1150 GS Wont Start. Possible Fuel Pump

[Ian J Hartley]

I think a lot of the problem here is no logical approach to the problem, you seem to be leaping in here and there with the help of a few on here.

Very true, but B4ndit was asked at post 72 if he had an alarm or immobiliser fitted, it's not until post 89 that we find the bike has got an alarm, and most probably an imobiliser, connected across the fuel pump wiring.

Everyone is trying to help, and towards the end there was a danger of the bike turning into a mechano kit.

But at the end of the day, no harm done and everyone involved has learned something. The first question with any non starting electric problem has got to be "HAS IT GOT AN ALARM/ IMMOBILISER FITTED ?"

 

[(RIP) DitchWater]

Having just spent the day on a cold Welsh hillside in the shade of a ridge and wishing the sunshine falling on the other side of the valley was bathing me, I was hoping for an update from the OP by now.

What happened today then? I'm sure you want your bike back!

 

[The Grey One]

... The first question with any non starting electric problem has got to be "HAS IT GOT AN ALARM/ IMMOBILISER FITTED ?"

NO. The first question should be is the battery OK and has correct voltage". Followed by "does something happen when you turn the key" "does the starter operate when I press the button, "is there actually any fuel there despite what the fuel gauge might say". And so on, otherwise you might rip out the alarm only to find the problem is still there and no way of knowing if you have made matter worse in so doing.

When I started working on cars professionally I was given some first rate advice. Always start with the simple things. This whole sorry tale is a story of not doing that and of not following a logical and methodical approach, no wonder the OP thinks electrics are a nightmare.

And yes I agree alarms/immobilisers can be suspect but my experience is it was often the bodged fitting of same that causes the problem.

I suspect someone like Steptoe would have had the bike up and running in a hour. I've no idea what his hourly rate is but I think that, compared to the grief and stress you have had (not to mention time without a functioning bike) it would have been a bargain

John

 

[richierex]

Oh dear, now its the alarm, not the starter button, not the ECU, not the relay, Not the stand switch, not the nuetral switch or its wiring, well, well.

I think the first question to ask if you have an electrical fault is " have I got a clue".

 

[(RIP) DitchWater]

I'd still like to know what the voltage reading is on the connector to fuel pump when trying to start the bike before discounting anyone's experience or suppostions as to what the problem is.

Come on B4andit! Put the bike back together and tell us what happens when you wedge your multimeter leads into the fuel pump connector and read the voltage when the starter button is being pressed down. THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT. If the numbers show around 12Vdc, more or less, then you have a problem inside the tank and if not, it is before that 4 pin connector on the right hand side of your bike.

 

[B4ndit]

Well Ditchwater what have I done today. Got my head around how the alarm is installed. It was going to come out today but other things got in the way. It looks pretty simple to remove. I never liked it anyway so thats hopefully the end of that tomorrow evening. I have also taken this opportunity to clean all the wiring and connector plugs. They were covered in some horrible black stuff (Probably ACF 50 and road crap). I then neatened all the wiring by routing it much better. Numerous add ons such as GPS, fog lights etc had been added all on top of one another. And the alarm adds a whole new meaning to spaghetti junction. They now follow one nice route in a neat bunch.

Not sure if I will put it all back tomorrow evening but it should be back together Tuesday for a test fire (Fingers crossed). I could really do with getting it back on the road. I have just seen diesel advertised at £149.9, thats frightening.

 

[(RIP) DitchWater]

If your Add On's have been installed corectly then you shouldn't have to worry about them and you should just have to concentrate on the starting circuit. Please verify what's going on with the power supply when you try to start the bike.

