3-Layer vs Direct Laminate Waterproof Gear?

Apologies Mark ..... I must have missed the bit were you said 'must be less than £200' :confused:

Nope, seems the bit you missed was where I asked about jacket construction, and not "what jacket do you recommend?" (plenty of those threads I imagine... ;)) I do appreciate all responses - the more opinions we heed, the wiser we can potentially become. I mean to cause no friction here. :beerjug:

Which, before I got side tracked and confused was what I did in my first post :thumb

Andres

PS I did also warn you..................... ;)

Indeed. :thumb

To the OP .... (weird user name that I can't remember .. !!) :)

The Klim lattitude jacket is just a shell, it's the bonded goretex stuff so water just beads off it and it can't soak in. I particularly like this jacket over the badlands, because I get to choose what I wear underneath. In the summer I may wear just a T-shirt (probably not ideal protection because the jacket is now quite loose fitting and I guess if i binned it there's a good chance that elbow, shoulder pads etc might not sit quite where they should). In the winter I can fit base layers, heated Keiss jackets etc underneath it. Spring / Autumn i can mix and match what I want.

Having tried both systems, for me my Klim beats the BM Rally jacket hands down for body heat control, not soaking up water and flexibility of what to wear underneath.

:thumb2

Inneresting. That fiasco with taking days for the outer shell layer of a three (separate) layer jacket to dry is just ridiculous. I'm pretty sure I'll prefer the bonded shell type jacket.

Pah - what sort of motorcyclist are you? Get it read.... :nono

By the way, it has very little to do with Zen and perhaps even less to do with motorcycling. :D

And it can be a tough read, but certainly worth it, IMO.

Phaedrus , welcome !
For a newbie , this is a great thread ,

Well I couldn't have done it without you guys. I'd like to thank my manager, my mammy...

Because most GS riders are fashion followers ..... !! (Tour x lid, BM suit, fog lights on, ally panniers with fire extinguisher .... etc etc :D )

Shite! Better get back to my Excel spreadsheet... :rolleyes:

The irony - time was when a GS rider was the opposite of a follower of fashion...

Is there an element of the emperor's new clothes with some of this? If everyone else likes it, it must be good and I'd better like it too?


Thanks for all the responses folks. :thumb2

I'm a newbie to the forum, but in the real world I'm 47 with a fair share of life under my belt, and enough experience with bikes & gear to know what I like and don't like.

Is Gore-Tex Pro the only name in town when it comes to bonded / laminated shell fabrics (that actually do what they're supposed to)? I have to say, my Rab eVent 3-layer (bonded / laminated) hiking gear is genuinely spectacular for even the heaviest of driving rain, and I never get sweaty to the point where I get damp inside, even when working hard on hills. The jacket's venting features, along with fit-for-purpose wicking layers obviously play a part here too. All advice I was getting at the time of purchase was to choose a Gore-Tex product. One shop bucked the trend, and I chose his recommendation (eVent), and I'm glad I did.

There are some bike clothing manufacturers out there that employ their own equivalent to Gore-Tex Pro shell fabric, whether proprietary or third-party. I'd be interested to learn how they perform. Not just from a price aspect, but cos I'm just like that - IMO, Gore-Tex = iPod: no doubt that it does perform, but there are alternatives.
 
After a number of jackets with removable waterproof liners I bought a bonded / laminated / whateveryacallit Rukka. Well worth the money - it doesn't 'wet out' cos the rain runs off it & it doesn't suck the heat outta me.

Mark, where in Dublin are you ? I'm in Rathfarnham every day & could bring both types up some day for you to have a look at.

You posted while I was constructing that Ulysses of a post above...

I'm in north county Dublin, rarely near the city. But I may take you up on that - it'd be good to have a hands-on impression of both types. You don't ride an 800 GS in the city centre any time by any chance?
 
....................

There are some bike clothing manufacturers out there that employ their own equivalent to Gore-Tex Pro shell fabric, whether proprietary or third-party. I'd be interested to learn how they perform. Not just from a price aspect, but cos I'm just like that - IMO, Gore-Tex = iPod: no doubt that it does perform, but there are alternatives.

In my experience Gortex is the only breathable membrane that has kept me dry and not do a 'boil in the bag' impression.

