1200GS engine failure

[Gizmo*]

I'd be more worried about what happens to the oil when bike is parked on its sidestand for long periods, if the oil drains down back to sump, as you start bike it has to pressurise up and get forced to the RH pot filling empty oilways as it goes. going back many years to a laverda 500 montjuic it was common practice to pull the cam cover off and oil everything if bike had been standing, the camshaft bearing was fragile and drained of oil those first few seconds soon caused damage.

Oil pressure will be the same on each side of engine but LH pot will still have oil in so less chance of damage at start up on that side.

hmm, it might also apply if a bike is warm and oil thin, it gets put on sidestand, oil returns to sump quickly and when restarted takes a few seconds to return, I'd think police bikes are used like that, warmed up, stop to do something , parked on sidestand and restarted, almost all their "working" life will be like that.

mileage might not be important, a low mileage bike which gets used once a week could also be affected by same thing

 

[Tractorpilot]

Follow the link on post #8 on this thread if you want to see the pics of the first seizure. The valve has sheared off the stem but whether that is cause or effect I don't know. Have a look and see if you can figure anything out (apart from it being one heck of a mess of course).

 

[Owen Snell]

I'd be more worried about what happens to the oil when bike is parked on its sidestand for long periods, if the oil drains down back to sump, as you start bike it has to pressurise up and get forced to the RH pot filling empty oilways as it goes. ........

Valid point. I don't leave the bike idling on the sidestand because it seems wrong to do so, but I do leave it parked up in the shed on the sidestand because I can't be bothered to put it on the centre stand I do always bring it up to vertical before starting, but if your assumption is correct, this may help but will not stop the basic problem of oil starvation on start up

Looks like the centre stand from now on, just to be on the safe side!

 

[Tractorpilot]

me too

 

[Owen Snell]

Follow the link on post #8 on this thread if you want to see the pics of the first seizure. The valve has sheared off the stem but whether that is cause or effect I don't know. Have a look and see if you can figure anything out (apart from it being one heck of a mess of course).

Saw the pictures at the start of the thread, but it would take more than these to work out a cause. Very unlikely that the stem failed on its own, most likely effect rather than cause.

You would have to go over the wreckage with a fine toothcomb to find out, but I assume that BMW have all the parts for investigation and that they know exactly what has gone wrong. Since they paid for the repair, it seems unlikely that you will get the bits back to have a look at, but it would not be unreasonable to ask them for the engineer's report on the wreckage just to help you avoid any reoccurrence.

 

[Gizmo*]

so all BM need to do is move the filler cap from left pot to right and one could drop a little oil in if it has been on side stand :

 

[littleredkelpie]

Valid point. I don't leave the bike idling on the sidestand because it seems wrong to do so, but I do leave it parked up in the shed on the sidestand because I can't be bothered to put it on the centre stand I do always bring it up to vertical before starting, but if your assumption is correct, this may help but will not stop the basic problem of oil starvation on start up

Looks like the centre stand from now on, just to be on the safe side!

The damage to mine appeared much less dramatic than the photos in #8. The head of one of the exhaust valves on RHS had simply dropped off and was buried into the top of the piston - looked just like a 10p piece dropping into the slot of money box. (It then proceeded to beat the shite out of everything else within reach, of course)

As said early, I rarely used the sidestand - never overnight, simply because the garage is a bit tight. So whilst the sidestand theory is convenient/easy, it doesn't it for me.

 

[Sgt Bilco]

The damage to mine appeared much less dramatic than the photos in #8. The head of one of the exhaust valves on RHS had simply dropped off and was buried into the top of the piston - looked just like a 10p piece dropping into the slot of money box. (It then proceeded to beat the shite out of everything else within reach, of course)

As said early, I rarely used the sidestand - never overnight, simply because the garage is a bit tight. So whilst the sidestand theory is convenient/easy, it doesn't it for me.

I think you`ve just had a failrure which can happen to anything. Engine problems really aren`t a common issue with the boxer no matter what year or model. Electrics on the 12`s are a different matter though.....

Hope it gets fixed satisfactorily and you enjoy many miles of riding.....

 

[littleredkelpie]

What I do know is Suzuki are complete and utter shite the build is appauling and the warranty is not worth a **** .and yes I have owned quite a few .


Why A suzuki owner would insist on ramming his clearly sub standard Gutless POS down the throat of a group of people who clearly like another marque is beyond me ?????

Yes my watch is worth more than your pile of crap bike .

god I wish I'd said that.

 

[Gizmo*]

applying a bit of logic :

are the part numbers for valves same for left cylinder and right cylinder?
If yes then its unlikely its a duff material problem, its more than likely a consequence of a design difference or operation of the right pot v's left or you'd see failures on left pot as well.

is it always the same valve that goes? if yes then its down to something thats different between that on left and right pots and the other valves.....

 

[littleredkelpie]

I think you`ve just had a failrure which can happen to anything. Engine problems really aren`t a common issue with the boxer no matter what year or model. Electrics on the 12`s are a different matter though.....

Hope it gets fixed satisfactorily and you enjoy many miles of riding.....