 

[B4ndit]

Took a few hours out of work today to fiddle with this bike again. I finished up tidying the wiring and cleaning it. Then I started on removing the alarm. I cut out all the wires and made good as necessary. Then rebound it all so water can't get in in the future. After fitting the battery and before putting the tank back on I turned on the ignition. Whilst doing so I was able to hear a nice big clunk from the fuel pump relay. But after one second it went open circuit. But that was a step forward from where I had been previously. Next it was back on with the tank. Make all the connections and then turn the ignition on again. Straight away the fuel pump whirred into life. Ha ha. Then it was turn her over a few times until some fuel got into the system. A bang off she went. Now it starts first time which it never did in the past, it always used to take two thumbs of the starter. All appears to be good. I shall take it for a test run in the morning. So if anyone wants a Data Tool Veto Evo Alarm before I throw it in the bin contact me quick. Also as I don't think I should post such info on an open forum if anyone wants help in removing such an alarm feel free to PM me.
Thanks to all those who offered help and inspiration.

Just in case someone does a search my symptoms were a a bike that would turn over and spark but not prime the fuel pump.

 

[B4ndit]

Oh dear, now its the alarm, not the starter button, not the ECU, not the relay, Not the stand switch, not the nuetral switch or its wiring, well, well.

I think the first question to ask if you have an electrical fault is " have I got a clue".

Maybe not but maybe yes.

 

[richierex]

I`ll get my coat. Good luck.

 

[B4ndit]

NO. The first question should be is the battery OK and has correct voltage". Followed by "does something happen when you turn the key" "does the starter operate when I press the button, "is there actually any fuel there despite what the fuel gauge might say". And so on, otherwise you might rip out the alarm only to find the problem is still there and no way of knowing if you have made matter worse in so doing.

When I started working on cars professionally I was given some first rate advice. Always start with the simple things. This whole sorry tale is a story of not doing that and of not following a logical and methodical approach, no wonder the OP thinks electrics are a nightmare.

And yes I agree alarms/immobilisers can be suspect but my experience is it was often the bodged fitting of same that causes the problem.

I suspect someone like Steptoe would have had the bike up and running in a hour. I've no idea what his hourly rate is but I think that, compared to the grief and stress you have had (not to mention time without a functioning bike) it would have been a bargain

John

No grief and stress. Just a bit of fun diagnosing some simple problems. I wanted to articulate everything I had done so it may help some poor sole in the future. If you can;t see that then god help you.

There are some very knowledgeable people on this site and there are also some clever people who delight in making people look stupid. At the end of the day its a BMW. The finish may be crap for an expensive bike but most of its pretty logical to work on. The one thing I don't look forward to replacing is a clutch but I will at least try it. Its what having an old bike is all about.

And at the end of the day I solved the problem. I feel proud of that. So guys unless you have a positive comment in future don't bother. Forums are for help not criticisms. Thats the wonder of the web.

 

[B4ndit]

I`ll get my coat. Good luck.

Problem solved.

 

[B4ndit]

Oh dear, now its the alarm, not the starter button, not the ECU, not the relay, Not the stand switch, not the nuetral switch or its wiring, well, well.

I think the first question to ask if you have an electrical fault is " have I got a clue".

It was all about eliminating any problems. So how do you diagnose a problem. You have got to do some checking. Or is there some secret you have you would like to enlighten us!

As said. Any help is appreciated. Piss taking is not.

And if I was going to pay any one to do it I wouldn't be on here asking for help.

 

[B4ndit]

At the end of the day sorting alarm problems is always going to be a nightmare. I thought originally the fuel pump had packed up. Thanks to Steptoe that was eliminated with a 12v direct feed. then it was time to look elsewhere. It was simple to check other things on the starting circuit. Which I did and I articulated here. To a couple of peoples delight these simple checks would appear to be a waste of time. They must all be electrical experts.

Then as I studied the wiring more closely the alarm started to look like a culprit. And lo and behold so it was to be.

In the process I was able to tidy up all the add on wiring and clean the original loom.

And for the last week I have had to rely on an old dependable jap bike.

 

[(RIP) DitchWater]

Excellent news and well done.

