2011 R1200GSA struggling to accelerate at high rpm problem!!

I'm not that familiar with the Fueling System on these but, on an old Honda I had there were a number of Rubber Vacuum Hoses that would Perish over time, thus allowing Air in where it shouldn't be.
Are there any such Hoses or Diaphragms etc which may have dried out / ruptured here?
 
Ypu need to run the same runs as before with the news sensors so we can compare the data logs ;)
 
botus said:
that all sounds bit odd.... might be worth checking the air filter is in OK, its such a small thing, could easily get restricted or soggy with all the rain

the throttles are cable operated, the cable is on the inner side of each of the throttle bodies, if you look from underneath you'll see them.... get someone to turn throttle and see if they are moving correctly.
Can't remember did you put any diagnostics on the bike?

the other thing that's been wrong on mine and has had far more effect that I thought it could possibly have is the adaptions... All modern stuff with sensors and computers self tune to work around the particular build tolerances your bike got as it was made, to cope with mildly wayward data / interesting info about how its running, the fuel used or wear and tear as it ages.

I didn't know the bike's worked this way with a power commander fitted but I gather they do and it certainly seem to be like this.... with a power commander on the bike and the lambda sensors disconnected (like you are supposed to) … the bike knows and stops adapting. It also mean if you ride at interesting altitudes / weather conditions it won't work around this like it was designed to.

Anyway the point I'm making, after my bike was flashed with a later BMW map it was terrible and remained like this for more than a year. I tried multiple tweaks to the power commander which helped in tiny ways but it was never the same bike. What seems to have been part of the issue... because the power commander was on all the time it never re learnt the adaptions to suit. It was gutless and didn't run right in the middle.

Recently it was reflashed again.... but this time they were doing more in-depth testing. So I fitted a zero map (power commander does nothing) and I'd refitted the lambda sensors and new coils.... The bike came back very different (worse than ever !!!) .... its was so bad I nearly returned it inside 7 miles.... but during that few miles the bike continually improved and after it was warmed up, the middle kept improving and the top end hit that was missing for 18 months started to come back.

Its funny what you get used to, with it in BMW spec it is clunky, nasty and hard to ride well in traffic. Making no power under 3k with almost no flexibility. If you want to make good progress in traffic its a liability, trying to stall, fall over and generally make you crash. I've been working around this OK ish and letting the bike get a few miles to adapt again. In places the later map helps a tiny fraction. But after a few months off the bike, I rode it again the other day. Coming to it fresh, with a clear mind, what a recalcitrant death trap a standard bike is. Thoroughly unpleasant and unsafe to use (unless you never need it below 3k rpm on a closed throttle).

The point being with the right tools you can wipe adaptions and let the vehicle rebuild them (if the system is functioning). Maybe your bike got remapped???
Click to expand...

Moonmanzn said:
!!!!update!!!!

2 X o2 SENSORS/LAMDAS made no difference to my issues.

Bike stood for a year and a bit in dry garage, would gummed injectors give this issue? I have run bmw injector cleaner and redex a few times?

Have a F800GS in the garage so will rob thats injectors and try them out and see if possibly I have a gummed injector and restricting flow at high rpm?
Click to expand...

I’m not familiar with this model of the bike but reading through the thread, Botus gives some useful info in his post quoted above.

With a decat system and a power commander system fitted, should you not fit O2 eliminators to keep thing open loop?


Also, if you fitted the power commander (or equivalent) yourself, did the 6000 rpm issue exist beforehand?

It’s usually true that if X happens ever since I did Y then Y is the thing to look at.

You are quite naturally getting deep down into technical detail but I often find it helps to “zoom out” and think about it more simply.
 
Santa, I'm going to run the bike with a laptop in pannier on way to work tmrw.

The fuelling module is a rapid bike evo and its requires connection to the O2 sensors so they cant be blocked.

I have bypassed the module and the problem is still there.

Could be the bike doesnt like the full decat exhaust system.

Injectors are varnished and not flowing enough fuel at high rpm roll ons.

Fuel Pump Controller could be intermittent

Knock sensors or Crank Sensor iffy.

Buuutttt nothing throws a code :(

1. I'm going to try some known good injectors today.
2. Swap my old battery back as changed battery when fitting everything.
3. Run a data log tmrw and then check again
4. Change knock sensors
5. Give up and set fire to it

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5. Give up and set fire to it

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Did you ever do the lower coils ?
 
