A Shocked TMF

[the woodster]

I'm not quite sure what point you're making there but no, I own several bikes, some with shit suspension and some with suspension that can take more than my ham fisted riding can throw at it

It's just, for me, ESA crosses a line I don't feel the need to cross........ I do stress the 'for me' bit though. I'm certainly not preaching what others should do.

You make a point about ESA being convenient for switching between one up/two up/luggage. Yes it is but, as you've had quality suspension, you'll also appreciate that properly set up quality shocks need nothing more that a one minute manual adjustment to preload to achieve the same. There is no need to change any of the compression variables as a decent and properly set up shock has enough range to cope.

Anyway, I'm not looking for an argument, I was just giving a slightly different way at looking at the issue. The way I look at it.

Andres

I'm kinda with you. I'll not give my opinion about who is in the right in these circumstances because there are not enough facts available.

TMF decided to obtain a direct replacement albeit second hand and however he got there. Many of us, including Andres wouldn't have taken this route for the various reasons outlined in this thread. I think it's legitimate to explore the options available to TMF in this thread because it could have had an impact on the outcome (so far) e.g. Pissed off BMW dealer and pissed off customer. One of my options to put to them in the event that they wouldn't do a like for like replacement would be to explore whether they would be willing to pay for an after market shock as a compromise, starting at Ohlins and going no lower in quality than Nitron.

I also don't understand the comments about Sachs shocks. Sachs aren't budget shocks. Ducati use them ,amongst others. Electronically controlled shocks have a higher failure rate than non electronically controlled ones for obvious reasons. Guess which manufacturer sells the most ESA equipped bikes in the UK? Would it not be expected that they would therefore have more failures if you compare their sales in proportion with other manufacturers of ESA? Just a thought.

 

[the woodster]

Disagree, my BMW dealer Coopers is excellent if you approach it correctly.

+1 on Coopers in Tunbridge Wells.

 

[RedRick Esq.]

I'm kinda with you. I'll not give my opinion about who is in the right in these circumstances because there are not enough facts available.

TMF decided to obtain a direct replacement albeit second hand and however he got there. Many of us, including Andres wouldn't have taken this route for the various reasons outlined in this thread. I think it's legitimate to explore the options available to TMF in this thread because it could have had an impact on the outcome (so far) e.g. Pissed off BMW dealer and pissed off customer. One of my options to put to them in the event that they wouldn't do a like for like replacement would be to explore whether they would be willing to pay for an after market shock as a compromise, starting at Ohlins and going no lower in quality than Nitron.

I also don't understand the comments about Sachs shocks. Sachs aren't budget shocks. Ducati use them ,amongst others. Electronically controlled shocks have a higher failure rate than non electronically controlled ones for obvious reasons. Guess which manufacturer sells the most ESA equipped bikes in the UK? Would it not be expected that they would therefore have more failures if you compare their sales in proportion with other manufacturers of ESA? Just a thought.

You make good points but i would say that Sachs can make good shocks but they will be making them for BMW at a price dictated by BMW no doubt!

KTM own white power ( or did) and i can tell you that the WP units on a KTM of the same year were way better than the WP units i had on my first GS. This sort of leads me to the conclusion that cheap is what BMW order so shoddy is what the and us get

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

Offski fuck

..............

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/yYrKe8K9lEY?rel=0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Andres

 

[the woodster]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/yYrKe8K9lEY?rel=0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Andres

I am a big fan of Smokey Robinson & The Miracles but I also really liked this cover!!

 

[Nice 'n' Fat]

Disagree, my BMW dealer Coopers is excellent if you approach it correctly.

As are most dealers once you pass the 'attitude' test

 

[fred_jb]

I'm not quite sure what point you're making there but no, I own several bikes, some with shit suspension and some with suspension that can take more than my ham fisted riding can throw at it

It's just, for me, ESA crosses a line I don't feel the need to cross........ I do stress the 'for me' bit though. I'm certainly not preaching what others should do.

