A belated reply to Scotboxer...

[gerarddwatts]

SB..I have taken your question from the other thread...

"Speaking of the Blackwater Hall,Gerry, I noticed a photo on the wall which showed the teacher and pupils of Blackwater school in 1956. There were 17 pupils, a teacher and another adult who may have been employed as a caretaker, cook etc. I'd be interested to know how many families with children lived in the area at the time and what they did? It would be interesting to find out where those kids are now also. My bet is that few of them (who are alive) will live in the area and not a few will live furth of Scotland. I'd be really interested to know how many children of school age (5 - 12) live in the area NOW and what their families do.

I suspect the answers to those questions might just put a large dent in your argument that the only people whose opinions matter re land use in Scotland are the people who own and benefit from its use today. That's the kind of thinking which led to the de-population of rural Scotland in the first place.

I'm not a nationalist and I still have several months before I put my cross on the ballot paper but I'm a great believer that if we keep on doing what we've always done, we'll keep on getting what we've always got."

I can't be bothered replying on the other thread, which has become a Turdy talking to Turdy exercise.

Almost all of the families in the photo will have been employed in agriculture. Significantly less so today; modern machinery and farming practices have seen to that. The school here has shut as have many others. The rural population in the 50's 60's 70's 80's etc left because they wanted to. I don't think I said anything about the 'only opinions that matter'....what I do say is that the vast resources flowing into Scotland from land owners are nearly ALL that is keeping what fragile remnants of a rural population there are here at all. Most of the Land Reforms proposed by the SNP are almost calculated to drive such investment elsewhere.....and it won't be replaced by government spending...further driving the rural population down. Thats how Mugabe wrecked the economy of Zimbabwe.

The average 16 year old voter in Alloa or Kirkcaldy doesn't give a toss.....but they may be the ones deciding...

 

[Posh Pete]

Edit: see post below!

 

[Posh Pete]

Thanks for the reply Gerry. My point is that rural de-population has been taking place since the 18th century. As you say, changes in agricultural production (plus, in the 20th century, social change brought about by two world wars) have been responsible. The photo I referred to was taken towards the end of that process: as late as the mid 50s there was a significant population in the area. Again, as you confirm, that community has all but disappeared and I assume there are only a few jobs in the area linked to the estates?

My point is that unless something different is done then that process is only going to continue and population in these area (and opportunities for jobs) will continue to be limited.

Not quite sure what the link is between Scotland and Zimbabwe. Are you comparing the current landowners with the white elite who used to own the land in Southern Rhodesia / Zimbabwe? Or are you suggesting that attempts by the state to interfere in rural matters will always end in disaster? If that's the case, then you're ignoring the tax breaks given to shooting estates and the investment in agriculture and the countryside generally in the form of subsidies, the Forestry Commission, the various Hydro schemes etc. Without state intervention, the rural population in Scotland would be even lower surely?

I don't have a problem with sporting estates in principle. I am not anti blood sports or anti land owner. Whether or not we become independent in September, I think we need to create a much more mixed economy in the countryside and especially the highlands if we are to reverse population decline. That will mean doing some things which clash with the land owners' interests. If that means less gamies and ghillies in work and more tourist guides, mountain bike guides and repair techs, internet related jobs and specialist workshops etc etc then so be it. The land owners should not have a veto over that any more than lamp lighters had a veto over electric street lights being introduced.

As you say, these matters will be decided by people who may not actually live in the Highlands or give a toss about what happens there but the politicians they elect will decide and will be accountable. That's democracy for you.

 

[gerarddwatts]

Peter....yes you are right....and wrong!

My comparison to Zimbabwe relates to the SNP Land Reform Policy....

'While others were silent, the SNP stood up for the rights of the dispossessed and the powerless against the unfairness of Scotland’s medieval land laws. We have campaigned on this long and hard. We will deliver a radical reform programme which will address ownership, land use and the rural housing crisis.'

