4th Dimension - no escape

[er-minio]

Seems a good way for a company to get a supply of decent repairable bikes/cars on the cheap.

I get that, but honestly don't understand the mechanics (and legality) of it.
Thankfully I had zero dealings with insurance in the UK (apart from setting it up). Had a massive crash back in the day in Italy where my R1150R got totalled, I do still have the bike (half of it to be fair) and it is registered. I got paid out at the time, the insurance paid the bike in full at marked value and couldn't care less about the bike registration itself. The wreck was mine to keep and do as I please.

I do understand and appreciate the plate system in the UK where it's clear if you get a previously written off vehicle.
But I do not understand how an insurer, or worse, the claim management company takes the liberty to write off a vehicle without asking or getting written approval from the owner first.

Only experience I had has been with my GS over the years, following a couple of mishaps (one big-ish, one very minor), both times a dealer told me to call the insurance and have it written off. Both times I put my time (and money) in and got the bike fixed. Damage was my own fault, I sorted it.

I can imagine if a claims company was involved and they forcefully wrote off the very bike I am traveling with at the moment, I'd be severely pissed off. The bike is my property, you ask me first. Especially with the habits we see of vehicles being written off for menial issues, minor/cosmetic damage.

Apart from that, I second Wapping's opinion in the post above.
There have been a few articles in newspaper in the last year regarding the cost and practices of motor insurance, time might be right for a follow up.

 

[Engineer]

After 18 years living in the UK, I still honestly don't understand how this is allowed, since it's your property.
Surely you should agree to it before it happens?

It is your property, you can have it repaired by anyone you wish and you do not have to accept a loan vehicle. Yes you can make all the decisions.

When I had a 'incident' with my bike, I took it to the nearest authorised dealer. I then phoned the insurance company, Hastings Direct - they passed me onto 4th Dimension. 4D tried to persuade me to use their repairers but I said no, I want to use an authorised BMW dealer - they can have no good reason to refuse that. I turned down the offer of a loan bike. I passed the repair quote to 4D. The only reason the repair took months was because the authorised dealer was utterly incompetent, so I told 4D not to pay them and I took the bike to another BMW authorised dealer, then all was fine. Had to make a lot pf phone calls but otherwise there were no arguments at all.

The only caveat to all of this, is everyone's duty to minimise the costs so the insurer could refuse to pay out if the quote from your repairer is unreasonable and excessive.

 

[tspivey]

It is your property, you can have it repaired by anyone you wish and you do not have to accept a loan vehicle. Yes you can make all the decisions.

When I had a 'incident' with my bike, I took it to the nearest authorised dealer. I then phoned the insurance company, Hastings Direct - they passed me onto 4th Dimension. 4D tried to persuade me to use their repairers but I said no, I want to use an authorised BMW dealer - they can have no good reason to refuse that. I turned down the offer of a loan bike. I passed the repair quote to 4D. The only reason the repair took months was because the authorised dealer was utterly incompetent, so I told 4D not to pay them and I took the bike to another BMW authorised dealer, then all was fine. Had to make a lot pf phone calls but otherwise there were no arguments at all.

The only caveat to all of this, is everyone's duty to minimise the costs so the insurer could refuse to pay out if the quote from your repairer is unreasonable and excessive.

Don’t know when your experience was with 4th D, I was told very clearly on several occasions by Hastings that I could only speak to 4th D about my claim, not them, as they only do cars and vans.
Then 4th D said very clearly that they could only represent me if I accepted one or both of their services, Credit Storage/Repair and/or Vehicle Hire.
My bike was at the BMW dealer, assessed and quoted for ready, no charge for storage. I requested over and over to have it repaired there but Hastings wouldn’t talk about it and 4th D repeated what they said above.
They (4th D) wouldn’t and didn’t even put the claim to the 3rd party insurer until they had my signature on the Credit Storage agreement.
Admiral (3rd party) immediately, same day, accepted 100% liability and contacted me, offering me a hire bike equivalent to mine that they said would cost £46 ish a day, not the £388 of 4thD. Plus, full repair costs at the repairer of my choice.
I read the full 4th D agreement and saw the 14 day cooling off cancellation section and told them by phone I was cancelling the agreement which they didn’t like.
The agreement said it must be done in writing so I emailed them from the email they knew about and their system rejected it. I sent it again from my other email they didn’t know about and it went straight through, which raised my suspicions.
I got nowhere repeatedly asking for my bike to be repaired by BMW until Admiral took it over.