 

[richierex]

At the end of the day sorting alarm problems is always going to be a nightmare. I thought originally the fuel pump had packed up. Thanks to Steptoe that was eliminated with a 12v direct feed. then it was time to look elsewhere. It was simple to check other things on the starting circuit. Which I did and I articulated here. To a couple of peoples delight these simple checks would appear to be a waste of time. They must all be electrical experts.

Then as I studied the wiring more closely the alarm started to look like a culprit. And lo and behold so it was to be.

In the process I was able to tidy up all the add on wiring and clean the original loom.

And for the last week I have had to rely on an old dependable jap bike.

Hey, well done but hindsight is a wonderful thing, what was that bit about stripping the starter button about! But as I said you got there in the end but you dont really have to be an expert to see what went wrong.

 

[richierex]

It was all about eliminating any problems. So how do you diagnose a problem. You have got to do some checking. Or is there some secret you have you would like to enlighten us!

As said. Any help is appreciated. Piss taking is not.

And if I was going to pay any one to do it I wouldn't be on here asking for help.

Nobody is taking the piss, but this thread reads like a comedy of errors, sorry but try rereading it. You are now trying to say that you checked through different items until you arrived at the alarm as the culprit. You diagnose a problem by looking at what is happening and comparing that to what should be happening. You didnt even do this.

What really happened was you dived in with the help of a few other experts on here and checked everything, everywhere, In fact it seems it was an immobiliser fault on the fuel pump circuit. Like I said, good luck, I thought it might have had something to do with the sidestand switch but no. This thread is a good example of why it is sometimes easier and cheaper to ask an expert. Oh yes, you even ignored some expert advise in your "checking" frenzy.

Like I said, good luck.

 

[SpanishJohn]

Nobody is taking the piss, but this thread reads like a comedy of errors, sorry but try rereading it. You are now trying to say that you checked through different items until you arrived at the alarm as the culprit. You diagnose a problem by looking at what is happening and comparing that to what should be happening. You didnt even do this.

What really happened was you dived in with the help of a few other experts on here and checked everything, everywhere, In fact it seems it was an immobiliser fault on the fuel pump circuit. Like I said, good luck, I thought it might have had something to do with the sidestand switch but no. This thread is a good example of why it is sometimes easier and cheaper to ask an expert. Oh yes, you even ignored some expert advise in your "checking" frenzy.

Like I said, good luck.

I've just read this thread and you know what - I would have probably done just the same as B4andit and I'm degree qualified in electronics. Tracing elecrical faults on these bikes is very difficult, given the age and the birds nest of wires under the tank, and then communicating this to a forum - well I wouldn't do it. Well done B4ndit. Richierex your an idiot mate!

SJ

 

[DrFarkoff]

Tracing elecrical faults on these bikes is very difficult, given the age and the birds nest of wires under the tank,

BOLLOX!! Diagnosing from first principles is the basic process to follow in everything!

"A" enters process at point "y" and should be available at point "Q" If it doesn't why not?

He was told in the first few posts about a "most" probable cause, Now If we had been given the information about the alarm earlier we would have pointed him there!

The wiring in these bikes is quite simple and robust but now they are getting older corrosion causes problems and people like Steptoe working on them all the time let every body know

 

[Ian J Hartley]

I agree with DrFarkoff. Fault finding these bikes, is not difficult, and you don't need a degree to do it. Just follow basic principles?

On reflection, I think B4ndit did a good job, he found the fault in the end and rectified it. While he went about it in a roundabout way he did get there in the end, and has probably learned a lot about his bike in the process. It just goes to show what time and perseverance can deliver.

There is no point in recriminations, because at the end of the day all the posts have been with good intention. Advice is freely given, most of the advice was accurate and pointing him in the right direction, whether B4ndit chooses to take that advice or follow his own path is up to him.

However, I do think this is thread is a salutary lesson, when asking for help to list as much about the symptoms as well as any after market mods that might be fitted.