My fear is that they will drive away the real investment in rural Scotland...for example the several million pounds being spent at Invercauld Estate by the Swiss tenant...he employs directly 8 keepers where there were 2, and indirectly dozens of local tradespeople. Will the Scottish Govt replace these jobs if he is driven away by their policy of public land ownership? No. Although I can see that many will say, wrongly, 'fuck him we can manage without his money'. This is one among many such estates, including the one that keeps me and my family living and working in the countryside. The much vaunted schemes of local land ownership for example on Eigg, Gigha, and Assynt were only possible through vast sums of public (mine and yours) money. The alternative to lavishing these communities with my and your money, a very finite resource, is to seize the land...Mugabe? Why should geezers on Eigg and Gigha get land at my expense? Wheres mine? There is no such thing as public money....it comes from us.

'Not quite sure what the link is between Scotland and Zimbabwe. Are you comparing the current landowners with the white elite who used to own the land in Southern Rhodesia / Zimbabwe?' Silly and not worthy of you.

What are the tax breaks given to shooting estates? Explain.

The Forestry Commission Scotland.... costs about 65 million quid a year for 13400 equivalent full time jobs. Those jobs are in ALL forestry; the FC own about a third of woodland nationally(UK), probably a higher percentage in Scotland, so say 10000 jobs ball park. Good value?? Sustainable?? The Adam Smith Institute did research into the FC(UK) concluding...

'This opens up the prospect of abolishing a department
which for ninety years has pretty much defined “not fit for
purpose”, plus saving the government up to £240m per
annum and opening up the prospect of realising some
£4.3bn as set out in the table below.'

Environmentally, not all believe the FC to be a force for good. Witness the RSPB:

'The RSPB, and other environmental organisations, were concerned about the scale, quality
and location of new planting driven by earlier government forestry expansion programmes in
Scotland. Although the policy has improved, the RSPB remains concerned about the
continuing legacy of the forestry plantations that were created, some of which continue to
damage biodiversity.'

Hydro and wind schemes provide but transitory employment. Hydro schemes will continue, rightly; wind schemes will I suspect die the death when the truth about the costs becomes apparent.

ALL investment through agricultural subsidy comes from Europe. This investment will be lost until/if Scotland is permitted to rejoin the EU. A lengthy period if you are to believe EU bods, and will only be permitted if Scotland joins the euro. No period at all if you are to believe eck. The subsidy regime has/is changing significantly; there will be less cash all round.

Nowhere have I said anything about landowners having any sort of veto. You made that bit up.

There is absolutely nothing stopping tourist guides and mountain bike guides setting up shop now. The only reason they haven't is the limited market. Repair techs? I don't see mountain bike repair techs, valuable though they may be, being the answer to rural repopulation. What would you have them do from September to May? Have you even tried to get a cup of tea in northern Scotland in December....or North Uist in April come to that!! Mountain bikers and tourists are a significant income....for 6/7 months. My wife and I have been taking holidays in Scotland in December for the last 13 years....it being out of season for us....but we have decided not to bother anymore because everywhere is closed! Even The Three Chimneys on Skye is now shut in December and January. Market forces have dictated that even this international destination cannot make money in the winter! I do not see how you can defy market forces to rejuvenate rural populations. 'Specialist workshops...' fine words, but what exactly do you mean?

The sad reality is that we cannot turn the clock back. We cannot uninvent farm machinery and intensive farming, the main drivers of rural employment. We cannot rely on the state to put OUR money into heather and hill at the expense of urban demands. We need willing investors in rural Scotland, and the vast bulk of this is private money flowing up and in. Scotland cannot afford to reject such cash, and that is what will very likely happen once the urban driven and socialist majority dictate what happens in the bulk of the land mass; that which they rarely visit and know little about. To ignore this reality is to effectively turn the 'country' into a vast outdoors gym, to be visited before we return to the town, leaving the 'country' an uninhabited desert.

This much vaunted and lauded 'democracy' could be the finish of rural Scotland. Thats why I take every opportunity to bang my drum!! We are better together, if only to stop the extremists taking power and wrecking what is left.

We keep being told that to vote for independence is NOT a vote for the SNP. Eh?? Of course it is.

Oh, and rural Scotland....thats the bit without street lights.....or lamp lighters....

I realise that all of my views are a reflection of my own, admittedly, narrow perspective, and will not appeal to many, but I think they have a profound relevance for a huge lump of Scotland and its future.