 

[Paul G (BHT)]

I'm surprised no one hasn't mentioned Copart in this thread.
Many of the vehicles 4th dimension are involved with end up in the hands of Copart.
Copart are another company involved in this immoral, filthy shit show known as insurance claims handling.

 

[Engineer]

Don’t know when your experience was with 4th D, I was told very clearly on several occasions by Hastings that I could only speak to 4th D about my claim, not them, as they only do cars and vans.
Then 4th D said very clearly that they could only represent me if I accepted one or both of their services, Credit Storage/Repair and/or Vehicle Hire.
My bike was at the BMW dealer, assessed and quoted for ready, no charge for storage. I requested over and over to have it repaired there but Hastings wouldn’t talk about it and 4th D repeated what they said above.
They (4th D) wouldn’t and didn’t even put the claim to the 3rd party insurer until they had my signature on the Credit Storage agreement.
Admiral (3rd party) immediately, same day, accepted 100% liability and contacted me, offering me a hire bike equivalent to mine that they said would cost £46 ish a day, not the £388 of 4thD.
I read the full 4th D agreement and saw the 14 day cooling off cancellation section and told them by phone I was cancelling the agreement which they didn’t like.
The agreement said it must be done in writing so I emailed them from the email they knew about and their system rejected it. I sent it again from my other email they didn’t know about and it went straight through, which raised my suspicions.
I got nowhere repeatedly asking for my bike to be repaired by BMW until Admiral took it over.

In your case 4D would only make any money if they could charge the 3rd party insurer for something, those something could only be storage, repairs and loan vehicle. - which is why they tried to persuade you to accept their service - which you never have to.

Admiral accepted 100% liability and wanted to mimise costs so wanted you to ignore 4D, because they knew 4D would try to make as much money as possible.

In say a 50/50 case it could get messy as each side wrangles over costs.

In my case it was down to me and I had fully comp insurance with Hastings - 4D dealt with the other party's insurer and my repairer. Of course they also wanted to make even more money from my insurer, Hastings, by selling me services that I didn't need, loan bike, repairs, storage etc. I refused, so I guess Hastings were happy about that and my premiums hardly increased even though it was my error. So I guess all 4D got out of it was a fee from Hastings for handling the claim from the other party.

My experience was about 18 months ago I think - I'd have to check the exact date.

The whole process I suspect is deliberately obfuscated to bamboozle the 'customers' so the claims companies can maximise their income.

 

[tspivey]

In your case 4D would only make any money if they could charge the 3rd party insurer for something, those something could only be storage, repairs and loan vehicle. - which is why they tried to persuade you to accept their service - which you never have to.

Admiral accepted 100% liability and wanted to mimise costs so wanted you to ignore 4D, because they knew 4D would try to make as much money as possible.

In say a 50/50 case it could get messy as each side wrangles over costs.

In my case it was down to me and I had fully comp insurance with Hastings - 4D dealt with the other party's insurer and my repairer. Of course they also wanted to make even more money from my insurer, Hastings, by selling me services that I didn't need, loan bike, repairs, storage etc. I refused, so I guess Hastings were happy about that and my premiums hardly increased even though it was my error. So I guess all 4D got out of it was a fee from Hastings for handling the claim from the other party.

My experience was about 18 months ago I think - I'd have to check the exact date.

The whole process I suspect is deliberately obfuscated to bamboozle the 'customers' so the claims companies can maximise their income.

Doesn’t make sense to me though that I have a fully comp policy with Hastings costing £550+ and they wouldn’t even put my claim to the 3rd party insurer, wouldn’t represent me in any way, just passing me constantly to 4th D. If I’d had a car or van insured with them, then yes they would. Unlike you 4th D refused to represent me at all to the 3rd party unless I accepted one of their services.
Mine is no fault by me claim so Hastings were out of it regarding having to cough up. All I wanted was someone to put the claim to Admiral and both Hastings and 4th D refused. I now realise I could have done it without Hastings or 4th D as it’s getting sorted satisfactorily now by Admiral and I still have legal cover if they mess me about.

