A Gearbox rebuild question ???????????????

2vornot2v

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Hi. I have a bit of a gearbox problem and thought to join the forum in the hope that someone may have experienced or overcome something similar. The symptom is an excessively tight input shaft in a newly rebuilt 5 speed box. I have built many of these boxes and to date this is the first one to behave in this way.

As for the shimming: I have checked and rechecked the clearances several times and correctly selected shims allowing for suitable clearance, but for some reason each time the cover plate is tensioned into place the input shaft feels way too tight to turn. As soon as the tension on the cover is relieved the shaft feels more like it should. This indicates to me that the shim clearance may be a little too tight but what it doesn't explain is why? Considering that the output and intermediate shafts feel fine and were both checked the same way, I'm now a little puzzled as to what might be the cause. Am I missing something obvious?.

Regards clearances: I usually prefer to set the input shaft up to a slightly tighter tolerance but in this instance I've reset several times in my efforts to acheive a result and have settled for a looser gap of 0.07mm. Even then the o/p shaft feels too tight with the cover plate tensioned in place.

As far as the other work on this box; All bearings including the front input roller and inner race have been replaced as has the input shaft helical gear and thrust piece. incidentally all springs and circlips etc have also been replaced but those items would have no bearing on this outcome.

What I have noticed with this particular box is that the shim stack calcualtions are all over 1mm each which is at the higher end compared to others that I have done in the past. I hope these symptoms raise some answers. Thanks.
 
Hi,

I have rebuilt 16 of these boxes over the past five years or so - using a shimming plate, Depth Micrometer & an ordinary Micrometer. I carefully select each stack of shims and check the combined thickness until I get the right clearance.

All the boxes have ended-up tight when cold.

If you warm the case with a hot air gun or gas torch it should feel normal.

I use an old clutch friction plate on the input shaft to check the selector action while its cold - If I can turn the plate easily by hand the motor won't have a problem.

It takes about 200 miles for the box to settle down

I have never had anyone complaining that the box didn't feel right or that it failed prematurely.

It sounds as though you have got it right :thumb .

Shim stacks of over 1mm are not unknown ;).

Bob.
 
Hi,

I have rebuilt 16 of these boxes over the past five years or so - using a shimming plate, Depth Micrometer & an ordinary Micrometer. I carefully select each stack of shims and check the combined thickness until I get the right clearance.

All the boxes have ended-up tight when cold.

It takes about 200 miles for the box to settle down

I have never had anyone complaining that the box didn't feel right or that it failed prematurely.

As Bob say's above :thumb2, no complaints from me on both of mine - 80 and 100 GS - still running really nice!
 
I have had this before if its too tight its too tight, take some shims out, some of the end covers can dip in the middle. you can leave it if you want and just add a bit of premature wear to the bearings. if I cant turn the shafts with my fingers with ease when cold they are too tight. you could always light a fire under the gearbox before you ride.
 
I have had this before if its too tight its too tight, take some shims out, some of the end covers can dip in the middle. you can leave it if you want and just add a bit of premature wear to the bearings. if I cant turn the shafts with my fingers with ease when cold they are too tight. you could always light a fire under the gearbox before you ride.

I have rebuilt quite a few too and agree with Richie
I have never had one thats tight to turn when cold if shimmed correctly..Infact if i can't turn it by hand with ease it's comming apart to be reshimmed
As far as i am concerned BMW quote the end folat cold not hot
I have also measured a few end plates for flatness and they are simply not flat and your shimming plate is
I am not convinced a shimming plate is the best way to shim a box because of this reason
I always tap the input and output shafts and measure the endfloat when the box is assembled
But you can't do the same check on the intermediate shaft
I would check it out something is not correct...You will wear the bearings out prematurely
 
Thanks gents. You are very likely correct in your combined thoughts and as I mentioned at the onset, there may not be much in it as the I/P shaft frees up considerably when the cover bolts are evenly loosened a little. It's more that I hate it when something that should be a known does not behave as expected.
 
I've had this box apart several times now and triple checked everything and still the input shaft remains tight when the cover plate is torqued in place. Keeping in mind that the input helical and thrust piece have been replaced in this build, I've even gone so far as to swap the old parts back to check if that was the cause, which it wasn't. As a double check I've also measured those parts to compare new for old and no appreciable variation could be found. I then watched the helicals engage to make sure they were meshing freely and all appeared to be good. Strangely it is only the input shaft that is doing it and only then when the cover is tighened down. i.e. With the cover fitted but not torqued the shaft turns as it should. When the box is heated it does free it up somewhat. The I/P shim stack is now set at 0.10mm gap which is more than I'd like but as that still feels too tight I'm going to install it and see if it settles down after some running. Talk about frustraiting.
 
