I had asked for a brake plate adaptor to fit the REH forks, which dispenses with the need for an anchor arm. He had one, but hadn't fitted it because he couldn't quite remember who it was wanted it. It shows the difference between an engineer and a spanner twiddler though, when he pressed it into place with a fly press, where I would have used the lump hammer next to it. :blast
Mark

Timolgra
11-05-18, 21:24
Looking forward to the next installment....perhaps we'll hear about the timing cover inci'dent' :D

earthmover
12-05-18, 10:39
Thanks Tim, not much chance of keeping my little indiscretions quiet with you around! :augie :D
Denise's daughter has taken an interest in trials, but so far the ones we had been to had easy sections, but it was difficult to get to some of them. This meant she was leaving some sections out and losing both marks and confidence. One of the other riders suggested we try one of Manchester 17's Dead Easy Trials, the clue being in the name.
Bank Holiday Monday saw weather almost too nice for trials, but as I had promised, away we went. The venue was on the other side of Congleton at a farm that also hosts weddings, with catering and a large flat paddock for parking. The sections were all laid out on the hillside beyond the paddock with stunning views over the Peak district and within easy walking distance for spectators. As there were only a couple of other people there that knew me, there was a lot of interest in the Twin, and a lot of appreciative comments.
There were only two routes, the beginners route, and the clubman. I rode round with Talei and helped her with each section until she got over her nerves and by the end she was doing nearly all of them by herself. I did warn her on the way there that she was likely to get beaten by a five year old on an electric Oset, but to take consolation from the fact that their seven year old sibling would be beating me on a small wheeled Beta 50. And so it came to pass. I lost 11 marks, one safety dab, and two fives for following the white route instead of my own. Concentrating too much on Talei's line and forgetting mine! :blast Talei dropped 41, but was made up at having finished. She now knows more of what she can and can't do so is looking forward to the next trial.
Sadly no photos, as I was too busy, and Denise's phone died.
Towards the end of the day, I noticed oil on my back tyre, from the main breather . What was that all about? Oil was still circulating back to the tank, so it wasn't blocked anywhere. Was it just the heat? Pondering this dilemma , I washed the oil off when I got home. As I was scrubbing the back tyre, I managed to push the bike off the sidestand and buried the throttle in the mud. Cursing and swearing, I cleaned that off and pushed the bike into the garage to start dismantling to investigate the breather issue.
It was then that I noticed this:

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-hGjmqZw/0/b289772a/L/DSC_0161-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-qWhVX5g/0/4a18a1b1/L/DSC_0162-L.jpg

When the bike had fallen over, the gear lever had punched into the timing cover and split it. How very amusing. Not.

I have access to a very good welder, but he polishes things with a 6" angle grinder. I know it won't leak at least. I also pointed out the issue with the gear lever being at the wrong angle, and perhaps being a few mm too long. He fixed that FOC for me, as it had been his misunderstanding earlier. I took the opportunity to change the folding end for a stubby one too. Will paint it after I've tried it in a trial to make sure it works.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-QHJ7TgB/0/7a2e41ce/L/DSC_0172-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Rebuilds/i-T3BHWGG/0/d527d612/L/DSC_0171-L.jpg

The next trial is tomorrow, so some of my questions will soon be answered!
Mark

UturnTony
15-05-18, 15:42
Loved reading the latest updates Mark. Takes me back a long way seeing that engine being worked on :thumb2

earthmover
06-06-18, 16:18
Having done another practice session where everything worked OK, I had entered for the Reliance Cup trial on 3rd of June. This is one of the NBBC road trial series, and was in the Peak district around Buxton. I have to say the bike performed brilliantly, only let down by the rider! One of the problems with a road trial though, is that you spend a lot of time in a rev range that you aren't used to, and start to hear noises that may or may not be there! Thankfully nothing fell off, or broke so all good. Here's a clip of me in section 3, swiped off Facebook.


https://www.facebook.com/andrew.cooke.716/videos/2116883204993764/?t=8

Mark