 

[DJ123]

This is from the policy book of my Bikesure insurance.

Where it states i can call 4D to to recover it to them, or to an alternative repairer. So i do have the choice of using 4D to collect/store/repair my Bike, or i can select a different insurance approved repairer to take my Bike to.

If you ask for your vehicle to be repaired, the damage must:


- be covered by the policy; and


- have been inspected by an approved assessor.

If you have an accident, you must take all possible steps to protect your vehicle and its accessories and contents. If the damage to your vehicle is covered by this insurance, you must call 4th Dimension, who will recover your vehicle or arrange for it to be taken to the nearest repairer. The insurer will accept any reasonable costs as part of your claim. The insurer will not pay for any further damage you cause if you try to use your vehicle. Repairs will first be handled by 4th Dimension or another repairer approved by the insurer. If your vehicle is repaired by a repairer other than 4th Dimension, when your vehicle is with that repairer you must get an estimate for the cost of the repairs and send it to the insurer immediately. One of the insurer’s approved assessors must inspect your vehicle before any repairs are started. The insurer will not be responsible for the cost of any new parts or accessories ordered, or repairs carried out, without their agreement. If the insurer thinks the estimate for the cost of repairs is unreasonable, they may negotiate a lower estimate, pay for any emergency work that has been carried out so the vehicle could be used, or move your vehicle to another repairer. The insurer has the right to move your vehicle to a safe storage place without asking you. If the insurer chooses, they may arrange for the repairer to use suitable parts and accessories that are made by a company other than the manufacturer of your vehicle.

 

[tjmouse]

This is from the policy book of my Bikesure insurance.

Where it states i can call 4D to to recover it to them, or to an alternative repairer. So i do have the choice of using 4D to collect/store/repair my Bike, or i can select a different insurance approved repairer to take my Bike to.

If you ask for your vehicle to be repaired, the damage must:


- be covered by the policy; and


- have been inspected by an approved assessor.

If you have an accident, you must take all possible steps to protect your vehicle and its accessories and contents. If the damage to your vehicle is covered by this insurance, you must call 4th Dimension, who will recover your vehicle or arrange for it to be taken to the nearest repairer. The insurer will accept any reasonable costs as part of your claim. The insurer will not pay for any further damage you cause if you try to use your vehicle. Repairs will first be handled by 4th Dimension or another repairer approved by the insurer. If your vehicle is repaired by a repairer other than 4th Dimension, when your vehicle is with that repairer you must get an estimate for the cost of the repairs and send it to the insurer immediately. One of the insurer’s approved assessors must inspect your vehicle before any repairs are started. The insurer will not be responsible for the cost of any new parts or accessories ordered, or repairs carried out, without their agreement. If the insurer thinks the estimate for the cost of repairs is unreasonable, they may negotiate a lower estimate, pay for any emergency work that has been carried out so the vehicle could be used, or move your vehicle to another repairer. The insurer has the right to move your vehicle to a safe storage place without asking you. If the insurer chooses, they may arrange for the repairer to use suitable parts and accessories that are made by a company other than the manufacturer of your vehicle.

Good to know. I’m with Bikesure now so would definitely get my bike recovered to BMW Cheltenham rather than 4th Dimension

 

[tspivey]

This is from the policy book of my Bikesure insurance.

Where it states i can call 4D to to recover it to them, or to an alternative repairer. So i do have the choice of using 4D to collect/store/repair my Bike, or i can select a different insurance approved repairer to take my Bike to.

If you ask for your vehicle to be repaired, the damage must:


- be covered by the policy; and


- have been inspected by an approved assessor.