Did you read what I said. Look your measurement might say you have .1 gap but you don't, you have preload take another .1 out and see if it turns, if it wont take another .1 out ,simple.
 
Did you read what I said. Look your measurement might say you have .1 gap but you don't, you have preload take another .1 out and see if it turns, if it wont take another .1 out ,simple.

Richie is bang on

Chances are your end cover is warped or the clucth end of the shaft is not seating correctly
The only reason it is tightening up is BECAUSE THERE IS NO CLEARANCE
And don't forget heating the case up expands the case but not the shafts like when it's in the bike
You know somthing is wrong you have been given some good advice
Putting a box together with no clearance is just plain stupid
 
I couldn't build a gearbox if tried ..

but ..

if it's the torquing of the cover that causes the IP shaft to tighten ( as you report) then the cover MUST be at fault????
 
Thanks again gents. I think yesterday's frustration had got the better of me and after a night of sleeping on it I'd decided to open it up once again anyway. The plan of attack this time is to reassemble it with just the I/P shaft to confirm that it is the only cause. Back to Richie's comment for a moment, I had done a dummy close up yesterday without any shims to prove exactly that and while it was better it was still too tight for my liking. From there I started looking for any damage to the bearing seats and it did appear that there was some burring at the front I/P bearing seat in one small area. Those marks were more like scratches in the metal though (i.e. not sitting proud above the metal seat in other words.) I got into those lightly with a small file to make sure the area was flat but as it wasn't significant I wasn't really expecting a big win. I also tried a different rear cover to eliminate the possibility of any warping. Hence the frustration. Back to the drawing board.
 
I take it you are tapping the input shaft with a soft hammer while the end cover is still hot . if you don't it will be tight.
 
Yes ritchie the IPS was receiving said tapping while the cover was hot. Final outcome is that I now have an acceptable result albeit that the method of achieving that was not via the usual calculations, but through trial and error feel. 1.10 was the original target stack but was evidently too tight and from there I removed shims until the IPS felt ok. End result; .87mm. What the outcome doesn't explain is why said method was necessary. Bizzarre, but such is as it is. Thanks for your input in any case and from here I'll install it and give it a go.
 
There is always the possibility that you do not have the correct ,loose tolerance, C3 bearings

The extra clearance allows for the slight difference in alignment between the box and case, which is inevitable in a situation where the bearing housings cannot be line bored, and of course might vary from box to box - so even if you have the correct bearings you might still need more clearance than others.

FWIW the boxes were reputed to come from the factory with the thickness of the gasket as the end clearance - probably because the would get through the warranty period that way, but the probably wouldn't if they were too tight.

The well documented failures of the oilhead final drives were the result of insufficient clearance on the large C3 ouitput bearing, they actually had between two and six thou preload and lasted between 2000 and 25000 km.
 
What the outcome doesn't explain is why said method was necessary. Bizzarre, but such is as it is.

It should settle down when its been used under load - but you may not have the right tolerances. Its actually almost impossible to test on the bench as the bearings are pressed onto the shafts and the bearings are then shrunk into the cases which have to be hot. As they cool they tighten, pulling the outer tracks towards the centre of the box.

Time to put the cat amongst the pigeons I guess as I've been thinking long and hard about this and have been doing some research. The result is a four-page paper on the subject that I'll put up here for discussion.

I'm still finishing-off the text but watch this space. Hopefully we will get some useful discussion going.

Bob.
 
Right, I've pulled the pin . . lets see what happens next :D


Commissioning a Re-Built ‘Airhead’ Gearbox

There has been some debate recently about the methods adopted when re-building an Airhead gearbox, in particular around whether one can rely on a shimming plate and shims or whether they have to be built by ‘feel’.
The argument against relying on a shimming plate concerns stiffness in the action when the built-up box is cool, this being seen as the box being over-shimmed and therefore too tight.
The concern was that this would pre-load the ball races leading to premature wear and failure.

As one who has had apparent success with a shimming plate and has done some research into the subject I thought it prudent to record my thoughts and findings from practical experience.

What is ‘Shimming’ ??:

Shimming is the reduction of free play in a shaft by the insertion of thin washers (shims) of known thickness such that the ‘float’ of that shaft in its mounting is reduced to the recommended tolerance.

In an Airhead gearbox, we aim to shim the three shafts to a clearance of 0.05mm.

To do this we install the three shafts in the main gearbox case and then check the clearance of the rear bearings in their housings in the rear cover.

This involves installing a Shimming Plate over the rear bearings on the rear face of the gearbox case. I fit a new gasket to the face, then bolt-down the plate leaving part of the three bearings standing proud above the plate surface.