Now my theory as to why your walking gear works is that breathable membranes need a good temperature differential between the wearer and the outside for your sweat/water vapour to pass out and for water not to enter in from the outside. Walking you generate heat and a good membrane performs as well as Gortex. Sit still on a bike, not generating much heat and the membrane needs to be a good 'un to work - just my theory mind....................

Andres
 
I'm up Sat and/or Sun at the moment if that's any handier.

Nope, not me. Have a 12GSA but rarely commute because there's too many feckin muppets on the M/N7 & M50 in the mornings
 
Do you mind explaining what you mean by that please, ta?

OP - you have potentially started one of the longest threads we'll see on here in our life time as everybody has a view (and often opposing) so here goes mine. It's a view based on personal experience and on the fact I don't really feel the cold too badly but easily (and hate) getting hot.

Jacket with separate Gortex liner, like the WBM Rallye jacket.


Lots of venting and, with the separate waterproof liner removed, very cool and comfy in the summer. With the waterproof liner in it's waterproof, fairly warm and not sweaty but the outer jacket can get very water logged when in heavy rain. It's then still waterproof but you'll get cold easier and it's a bugger to dry.
For this reason I carry a cheap army Gortex over jacket that I wear over the top when in biblical conditions. This stops the jacket getting soaked through and also acts as a windbreak keeping you warmer. Layered up under the jacket and with the Gortex over jacket I use that throughout the winter and have ridden in horrific conditions like that keeping toasty warm.
A proper 4 season solution (for me).

Gortex trilaminate.


I've recently bought a Klim Badlands Pro. So far it's completely waterproof and very warm, even without layering up underneath it. However, despite being very well vented it is no where near as cool as my Rallye jacket without it's liner in which is hardly surprising as the Gortex layer in the laminate acts as a windbreak.
Also, due to the laminate construction the material is not as comfortable to wear, it's quite stiff. I'm hoping that once it's had it's first wash it'll soften up a bit but speaking to others they never quite loose that stiffness.

In all honesty I prefer the Rallye jacket because of its removable liner as it works the best for me in terms of it's compromise between comfort, warmth, coolness and waterproofness. The Klim jacket however, is better featured, looks better and I'd trust it far more in an 'off'.

It's all a compromise, there's no magic bullet, just what works for you.

Andres

That is my logic to. Far more flexible in varying conditions with the added bonus that if you do get really saturated it's a lot easier to dry out separate layers
 
BMW Streetguard doesn't get heavy when wet and keeps you dry. At least my Streetguard 1 does at 10 years old; I assume the latest Streetguard 4 incarnation does the same. I believe it is some form of laminated goretex.
 
Been looking around the www for more on this, and it seems there's debate in a few biking corners of the internet.

FWIW, these are my thoughts so far (and I neither imagine nor claim that they're exclusively my own thoughts, nor do I presume that anyone will give a shite)...

There seem to be two fundamentally different types of jacket construction, with the first split into two further types:

  1. Jackets with a separate / "floating" waterproof lining, apparently commonly referred to as a "Z-Liner" or "G-Liner", IIUC - maybe someone can confirm / clarify?
    • Non-removable.
    • Removable.
  2. Jackets with the waterproof layer bonded / laminated to the back / inside of the outer shell fabric.

1 (a). Jackets with a non-removable, separate / "floating" waterproof lining

This is the least logical, least versatile, most issue-prone option (IMO), and I'm personally dismissing such jackets from my research list.

PROS:
  • Usually the cheapest option.
CONS:
  • Allows for the outer shell layer to become saturated.
  • Allows for the potential issue of water ingress between outer shell and waterproof liner.
  • Lining can't be removed to allow better breathability / cooling in warm weather / climates.

1 (b). Jackets with a removable, separate / "floating" waterproof lining

I'd consider these useful in a system where you were employing a separate, independent waterproof shell layer for your rainy rides. This is a notion that occurred to me a while back - a DIY layering system, if you will:

  1. Layer 1: Some sort of armoured under-vest or under-jacket.
  2. Layer 2: Your choice of insulating garment as required.
  3. Layer 3: A cheapish jacket (remove any OE armour), with the waterproof lining fitted or removed as required.
  4. Layer 4: A waterproof shell for when the weather demands it.
PROS:
  • Versatile.
  • Probably still cheaper than the lotto-win jackets.
CONS:
  • Still allows for the outer shell layer (of the jacket) to become saturated, if caught out before you can put on your waterproof outer shell.
  • Still allows for the potential issue of water ingress between outer shell and waterproof liner (if fitted... :eek:), if caught out before you can put on your waterproof outer shell.
  • Probably more fiddly than would be ideal.