If you have an accident, you must take all possible steps to protect your vehicle and its accessories and contents. If the damage to your vehicle is covered by this insurance, you must call 4th Dimension, who will recover your vehicle or arrange for it to be taken to the nearest repairer. The insurer will accept any reasonable costs as part of your claim. The insurer will not pay for any further damage you cause if you try to use your vehicle. Repairs will first be handled by 4th Dimension or another repairer approved by the insurer. If your vehicle is repaired by a repairer other than 4th Dimension, when your vehicle is with that repairer you must get an estimate for the cost of the repairs and send it to the insurer immediately. One of the insurer’s approved assessors must inspect your vehicle before any repairs are started. The insurer will not be responsible for the cost of any new parts or accessories ordered, or repairs carried out, without their agreement. If the insurer thinks the estimate for the cost of repairs is unreasonable, they may negotiate a lower estimate, pay for any emergency work that has been carried out so the vehicle could be used, or move your vehicle to another repairer. The insurer has the right to move your vehicle to a safe storage place without asking you. If the insurer chooses, they may arrange for the repairer to use suitable parts and accessories that are made by a company other than the manufacturer of your vehicle.

I must have read that differently because it doesn’t sound good to me.

If the insurer chooses, they may arrange for the repairer to use suitable parts and accessories that are made by a company other than the manufacturer of your vehicle.

Repairs will first be handled by 4th Dimension or another repairer approved by the insurer. Doesn’t say anything about you having a choice.

If the damage to your vehicle is covered by this insurance, you must call 4th Dimension, who will recover your vehicle or arrange for it to be taken to the nearest repairer. ie Them!

If the insurer thinks the estimate for the cost of repairs is unreasonable, they may negotiate a lower estimate

 

[Engineer]

Doesn’t make sense to me though that I have a fully comp policy with Hastings costing £550+ and they wouldn’t even put my claim to the 3rd party insurer, wouldn’t represent me in any way, just passing me constantly to 4th D. If I’d had a car or van insured with them, then yes they would. Unlike you 4th D refused to represent me at all to the 3rd party unless I accepted one of their services.
Mine is no fault by me claim so Hastings were out of it regarding having to cough up. All I wanted was someone to put the claim to Admiral and both Hastings and 4th D refused. I now realise I could have done it without Hastings or 4th D as it’s getting sorted satisfactorily now by Admiral and I still have legal cover if they mess me about.

I wonder what have hppened if Admiral hadn't admitted 100% liability?

 

[Neil W]

I must have read that differently because it doesn’t sound good to me.

If the insurer chooses, they may arrange for the repairer to use suitable parts and accessories that are made by a company other than the manufacturer of your vehicle.

Repairs will first be handled by 4th Dimension or another repairer approved by the insurer. Doesn’t say anything about you having a choice.

If the damage to your vehicle is covered by this insurance, you must call 4th Dimension, who will recover your vehicle or arrange for it to be taken to the nearest repairer. ie Them!

If the insurer thinks the estimate for the cost of repairs is unreasonable, they may negotiate a lower estimate

In my mates case he lives 12 miles away from a main Yamaha dealer in Bedlington , Northumberland but his FJR ( in rideable condition ) was recovered from his home address to 4th Dimension in Surrey ?

It is approximately 320 miles each way , the recovery and delivery fees alone would be approaching the costs of repairs by the Yamaha dealer .

 

[DJ123]

I must have read that differently because it doesn’t sound good to me.

If the insurer chooses, they may arrange for the repairer to use suitable parts and accessories that are made by a company other than the manufacturer of your vehicle. - For me, It depends on what that is as to whether OEM or not would be an issue.

Repairs will first be handled by 4th Dimension or another repairer approved by the insurer. Doesn’t say anything about you having a choice. Same as the choice of where it gets taken - either 4D or another approved repair house. It's not mandatory 4D must take it

If the damage to your vehicle is covered by this insurance, you must call 4th Dimension, who will recover your vehicle or arrange for it to be taken to the nearest repairer. ie Them! - again - not mandatory to go to them, they can take it to 4D or to another approved repairer (or i am assuming you could also transport it there - if you have the means)

If the insurer thinks the estimate for the cost of repairs is unreasonable, they may negotiate a lower estimate - every insurance company does the same.

 

[DJ123]

In my mates case he lives 12 miles away from a main Yamaha dealer in Bedlington , Northumberland but his FJR ( in rideable condition ) was recovered from his home address to 4th Dimension in Surrey ?