I don't suggest that engine failure is 'common', I wouldn't have bought one if I thought that was the case. The issue for me has always been whether or not the problem is repeating - suggestive of a design fault - built into the engine. The mere fact that this humble thread can turn up over half a dozen failures with marked similarities (exhaust valve, right hand side, low mileage), in only a couple of weeks, makes me more than a little curious of the picture worldwide. Every example of dropped valves in 12s, of which I have heard, has involved exhaust valves on the RHS on low mileage bikes. I don't believe in luck, everything in life has a cause and if the problem is repeating, than random mechanical failure is simply not true.

Anecdotal evidence that the boxer has proved itself to be extremely reliable mechanically, over zillions of miles, only strengthens the likelihood that there is more to this RHS valve sh#tfight in 12s than merely random bad luck. If the quality of the valves are at fault, then how do they only manage to fit the faulty ones to the right hand side, and I don't buy the sidestand argument simply because of my own pattern of use.

Don't mistake me for someone who knows, I don't have the answer. And unless someone is privy to the monthly BMW 'What Faults Do We Need To Fix Now' meeting, and is prepared to show and tell here on this site, then I don't expect I will ever really know. I just get really p#ssed at the thought that owners are being asked to hand over exorbitant amounts of money to repair a built in fault. Nice earner if you can get away with it. I give BMW a fat 0 out of 100 for contributing to the cost of repairs on 'out of warranty' bikes because in my case, and others, this 'offer' has been a reluctant and hard won concession.

My bike is back on the road - has it been satisfactorily repaired - I will reserve that judgement for a time 60,000 miles down the road. Unless, of course, I contract mad cow disease in the meantime and buy a suzuki strom! Feck that bike is ugly. In response to someone elses post, after minimum possible consideration, I can honestly say I would adopt a horse drawn gypsy caravan - without a horse, as my sole means of personal transport long before I would part with money in exchange for a bloody suzuki strom - 650 OR 1000. good grief.

Travel well.

ps. Truth be known, I will sell this bike before warranty on the repair work expires, and replace it with the current model at the time, confident that the fault has long since been identified and rectified on the quiet, in Munich.

With that in mind - I wonder what the clairvoyants on the site foresee for the GS circa 2010?

 

[cusi]

Anecdotal evidence that the boxer has proved itself to be extremely reliable mechanically, over zillions of miles, only strengthens the likelihood that there is more to this RHS valve sh#tfight in 12s than merely random bad luck.

Eloquently put,

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Steptoe]

Since the cooler has no fan, running the engine while stationary for long periods of time must be a bad thing. ?

1200 Police bikes do have an oil cooler fan, which runs off a thermostat incorporated in the drain plug.

And i've also repaired quite a few 1150 models with dropped valves. Funnily enough all RT or RS versions, and not one GS.
And from memory i think they were all on the R/H side.

The old airheads have valve trouble, always recommended to change them around the 50-60K mile mark. The ends drop off where the valve head attaches to the stem. The join is right where the valve exits the guide
You could get a swiss made valve that had the join further up the body, so eliminating the design fault .

 

[littleredkelpie]

1200 Police bikes do have an oil cooler fan, which runs off a thermostat incorporated in the drain plug.

And i've also repaired quite a few 1150 models with dropped valves. Funnily enough all RT or RS versions, and not one GS.
And from memory i think they were all on the R/H side.

The old airheads have valve trouble, always recommended to change them around the 50-60K mile mark. The ends drop off where the valve head attaches to the stem. The join is right where the valve exits the guide
You could get a swiss made valve that had the join further up the body, so eliminating the design fault .

now that's more like it. cheers.

 

[Steptoe]

. Gravity would sort the left pot.

.

Do these mechanics dishing out this advice really understand how oil is fed to BMW heads or how the oil pump operates ?.
How would gravity sort out the L/H pot, it's not lower than the sump when a bike is on the side stand.

THE OIL IS PUMPED. Gravity fed oil to the heads stopped during WW1 No oil pressure and the chain tensioners wouldn't operate and the engines would rattle like you wouldn't believe

 

[Charlie]

Well, it looks like I am now in a position to join this conversation from experience.

Not being terribly mechanically savie myself I can't be sure but I think the same thing has just happened to my 55 plate (17,000 miles) 1200gs. Going along happily at 5000rpm then wallop! Power disappears and god aweful noises tell me something is seriously worng. Luckily was returning home and it happened not far down the road so walked back here and am now sitting waiting for RAC to recover and take to Bahnstormers. Have flagged it up with them so will be interested to hear what they have to say tomorrow.

Ironically, it was in with them a couple of weeks back because the switchgear broke. BMW supplied a new one on goodwill. Hope something similar can be done with this. Has anyone got any advice as to how I should handle this with BMW - I sure can't afford the kind of money you were talking about?

Don't get me wrong, I know nothings perfect but I dug deep into savings and bought BMW cos they had a reputation for reliability and longevity. I love this bike when it works but if, as your experiences suggest, BMW are going to treat people badly you have to ask yourselves why we are all so keen to hand over hard earned cash?

Come on BMW we have a right to expect you to produce something that is of merchandisable quality and that means 'fit for purpose'.