GeorgeM said:
5. Give up and set fire to it

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Click to expand...

Did you ever do the lower coils ?[/QUOTE]No, I was told they dont impact performance over 3000rpm so wouldn't be in play at my problem RPM.

I also ran the bike only on lowers and it would drive up until 40mph so assuming they fine

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Moonmanzn said:
Did you ever do the lower coils ?
Click to expand...
No, I was told they dont impact performance over 3000rpm so wouldn't be in play at my problem RPM.

I also ran the bike only on lowers and it would drive up until 40mph so assuming they fine

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]Ok it seems you have ruled out fuel and electrical. A sticking valve?
 
GeorgeM said:
No, I was told they dont impact performance over 3000rpm so wouldn't be in play at my problem RPM.

I also ran the bike only on lowers and it would drive up until 40mph so assuming they fine

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Click to expand...
Ok it seems you have ruled out fuel and electrical. A sticking valve?[/QUOTE]I have rolled the bike though full rotations with open valve covers and seems to be fine?

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Moonmanzn said:
Ok it seems you have ruled out fuel and electrical. A sticking valve?
Click to expand...
I have rolled the bike though full rotations with open valve covers and seems to be fine?

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]That wouldn't simulate at high revs , a weak spring , carbon build up or even a slight bend could cause your symptoms.
 
GeorgeM said:
I have rolled the bike though full rotations with open valve covers and seems to be fine?

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Click to expand...
That wouldn't simulate at high revs , a weak spring , carbon build up or even a slight bend could cause your symptoms.[/QUOTE]

Only has 18k on it so hoping no carbon build up.

Will have to Google how to check this
 
Moonmanzn said:
That wouldn't simulate at high revs , a weak spring , carbon build up or even a slight bend could cause your symptoms.
Click to expand...

Only has 18k on it so hoping no carbon build up.

Will have to Google how to check this[/QUOTE]

Mmm, sorry I know these faults can be a pain ,doesn’t help a few hundred non experts trying to remote diagnose, trying to rule out basics without dismantling an engine , have you done a compression test ?


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this may or may not bring anything to the party....

I was informed that the EU mandate that manufactures must attempt to stop electronic reprogramming... and I think below indicates much the same....

the guys at PDQ were not fans of the early rapid bike kit... they had the engineers over for a week with their kit to prove how good it was.... every day it behaved differently and PQD said thanks but we won't sell it. They also didn't get on with this product sold under other names https://brentuningmoto.com/product/bmw-gs-all-air-and-watercooled-handheld-mail-in-watercooled/, nor that Woolwich racing could do a zzr1400 correctly

And if you install this https://www.evc.de/en/product/ols/software/ and look thorough the actual map files for BMWs its a mind boggling pile of garbage.... select 3d view and you find a 5 mile long graph with what looks like totally random moments of madness

so to me there seems to be lots of fun in the mix.

On later KTMs and all BMWs very few (none?) re map the real thing. Just look at racing circuit, its always an add on box of tricks even for the big boys racing S1000RR's why ?
Yet on a Triumphs you can play to your hearts content for 10 quid on your android phone using TuneECU
Hilltop just bodge up the adaptions
Power commanders just bodge in extra fuel (although they have new product just out but supporting very few bike at the minute)
Rapid bike evo claim to do it right.... but if they can do it, why doesn't everyone else ?
The Brentuning is just a renamed european box of play station fans down the road from PDQ in maidenhead, bodging some algorithms at the adaptions area that ought to make it better
These guys I think might have sussed it http://www.cjsracing.co.uk/ ...and the only ones using win OLS and suggesting they actually remap anything !!!

So what I think is happening (to make the EU happy) particularly with a ZZR1400 (but maybe on BMWs) is that there are multiple maps (all much the same, maybe splitting fuel and ignition and re combining random versions) and one day it picks one and another key turn / combination of ambient temps you get another.... But the remap boys haven't found how you find each element and thus can't optimise everything correctly. So many times the next day on a dyno run all work to tune it isn't right for today's randomly selected mix and match original mapping... So if this happened on a rapid bike evo it would need to rebuild all its settings, stop to fill up with petrol and it might be all wrong and you go round and round in circles getting nowhere…. which is what happened at PDQ and they said No

Which then brings us back to the start. If the master can't be fixed because too much fun is going in to the mix... and everyday is a new day, the best idea would be to lie to the bike what the CAT sensors are seeing, so it richens everything up a smidge which in most cases is all we need. And the manufacturer electronics, the maps and the adaptions need never know or get upset.