You make a point about ESA being convenient for switching between one up/two up/luggage. Yes it is but, as you've had quality suspension, you'll also appreciate that properly set up quality shocks need nothing more that a one minute manual adjustment to preload to achieve the same. There is no need to change any of the compression variables as a decent and properly set up shock has enough range to cope.

Anyway, I'm not looking for an argument, I was just giving a slightly different way at looking at the issue. The way I look at it.

Andres

Not looking for an argument either, but I would disagree that a quick twiddle of the preload is all you need when changing the load on a bike. If you double the weight on the bike by adding a pillion and luggage, yes you would need to adjust the preload, and hopefully it has enough adjustment to get back to a sensible ride height, but all that extra weight oscillating up and down on the back of the bike requires non-trivial adjustment to the damping too, to stand any chance of keeping it all under decent control.

I speak from experience as I had endless problems with a Versys 1000 I owned, after my wife started touring with me. It was difficult to get the adjustment right for both solo and two-up with luggage, and I was never happy with it fully loaded, even after fitting a replacement rear shock with stronger spring. I also found that the damping adjustments that made it OK-ish fully loaded made it downright scary to ride solo, so it always had to be laboriously changed to suit solo or two-up riding.

This was really my motivation to buy the latest GS with semi-active suspension, which takes care of the damping adjustment both for loading changes and road conditions, and the automatic preload adjustment which takes care of the loading variations. This has been a revelation and absolutely fixes all the problems I had with previous bikes, and without tedious manual twiddling of preload and damping. I can now just get on the bike and ride - it feels great solo, and once it adjusts to the extra load of pillion and luggage it feels hardly any different when riding heavily loaded - which is just what I had hoped for when I bought the bike.

Maybe there is a price to pay in reliability for this extra complexity, but hopefully that will improve as it gradually becomes the norm on all bikes.

Fred

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

Not looking for an argument either, but I would disagree that a quick twiddle of the preload is all you need when changing the load on a bike. If you double the weight on the bike by adding a pillion and luggage, yes you would need to adjust the preload, and hopefully it has enough adjustment to get back to a sensible ride height, but all that extra weight oscillating up and down on the back of the bike requires non-trivial adjustment to the damping too, to stand any chance of keeping it all under decent control.

I speak from experience as I had endless problems with a Versys 1000 I owned, after my wife started touring with me. It was difficult to get the adjustment right for both solo and two-up with luggage, and I was never happy with it fully loaded, even after fitting a replacement rear shock with stronger spring. I also found that the damping adjustments that made it OK-ish fully loaded made it downright scary to ride solo, so it always had to be laboriously changed to suit solo or two-up riding.

...........

Fred

Agreed, something like a Versys would need lots of adjustments to compensate for different loads.

I was making the point that 'good quality' suspension (eg top end WP, Öhlins etc) has enough range of damping to cope with most variations in load and, as long as it's well set up (eg correct spring rate etc) then all that's needed is a quick twiddle on the preload. No more, no less.

I was also making the point that fitting good quality suspension to a 'base' bike must be in or around the price of, at best average, ESA suspension?

As an example, I had the WP suspension on my 1190R rebuilt (re-shimmed etc) and set up properly for my weight by MTC. They are suspension specialists and work, mostly, with Öhlins. Once the work was carried out and, after numerous test rides, they got the damping (slow/fast/rebound) spot on for my riding style and I was given the following instructions:

More weight on the bike; wind up the rear (only) preload. Fast off road, wind down the front (only) preload and, you know what, two up and with luggage she handles just as well as solo. Fast forest fire tracks with jumps and she's like a 450 dirt bike [1]

Andres

[1] Possibly a bit of an exaggeration to say she's like a 450 dirt bike but hopefully you get the picture

 

[Nutty]

Your on your own jack ?? the only reason TMF is getting this resolved is because he took his complaint to social media and now the dealer is trying to keep face.

Lessons learnt !! Bmw is now all about profit and low ball manufacturing costs.

I don't agree. BMW has replaced items on my bikes under warranty over the years that they cold have easily refused to, and have gone the extra mile.