One then has to use a Depth Micrometer to measure the height of each bearing above the plate in millimetres – taking a number of readings around each bearing.

Secondly, the depth of each bearing housing is measured in millimetres from the inner surface of the rear cover – again, taking multiple readings around the periphery of each housing.

Thirdly, measure the thickness of the Shimming Plate, in millimetres, using an Outside Micrometer.

Fourthly, measure the thickness of the oil baffle that sits at the rear of the Intermediate Shaft with a Micrometer – it is effectively one of the shims.

Now there is a decision to be made as the readings taken with the Depth Micrometer will not be consistent around each bearing or housing. I aim for the tight end of average – more height of bearing, less depth in housing - as this will produce thinner shims. The differences are usually very small.

Finally, calculate the shim thickness for each shaft in millimetres thus:

(Depth in rear cover – 0.05mm) – (Height of bearing above plate + thickness of plate) = Shim

It is a good idea to measure the selected shims – as a stack – with the Micrometer to ensure the combined thickness is correct – there is a surprising variation in the standard shim thickness.


Completing the build:

Having selected the appropriate shims for each shaft, they are placed above the three bearings and the heated rear cover is tapped down over them – the bearings are an ‘interference fit’ in the cover, hence the need for the cover to be at around 160 deg C.

With the hot cover in place the nine machine screws are quickly inserted and pinched-up and then the input shaft is given a tap to seat the rear bearing in the cover.

When the box is cool the cover screws are torqued down to 9 lbs/ft. before the output flange is bolted up to a torque of 161.5 lbs/ft.

When everything is finished I find that the box is stiff to turn by hand. The output flange usually turns but the input shaft needs an old clutch plate attached before it can be easily turned.

Warming the gearbox case with a hot air gun results in the box freeing-up.

Is this a problem ??? Some think it is, I don’t think it is and this is why . . . .


Loading the bearings:

The worry appears to be that having the box tight will put axial load on the ball races that are designed for radial load only. True, but it is a minimal load for a brief initial period and is far less than the on-going load that the bearings are subjected to in normal use.

Airhead boxes contain two types of gear pinion – straight cut and helical.

The front pinions of each of the three shafts are Helical gears that transfer the drive from the input to intermediate to output shafts when the box is in 5th gear (top).

Helical gears are chosen because of their smooth power transition from one to another. The straight cut gears are reserved for the intermediate gears that are not usually used for long distance cruising. The problem with Helical gears is that they produce Side Thrust.

This side thrust can be so severe in the more powerful Boxer engines that it can draw the output shaft back through the front bearing, putting extreme load on the rear bearing and the rear casing. This can cause premature failure of the output shaft bearings and to minimise this effect BMW fit circlips to the output shaft in front of the forward bearing.

Going on and off the power in top gear will therefore shunt all three shafts forward and back in normal use. This is very useful when we first come to use our rebuilt boxes.


What are we shimming ??

When one thinks of shimming we usually think of a shaft that has some movement between bearings – such as the ‘bottom end’ of a simple single cylinder motor. In this case it is a simple matter to bolt it together then use a Dial Gauge on the end of one shaft to measure the total movement.

A simple calculation determines the thickness of shims required on either side of the bottom-end to produce the desired running clearance.

Airhead boxes are not like that. The bearings are pressed onto the shafts (Input shaft roller bearing excluded) and the bearings are then shrunk into the cases by heating the cases. So what are we shimming as there isn’t any apparent running clearance???

The answer is that under load, when the motor is putting 50 BHP or thereabouts through the box, the bearings can move in the case and the shafts can move in the bearings. But you won’t be able to do that on the bench by hand !

We limit the travel of each shaft to 0.05mm in order to preserve the gearchange clearances as the shafts move forward and back in the case as well as limiting side load on the bearings.

These clearances are specified by Getrag ZWN – who make these gearboxes for BMW.


What happens during the build ??

We heat the main case and drop the three shafts in – their front bearings hopefully seating fully in the front housings. A tap with a rubber mallet will settle them as a precaution.

However, when we come to fit the rear cover different forces come into play. The box is usually sitting with the rear facing up so that the oil baffle and shims can be positioned on top of the bearings. As a further precaution I use a small smear of grease to hold the shims to the bearings as they can be easily dislodged.

The rear cover is heated to around 160 deg C and then tapped down over the bearings. The case screws are then inserted and the input shaft tapped back to seat the rear bearing.

Whilst doing this, the hot rear cover is cooling, heating the main case as it does so. The case expands a bit in the process.

As the rear cover cools it grips the bearings, then, as the cover and case cool to room temperature they contract slightly – pulling the bearings towards the centre of the box and putting them under side load.