(For the record. When mine isn't being ridden it lives on its centre stand - even for short stops)

 

[littleredkelpie]

sorry to hear that. not fun.

Assuming your bike failed in a similar manner to the subject of this thread, and all else being equal, you can expect to go through several stages of discussion with your dealer: 1) horrendously high quote for repair and pathetic attempt to project empathy; 2) you politely point out that given the bikes youth and low mileage you don't believe it is reasonable for the engine to have self destructed and would like to talk to someone at BMW about it; 3) your dealer gets a small hint that you are not a complete idiot and suggests you leave it with him so that he can 'see what he can do'; 4) your dealer gets back to you a week later with an offer from BMW to cover half the cost of the parts; 5) you even more politely tell your dealer that whilst you appreciate the goodwill offer you believe given the bikes youth and low mileage coupled with the fact that you are aware of a number of other similar cases, that BMW needs to do a lot more for you. Ask for a contact number for BMW Customer Services. If your dealer tells you he is not supposed to give the number out, even more politely again, ask for the bloody phone number; 6) you continue to politely acknowledge successively better offers of assistance from BMW but each time ask to speak to the decision maker at BMW Customer Services - you will probably never speak to this Davros like character, but your goal is to clearly and politely make them understand that you will not go away, and that you insist on being treated like a valued customer; 8) Once they offer to cover the cost of all parts, leaving you to cover the cost of labour, you will know that you have reached the usual level of compromise. If you wish to dig in and go further, you can continue on as above, but may need to engage legal assistance. There is a post earlier in this thread that provides a phone number - this lovely fellow is happy to discuss with you his efforts to go all the way.

BMW are a bit confused insofar as when they say "No", they really mean "OK, but you won't get it that easy, you are going to have to convince me that you won't get tired of asking". And this is what you have to do - have your expectations clearly in your mind and don't stop asking until you get it. simple.

Then again, having said all that, the gods may smile on you and your dealer may do all this hard work without you even knowing about it. Let us know if he does, he deserves our business.

good luck.

 

[Tractorpilot]

A long bit of hopefully helpful advice

I didn't wait for my dealer to contact BMW and tell me the result (I knew the process having experienced it once already). The dealer, aware I understood the process was advised I was contacting BMW UK direct just to make BMW UK aware the owner was being active in pursuing a solution and the dealer exhibited no worry about that.

I got the number off the BMW web site and spoke to various of their customer support people who I have to say I found always courteous and co-operative and I even got calls back to advise me of the current state of the review process. Much better than most customer centres. I kept a record of all phone contacts, time, date, contact name brief summary so that during the next phone call I was always able to check if I had spoken to a person before and give them a brief summary from my log if required. I also kept the Service Department of my dealer informed of how I was getting on with BMW UK so there were no surprises for anyone. Pictures are also a good idea.

There is a process to follow with these things which involves the dealer and the technical people at BMW UK. First a report goes in that a bike has a problem. This is automatically assessed on age, warranty etc. and the dealer advised automatically of BMW UK response (I think). If the dealer then (and only then) enters a supplemental manual report explaining other factors relating to the case (servicing, known history of the bike, owner and any other relevant factors) then that is manually reviewed by the Technical team at BMW UK and a decision will be made on what goodwill offer might be considered to be appropriate.

All these things take time and the things you should do are keep up consistent contact with the dealer and BMW UK, probably on a weekly basis, expect matters to take a month for a decision to be finalised. If there is a goodwill offer, expect it to take another month for the parts to be ordered, delivered to UK, delivered to the dealer, assembled installed and tested.

Finally, I feel sure I got much further following this approach then I would have by any other route because nobody involved got any surprises and everyone understood what was going on and what the pressures were on everyone else. It is possible to get a satisfactory resolution in a case like this. It may be possible to do it another way but the way that worked for me was patience, persistance, tact and diplomacy.

While I am disappointed with problems that have occurred with the bike, I have not been disappointed with the performance of either the dealer or BMW UK.

[EDIT _ PS] I know that the Customer Support People were talking to the Technical people on my behalf to find out if they had reached a decision or at least started reviewing the case and I know the dealer was checking too. I think, if done politely, this is one of the major benefits of contacting customer support yourself. The technical people are receiving enquiries about a case from two directions and the 'priority to the loudest' effect may come in to play.

 

[Charlie]

Thanks guys. I'll prepare myself for the long haul. Shame really, as I'd planned to meet a mate up North and do the lovely roads of North Yorks.

As a footnote... met a guy from my village last week who was a 1200gs rider. He told me the hassle he had had with his first bike and was hoping his 2008 would be more reliable. Then, tonight down local pub, met someone else who reckons their husband had the same problem with their first 1200gs as I have encountered. Eventually got it fixed at considerable expense but flogged it asap.

Surely, with the number of 1200's sold to date we should have more consumer clout?

 

[littleredkelpie]

Thanks guys. I'll prepare myself for the long haul. Surely, with the number of 1200's sold to date we should have more consumer clout?

You will get a reasonable result. Mine was off the rode a total of 10 weeks. I think 6 - 8 weeks is about as good as you could expect - knowing what you know now.