2. Jackets with the waterproof layer bonded / laminated to the back / inside of the outer shell fabric

This seems to be the most logical, most versatile option (IMO), and I've personally placed such jackets at the top of my research list, albeit with the caveat that most are more expensive than I'm willing / able to pay. I haven't checked, but I suspect that jackets of this type will have some sort of light mesh fixed lining and a removable thermal liner.

PROS:
  • Offers the best waterproofing performance.
  • Eliminates the need to remove-fit-remove a waterproof liner as weather / climate changes.
  • Eliminates the need for extra separate waterproof outer shell.
  • Reduces (but not eliminates) the level of saturation of the outer shell.
  • Eliminates the potential for water ingress between any inner linings or layers.
  • Typically (or at least often) come with many great features other than the waterproofing - full armour compliment as standard, or particularly tough fabrics in impact zones, for example.
CONS:
  • Most are ridiculously expensive, some even more expensive than some lad's bikes or cars, I imagine...
  • Potential issue with venting / overheating in warmer weather / climates?
  • "Watch me bleedin jackeh, fuksakeman, will ye!" factor?
 
Pretty much sums it up. They are all a compromise, depending on where and when you ride will depend on what compromises you willing to make. If I rode mostly in Ireland I'd be going for a bonded layer and sod the expense:D For 3 season touring in Europe I prefer to be able to remove the waterproofing as it is more comfortable. And yes, once the water resistant repellent has worn off the Z liner type they are pretty pants allowing you to get cold in the rain and too hot when it's warm
 
Keep a very close eye on the "for sale" section here, there are fantastic bargains to be had. I bought a set of Halvarssons trousers off a lad that had bought them and after trying them on, pretty much never wore them, I then hunted down the matching jacket on the interweb and because it was discontinued and I'm a large size (euro 60) I got it for less than half it's RRP.
I ended up getting a suit that would have cost around €1500 in Ireland for less than €700.

If you are patient, you can get very good gear for a fraction of it's RRP.
 
BMW Streetguard doesn't get heavy when wet and keeps you dry. At least my Streetguard 1 does at 10 years old; I assume the latest Streetguard 4 incarnation does the same. I believe it is some form of laminated goretex.

Its a great jacket , but too heavy for summer use.(imho)
I'd also recommend the BMW Tourshell. Just a fantastic 3 layer fabric( in line with the threads recommendation's) the advantage over the Klim and Rukka stuff is that it has four massive vents and can be worn in 35C heat .( successfully tested by me for 2 weeks in Chang Mai)
 

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Jesus....... poor Chang Mai, I hope you didn't hurt her!

Sent using a Jedi mind trick!
 
BMW Streetguard doesn't get heavy when wet and keeps you dry. At least my Streetguard 1 does at 10 years old; I assume the latest Streetguard 4 incarnation does the same. I believe it is some form of laminated goretex.

I also wear an Original Streetguard suit, bought cheap via eBay which I've had for a long time now. It is comfy, warm and always bone dry. It's made of triple-layer bonded Armacor. The only negative is a lack of enough pockets.

If it's a roasting hot day, I wear my old Savanna 2 jacket with vents open and no liner. (As the coldest, most leaky removable-lined piece of junk, it's perfect for summer.)

The trick with any waterproof kit is to wash it regularly (using a suitable product) to keep the pores clean, and preferably re-activate the waterproof membrane by tumble drying.
 
It's all a compromise. Buy a bonded suit and get the advantage of the absorbed water not turning the suit into a thing that weighs a ton. Or work out that, whilst it really doesn't rain that often, you'd rather be able to discard as many layers as possible and by buying an unbonded suit you'll be able to do just that.

Me? I gave up trying to work out which was best at any given minute and bought three or four different suits in the sales or secondhand, which match what I expect to be doing for the day (on a single day out in England) and / or for a week or two away in Europe.

If I realistically expect it to be very hot for a protracted period, I take a fully ventilated mesh suit, which is about as waterproof as a box of Kleenex; which I back-up with some light chuck over waterproofs and a fleece. If I think it's going to piss down and / or be bloody freezing, I wear another more suitable fully waterproof suit with (if I think it necessary) a heated liner. Self-reliance (and a bit of imagination with the weather forecast) pays off in the end.... As Pukmeister (and the more astute of the others) said.
 