 

[Neil W]

I personally would not have bought another GSA if there was not a non ESA option available, every ESA bike (more so the LC models )I've ridden always has had a a compromised ride quality, my old GSA tc basic was fitted with Maxtons by me , front never needed touched for the 3 years I had the bike whether it was ridden solo, solo with luggage or two up with luggage.The shocks are still going strong 4 years later with no problems

The rear needed a turn and a half on the easily accessible preload adjuster for two up touring (hardly a load of hassle), ride quality was superb and almost magic carpet like smooth on all road surfaces yet the bike handled like it was on rails .

Plus if in the future I decide the upgrade the shocks on my new basic it is a simple job with numerous manufacturers producing easily rebuildable quality units at a damned sight less than BMW charge for ESA shocks .

 

[RedRick Esq.]

I don't agree. BMW has replaced items on my bikes under warranty over the years that they cold have easily refused to, and have gone the extra mile.

Ah yes but that was when you were the WC Mod and had Power !

But seriously i seem to recall you did have some major issue with a bike that was escalated up and up until you got some satisfaction

 

[Nutty]

Ah yes but that was when you were the WC Mod and had Power !

But seriously i seem to recall you did have some major issue with a bike that was escalated up and up until you got some satisfaction

Yep, there was that one, but they’ve stepped up on more than one occasion since.

 

[fred_jb]

I was making the point that 'good quality' suspension (eg top end WP, Öhlins etc) has enough range of damping to cope with most variations in load and, as long as it's well set up (eg correct spring rate etc) then all that's needed is a quick twiddle on the preload. No more, no less.

I don't really understand that statement - the shock may well have a wide range of damping adjustment, but don't you actually have to turn the compression and rebound adjuster screws to make use of different parts of that wide range to best match the load on the bike?

I suppose it is possible that the preload adjustor on high end shocks automatically also changes the damping to suit the load, but I've never come across any information to this effect.

Fred

 

[Blackal]

I don't really understand that statement - the shock may well have a wide range of damping adjustment, but don't you actually have to turn the compression and rebound adjuster screws to make use of different parts of that wide range to best match the load on the bike?

I suppose it is possible that the preload adjustor on high end shocks automatically also changes the damping to suit the load, but I've never come across any information to this effect.

Fred

I think, in general - a good aftermarket shock/forks/fork inserts, with rear remote preload adjustment - will give an overall better ride than most of the electronic units (albeit - I have heard that Ducati Skyhook suspension is great)

If I could have afforded it, and BMW would supply the bare bike - I would have gone for Ohlins Forks/inserts and Shock - for my S1000XR. But - perhaps going down that route - would have liberated brand new units to sell on, although the ability to buy cheap(ish) S/H units from Continental Europe (prob from stolen bikes) - makes that notion a bit of a gamble

Good specialist suspension (Ohlins, Wilbers, WP, Nitron, Maxton et all) is streets ahead of BMW Electronic offerings (IMO)

 

[fred_jb]

I think, in general - a good aftermarket shock/forks/fork inserts, with rear remote preload adjustment - will give an overall better ride than most of the electronic units (albeit - I have heard that Ducati Skyhook suspension is great)

That may well be true, especially if compression/rebound damping and preload are carefully adjusted to the optimum setting for your particular use.

My issue, if that's the right word, is that when you frequently change between solo and two-up with luggage, then you are faced with changing both damping and preload settings manually, because settings which are optimum for solo use will not be optimum for two-up with luggage use. Not such a problem for people who rarely or never ride two-up, and to be fair not a huge problem to change the settings between the two cases once you have established optimum settings for each, assuming there is adequate adjustment range available.

However, you do forego the on the fly damping adjustment for road conditions and riding style which semi-active systems like ESA and Ducati's skyhook supposedly provide, which I'm sure goes some way towards compensating for the possible advantages of optimally adjusted non-active units. Personally, I'm prepared to trade-off what in reality is probably a minimal difference in suspension performance for the convenience of automatic and on the fly adjustment. YMMV.

 

[rjsmith26]

Right - this is shooting ourselves in the foot somewhat but hey, in for a penny......