 

[Posh Pete]

We'll have to agree to differ on this Gerry. Meantime ... http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/aug/10/scotland-land-rights

 

[gerarddwatts]

Hmmmm. I've read it. An article written by an idiot. For idiots. The Guardian?? But I dont expect anyone to agree with me. So whatever.

This article is so full of emotive rubbish as to make it worthless..

'It is the Glorious 12th and the annual game-bird cannonball run will have begun. Do creatures which survive to breed early next spring hold a secret ceremony down among the bracken to celebrate their escape?'

or;

'Perhaps too, there are thousands among Europe's party elite who believe that Scotland truly is an under-populated wilderness where you shoot your dinner by day and dance on your tiptoes by night alongside men with skirts and maidens with marble bosoms'

or;

'It's not difficult to see how those figures are reached. Last month a week of fishing and stalking in Sutherland's Reay forest estate was being offered for £6,500. There are red stags and Atlantic salmon to be had. We are told further that two rods are available on the river Laxford and there are 10 stags.Fill your boots, presumably. There is accommodation for 13 with the services of a cook and housekeeper. The lady to contact is called Goodwillie; surely Richard Briers's old nemesis in Monarch of the Glen isn't still "jouking" about the hills?'

or;

'Do the hedge fund managers and merchant bankers who descend on these wildernesses drive down to the nearest Tesco for their provisions'(......actually ...YES!)

The 'article' goes on to discuss the sad case of a tenant farmer who committed suicide after he lost a court case against his landlord, giving it as some sort of argument for land reform.

But tell me, you are saying the supreme court was wrong.....

'In the upheld appeal, senior judge Lord Gill ruled that measures put in place to protect tenants in such areas were not compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights.'

Or the ECHR??

Or the SNP Government??

'Mr McCall added that he was shocked and dismayed to hear the Government may not proceed with its appeal.'

Interesting that his obituary in the Scottish Farmer made not a word of mention of his lost court case.

The Guardian however....written by a journalist to sell newspapers.....

If you are going to give me evidence to support your beliefs, make sure it stands the test of examination.

 

[doyle]

Och the only bit of all these posts worth reading and getting all excited about was '[maidens with marble bosoms]' Thats what Scotland needs more of.

 

[Posh Pete]

Och the only bit of all these posts worth reading and getting all excited about was '[maidens with marble bosoms]' Thats what Scotland needs more of.

Good old Tosser humour re asserts itself.

I'm out.

 

[gerarddwatts]

And sack Doyle...that'll sort out the FC....

 

[doyle]

Ha ,i'm their biggest asset and lowest paid

 

[Posh Pete]

Er ... I know I said I was out but George Monbiot must have been eavesdropping on this thread!

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...s-rid-scotland-of-feudal-landowners-highlands

It's the Guardian Gerry!

 

[gerarddwatts]

Aaaaah!! Just back after a few days in the wet west....great fun despite the weather....new GS Is a thing of joy.

Now then. George Monbiot. I think you'll find that the only people that take much notice of his idiot ramblings are fellow Guardian readers....a faithful but decreasing crew....their circulation figures have decreased dramatically year on year and they now sell, as a UK newspaper, less copies than the Daily Record, a local paper with a very restricted 'client base'. Interesting though, that he should hitch his wagon to the 'Yes' campaign as a vehicle to further his own rabid, highly socialist, anti-fieldsport, anti land-owner bandwagon. A pattern of similar support is developing from a motley crew of minority pressure groups....CND, Greens, Extreme Socialists(Tommy???), animal rights campaigners, anti nuclear eedjits, etc etc, none of whom have any real interest in Scotland, but every interest in promoting their own odd agendas, which they think will do well in an independent Scotland whose governance is so weak as to search out every vote no matter what the cost. Nutters of the world unite and focus in Scotland!

George Monbiot is a metropolitan London based journalist with absolutely no knowledge or experience of that which he disparages so readily.

So you decide. Believe Monbiot whose pieces are based wholly on prejudice, vitriol and ignorance, or me, based on knowledge and experience. Up to you.
The only casualty will be Scotland if you get it wrong

 

[Ronno]

Great. Another political thread that I can ignore