Do remember that, the dirtier bonded jackets become the more water they will hold as the water soaks into the muck. They still need to be washed regularly to maintain their optimum performance.

I have a Rukka Cosmic...great Jacket.
 
The trick with any waterproof kit is to wash it regularly (using a suitable product) to keep the pores clean, and preferably re-activate the waterproof membrane by tumble drying.

Do remember that, the dirtier bonded jackets become the more water they will hold as the water soaks into the muck. They still need to be washed regularly to maintain their optimum performance.

All true. And there are some good products out there for washing stuff with Gore-tex layers/liners.

I guess a few different suits would be the absolute optimal versatile solution, and that would probably be most lad's aspiration.
 
After deciding that I'll almost certainly be aiming for a DL-type jacket, I had a gawp around some of the bigger sites to try to find as many as I could. I've probably missed some, and some of those I've found mightn't be worth shite, but this list may be of use to someone out there.

I think I've listed them in descending price order...


*EDITED to reflect today's exchange rate of approx 1.31, and my conversions below are rounded / approximated.


Rukka Premium (Gore-Tex Pro Shell, £917 (€1,200)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Rukka-Premium-Gore-Tex

Rukka Armas (Gore-Tex Pro Shell, £917 (€1,200)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Rukka-Armas-GORE-TEX-Jacket

Klim Adventure Rally (Gore-Tex Pro Shell, £916 (€1,200)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Klim-Adventure-Rally-Jacket

Rukka Armaxis (Gore-Tex Pro Shell, £840 (€1,100)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Rukka-Armaxis-Gore-Tex-Jacket

Klim Badlands (Gore-Tex Pro Shell, £764 (€1,000)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Klim-Badlands-Jacket

Rukka Energator (Gore-Tex Pro Shell, £764 (€1,000)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Rukka-Energater-Textile-Jacket

Rukka RAndroid (RVP/Cordura DL, £764 (€1,070)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Rukka-RAndroid-2in1-Jacket

Richa Touring (C-Change DL, £725 (€955)) - http://www.sportsbikeshop.co.uk/motorcycle_parts/content_prod/210056

Dainesee Stradon (Gore-Tex Pro Shell, £684 (€900)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Dainese-Stradon-D1-Gore-Tex-Jacket

Klim Apex (Gore-Tex Pro Shell, £649 (€855)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Klim-Apex-Jacket

Rukka Armaxion (Gore-Tex Pro Shell, £649 (€855)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Rukka-Armaxion-Gore-Tex-Jacket

Ixs Clermont (Gore-Tex Pro Shell, £611 (€805)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/IXS-Clermont-Textile-Jacket

Rukka Cosmic (Gore-Tex Pro Shell, £611 (€805)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Rukka-Cosmic-Gore-Tex-Jacket

Moose Racing ADV1 (Sympatex/Nylon DL, £527 (€695)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Moose-Racing-ADV1-Jacket

Held Cadora (Gore-Tex Pro Shell, £459 (€605)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Held-Cadora

Rev'It Poseidon (Gore-Tex Pro Shell, £447 (€590)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Revit-Poseidon-GTX-Jacket

Macna Switch (RaintexDL, £440 (€580)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Macna-Switch-Jacket

Halvarssons Amazonas (Dryway+ DL, £440 (€580)) - http://www.hideout-leather.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1417

Klim Badlands Pro (Gore-Tex Pro Shell, £382 (€505)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Klim-Badlands-Pro-Jacket

Alpinestars Tech Road (Gore-Tex Pro Shell, £382 (€505)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Alpinestars-Tech-Road-Gore-Tex-Armacor-Jacket

Macna Cobalt (RaintexDL, £372 (€490)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Macna-Cobalt-Textile-Jacket

Spidi X-Tour (H2Out DL, £310 (€408)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Spidi-X-Tour-H2OUT-Jacket

Spidi Venture (H2Out DL, £310 (€408)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Spidi-Venture-waterproof-Textile-Jacket

Moose Racing Expedition (Nylon DL, £307 (€405)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Moose-Racing-Expedition-Jacket

Macna Impact (RaintexDL, £220 (€290)) - http://www.fc-moto.de/Macna-Impact-Textile-Jacket


Mark
 


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