So TMF bought the bike from us, we know him well (on the sales side at least), he's been very complimentary about us and BMW Motorrad in his previous videos - it's fair to say that he is a good customer. Why we didn't go further to help him on this particular occasion is very, very frustrating. From our side, lessons have been learnt to try and understand what a customer is going to do when presented with an unexpected cost such as this. A little bit of empathy goes a long way under these circumstances. The cost is expensive but that is what we pay to buy the part from BMW. The component shouldn't fail but it can happen, as we know. Sachs is a good manufacturer but there will be a spectrum of failures across age and mileage - hopefully with the majority being much older and with many more miles.

BMW will support (and would have supported - regardless of it being a vlogger or not) the repair, which makes it more frustrating really. Our offer is we sort this out so that TMF gets a new shock of known origin - we haven't spoken to Andy about this yet but it would hopefully allow him to recoup his outlay if he can sell the shock on.

The conversation on here has drifted off into the realms of legal proceedings and the likes and the comments are right in that a warranty or goodwill are just there to support your legal rights, not replace them. BMW are very good at supporting customers (generally) and we would normally try and apply common sense - we just completely missed the opportunity to make something good out of a disappointing situation on this occasion. It's easy to say that this isn't how we normally look after our customers....

I think the point about not fitting a second-hand component is ok. I think asking TMF to sign to say he was taking the bike away with an unresolved fault is ok too.

An interesting situation that highlights that we always have the opportunity to learn more.

I'm sure there will be plenty more comments.

Good on you sir , as you say shame it came to this and seems that is a mix of customer and dealer, but I dib my hat to you in attempting to improve this situation and also applaud you as I assume you have had to argue the point with BMW to get them to divi up the shock or at least contribute towards it. Looking forward to TMF video of you guys sorting this out.

 

[Rich1150]

Yes everone loves a happy ending.
Will the service guy get "re-training" &#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;

 

[Blackal]

That may well be true, especially if compression/rebound damping and preload are carefully adjusted to the optimum setting for your particular use.

My issue, if that's the right word, is that when you frequently change between solo and two-up with luggage, then you are faced with changing both damping and preload settings manually, because settings which are optimum for solo use will not be optimum for two-up with luggage use. Not such a problem for people who rarely or never ride two-up, and to be fair not a huge problem to change the settings between the two cases once you have established optimum settings for each, assuming there is adequate adjustment range available.

However, you do forego the on the fly damping adjustment for road conditions and riding style which semi-active systems like ESA and Ducati's skyhook supposedly provide, which I'm sure goes some way towards compensating for the possible advantages of optimally adjusted non-active units. Personally, I'm prepared to trade-off what in reality is probably a minimal difference in suspension performance for the convenience of automatic and on the fly adjustment. YMMV.

I think that if you have properly-set up aftermarket suspension (not talking about a visit to an “expert’ here) - then when you load up the bike with a pillion - and/or luggage....... an adjustment to the rear preload will still give you an overall - better year’s roadholding, than electronic suspension from the maker.

If it goes off after 5yrs - send it off for overhaul.

I reckon if BMW made it easier to buy a non-SE suspension model, and dealers embraced the supply/fitment - a lot more buyers would eschew the BMW-Electronic suspension.

Opinions vary, of course.

 

[yofi]

Good on you sir , as you say shame it came to this and seems that is a mix of customer and dealer, but I dib my hat to you in attempting to improve this situation and also applaud you as I assume you have had to argue the point with BMW to get them to divi up the shock or at least contribute towards it. Looking forward to TMF video of you guys sorting this out.

+1


...................

 

[Bobbin-Man]

So how does, say, a Wilbers WESA setup compare to the BMW/Sachs ESA?

I've had a non-ESA hexhead with Ohlins front & rear and the difference over the standard suspension is chalk & cheese, not just compliance but the range of adjustment of preload and compression/rebound is far more noticeable than with the o/e shocks. It's tempting to invest in the WESA conversion on the LC ESA shocks before they're too old with a view to returning the bike back to the o/e setup when it's time to sell.