The shafts are not free to align themselves with their housings. In addition, the stack of shims will not necessarily be compressed together at this stage.

It is only when the box is put under load that the shafts settle down. It is, however practically impossible to check the running clearance of the shafts – hence the need for accurate measurement during the build.

It has been suggested that the rear cases can warp, meaning that individual measurements of the bearing housings are meaningless. All I can say is that I have never noticed a cover that wasn’t flat when placed on a good flat surface. If it was bowed upwards it wouldn’t have shown up, but the resulting clearance would have been greater than required and wouldn’t preload the bearings once the box had settled down.


What do the manufacturers do ??

Anton Largiader has published the transcript of a report on a visit to the Getrag-ZWN factory by German Motorcycle Magazine MO in February 1996. They were particularly interested in the ‘Oilhead’ boxes but the article says that the processes described are also applicable to the ‘Airhead’ boxes.

After discussions on design & testing they came to production and testing. MO spoke to Getrag development engineers Klaus Sommer and Eberhard Schaetzle.

SCHAETZLE: Every fully assembled transmission goes onto a test stand and is thoroughly tested with hot test-oil. Afterwards the hot oil is extracted and along with it the first wearing-in material. The transmission does not need to be broken in. It can be fully loaded from the very beginning.

So new Getrag boxes have been warmed-up and run under some load as part of the initial running-in process. This will have settled the shafts in the cases.


My own experience:

Having started rebuilding Airhead boxes by working on two of mine I found that they settled down quickly and were free after a short time on the road. Since then I have rebuilt many more and have not had any problems reported to me. Quite the reverse, people seem very pleased with the results.

I conclude that one needs to go one step further than the shimming process in order to settle the shafts into the box as it is not possible to seat the Intermediate and Output shafts in the way that the Input shaft can be seated and this requires the box to be put under load.


Bob.
 
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Here is my two pence worth. no1. if as you say the problem is with the input shaft that is tight. that is the only shaft that can be seated in its housing by tapping it with a hammer, you wont get any better side thrust than a hammer, and its still tight, what is bedding in then! no2.helical gears are used because they are silent not because they are smooth, I have full straight cut kits and you need ear plugs. also BMW changed the shaft end clearance to a minimum of .005 and a max of .015 in the later service data.
 
Splendid stuff Bob. Thank you for taking the time to write this out.

At the mo I have a gearbox sitting on the bench with a tight input shaft. The reason it is not going straight back on the bike is that I don't believe the measurement taken for shimming is accurate enough. I will take it to an engineers & look over their shoulders to satisfy myself they are using the right equipment. I also didn't know about tapping the input shaft while the box was hot before reading RMs post.

Can I make a couple of suggestions? Could you highlite the bit where it says It is only when the box is put under load that the shafts settle down. It is, however practically impossible to check the running clearance of the shafts – hence the need for accurate measurement during the build.
Also could you cut & paste this onto the end of yours & Robs gearbox thread - it would tie it in.

I have wondered if they have used modern methods ( I don't know what they are but imagining some kind of MRI for engines:D ) to inspect & measure the wear etc on these old gearboxes.
 
This is great stuff, not that I understand any of it as it is way over my head :D I am always in awe of you guys who know this stuff and can rebuild a gearbox.:thumb
 
What i have done is sacrifice a $10- bearing to make a spacer. I have lightly ground the OD and ID so that it is a firm sliding fit on the shaft and in the end cover.

Saves the cost of the shim plate, parallels, micrometer, straight edge and depth gauge.

Then,one shaft at a time, using that bearing I increase the shim stack 1 mm at a time until the shaft binds, then I was setting the clearance at 4 mm from there.
But I will change it to 5 mm in line with the current factory figure in the future.

This way I can seat the bearing fully in the cover, and there is no variance due to heat, so it is a quick process.And I am measuring the only thing that natters, which is clearance in the rebuilt box.
The system was recommended to me by a time served his time in Hewland, making , among other things, transaxles for F1 cars so I assume they use a similar system.

I wasn't aware that the later clearance was changed to 5 to 15 thou, but I was aware that the factory set the clearance to zero without the gasket, then fit the approx 10 thou gasket as clearance, and that puts it bang in the centre of the new recommendation.

But it is simple - no clearance is wrong - and no mater how long a post is it wont change that simple fact.

I have a scrap box on my bench which was assembled with preload in the output shaft, and most of the bearings have been turning on the shafts and in the box .

This box went 50,000 km, on M1 gear oil, after the $2600- full professional rebuild before the output bearing actually failed, so the fact that a box gets a customer out of sight of the workshop may not be a true indicator that the rebuild is a complete success.
 


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