And there must be something in it as BMW worked it out and rewrote how to stop AF-XiED working on the LC bikes when you get the latest BMW software update! ... so AF-XiED has had to build a new product to work around the new fix BMW implements https://www.beemerboneyard.com/bmwafxiedlcram.html
 
botus said:
this may or may not bring anything to the party....

I was informed that the EU mandate that manufactures must attempt to stop electronic reprogramming... and I think below indicates much the same....

the guys at PDQ were not fans of the early rapid bike kit... they had the engineers over for a week with their kit to prove how good it was.... every day it behaved differently and PQD said thanks but we won't sell it. They also didn't get on with this product sold under other names https://brentuningmoto.com/product/bmw-gs-all-air-and-watercooled-handheld-mail-in-watercooled/, nor that Woolwich racing could do a zzr1400 correctly

And if you install this https://www.evc.de/en/product/ols/software/ and look thorough the actual map files for BMWs its a mind boggling pile of garbage.... select 3d view and you find a 5 mile long graph with what looks like totally random moments of madness

so to me there seems to be lots of fun in the mix.

On later KTMs and all BMWs very few (none?) re map the real thing. Just look at racing circuit, its always an add on box of tricks even for the big boys racing S1000RR's why ?
Yet on a Triumphs you can play to your hearts content for 10 quid on your android phone using TuneECU
Hilltop just bodge up the adaptions
Power commanders just bodge in extra fuel (although they have new product just out but supporting very few bike at the minute)
Rapid bike evo claim to do it right.... but if they can do it, why doesn't everyone else ?
The Brentuning is just a renamed european box of play station fans down the road from PDQ in maidenhead, bodging some algorithms at the adaptions area that ought to make it better
These guys I think might have sussed it http://www.cjsracing.co.uk/ ...and the only ones using win OLS and suggesting the actually remap anything !!!

So what I think is happening (to make the EU happy) particularly with a ZZR1400 (but maybe on BMWs) is that there are multiple maps (all much the same) and one day it picks one and another key turn / combination of ambient temps you get another.... But the remap boys haven't found how you find each one and thus can't optimise everything correctly. So many times the next day on a dyno run all work to tune it isn't right for today's randomly selected map.... So if this happened on a rapid bike evo it would need to rebuild all its settings, stop to fill up with petrol and it might be all wrong and you go round and round in circles getting nowhere…. which is what happened at PDQ and they said no

Which then brings us back to the start. If the master can't be fixed because too much fun is going in to the mix... and everyday is a new day, the best idea would be to lie to the bike what the CAT sensors are seeing, so it richens everything up a smidge which in most cases is all we needed. which is of course what these do https://www.beemerboneyard.com/bmwafo2sema.html
Click to expand...
Thanks for that Sir

But the box is bypassed at the moment and adaptations reset so bike is back to standard albeit the full system.

I have pulled an injector and found gunk in the port?

This might be something now

b644a47ae26c25200a73cf5710cf524b.jpg


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I can think of a scenario where you get the issue you have....

did you last big service happen at a main dealership? if they remap to work around AD-XiED and throw a fault (on LC bikes), maybe be they are rolling that out to earlier bikes too... And I can imaging the same issue then afflicts the Rapid bike Evo. Not sure how, but the bit in the link above, would need to lie to the BMW diagnostics somehow that the CAT sensors are doing what BMW expect, but then send the wrong data to the ECU so it runs richer.
 
just put esso 97 super unleaded in and go for a ride

ethanol breaks down the fuel and can cause a jelly mess to sludge things up... plus rust as it draws in water... and makes rubber and plastic complain. E5 !!! all over the petrol pumps evil stuff. injected bike far less of an issue ...the good mix of stuff in esso super unleaded will more likely clear it up in use than fighting... unless you want to fit new stuff everywhere
 
Moonmanzn said:
b644a47ae26c25200a73cf5710cf524b.jpg


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Click to expand...

that bit of gunk round where the O ring sits will be road filth from outside and a bit of oil mist and dust from the inside. The inside of the throttle bodies will be nasty with a black coating of rubbish its normal... Jelly clogging the pump strainer (if it has one) won't help
 
Yeah cleaned it out and fit new injectors and no joy...still no go after about 6k.

Fuel controller next

Bikes always run on BP super so it gets good fuel.

And had injector cleaner through it

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