It is approximately 320 miles each way , the recovery and delivery fees alone would be approaching the costs of repairs by the Yamaha dealer .

He most likely would have been able to get it taken to a closer insurance repaired shop, if requested to the insurance.

 

[tspivey]

Hastings and Bikesure definitely on my ‘don’t go anywhere near’ list now when renewal time arrives.
I’m looking at Atlanta group companies now, like BMW Motorrad, Swinton and Carole Nash, though I’ll keep checking as no company makes it obvious on their website if they use a Credit Storage/Repair/Vehicle Hire claims handler.

 

[Engineer]

Hastings and Bikesure definitely on my ‘don’t go anywhere near’ list now when renewal time arrives.
I’m looking at Atlanta group companies now, like BMW Motorrad, Swinton and Carole Nash, though I’ll keep checking as no company makes it obvious on their website if they use a Credit Storage/Repair/Vehicle Hire claims handler.

I understand that, but based on my experience I would choose Hastings again. as long as they don't hike their prices next year.

All insurance 'companies' these day are only insurance brokers, I suspect that they all use 3rd party claims companies with similar policies to 4D.

 

[tspivey]

All insurance 'companies' these day are only insurance brokers, I suspect that they all use 3rd party claims companies with similar policies to 4D.

Apparently not from what I’m finding out, Hastings for example handle car and van claims ’in house’ it’s just bikes they farm out.
I will do what I can to avoid any company that uses a Credit Storage /Repair/Vehicle Hire claims handling company like 4th D. I’m sick of ever increasing premiums and putting ridiculous amounts of money into their businesses isn’t something I want to contribute to.
I knew none of this until I needed to claim and just based my choice on price, I’ll now willingly pay a little extra.

 

[Neil W]

He most likely would have been able to get it taken to a closer insurance repaired shop, if requested to the insurance.

Bullied into using 4th Dimension with veiled threats of extensive delays in having his bike inspected and repaired due to his geographical location , other mate had exactly the same sh*t off 4 th Dimension when his V Strom was damaged and went to them for repair .
As for delays, every job I have ever heard of involving 4thDimension ( I know 3 people who have had dealings with them) seem to mean a minimum of 10 to 12 weeks to do even simple repairs and massive storage fees and loan bike fees . Constant lies about progress of the repairs and availablity of parts . In the case of the V Strom and the FJR parts were allegedly not available in Europe. Local Yamaha dealer said they were in UK (rear mudguard) and available within 24 hours and in the case of the V Strom I could have had the bits next day from either Fowlers or the local dealer . When spoken to 4th Dimension came up with an absolute load of lies and in the end used secondhand bits on the V Strom which were badly powder coated (grit left in threads ) in the wrong colour and the paintwork was done with incorrect graphics (so they were not matched on each side )

 

[tspivey]

As said previously I’ve rescued my bike from 4th D by cancelling the agreement within the 14 day cooling off period and had it returned to the BMW dealer, thanks to Admiral. (the 3rd party’s insurer)
It now needs a new screen because 4th Dimension wrote CANCELLED across the screen in what looks like a paint pen. BMW are saying just writing it will have caused scratches but they are at a loss as to how to remove it without causing further damage, they also wrote it on the number plate.
Admiral are looking into it but it’s not their fault it’s damage caused by my insurance company after the accident.

 

[tjmouse]

As said previously I’ve rescued my bike from 4th D by cancelling the agreement within the 14 day cooling off period and had it returned to the BMW dealer, thanks to Admiral. (the 3rd party’s insurer)
It now needs a new screen because 4th Dimension wrote CANCELLED across the screen in what looks like a paint pen. BMW are saying just writing it will have caused scratches but they are at a loss as to how to remove it without causing further damage, they also wrote it on the number plate.
Admiral are looking into it but it’s not their fault it’s damage caused by my insurance company after the accident.

Log a complaint about it with 4th dimension and give them resolution costs (screen and number plate) then when they don’t deal with it tell them you’re going to the ombudsman which will cost the £250 straight up. They’ll just pay you directly to close the complaint.

 

[Mr Bean]

Big numbers in their accounts for a motorcycle repair company - £70m turnover, highest paid director £700k.