A Shocked TMF

[JohnnyBoxer]

Coming at this from a bit of a different angle; am I the only one that would never buy a bike, regardless of how much I wanted one and regardless of make, if my only option was I had to have ESA type suspension

As far as I'm concerned, the concept is not yet fully developed and is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, much like a lot of modern frippery starting to find it's way onto bikes.

If you spent the extra money that ESA costs on quality manual suspension you'd still have 'bragging rights' to your mates if that's your bag but, more importantly, you'd have a better suspended and better handling bike than an ESA equipped one.

Andres

No, I wouldn't buy one either

 

[Rushy]

Yes you are

Oh no hes not .........my "basic" twin cam 1200GS TB was perfect without the ESA and the dreaded ABS pump both of which are known BMW weak points.....of course the starter motor still failed and the alternator needed replacing after it seized too

 

[Sea Dog]

Not looking for an argument either, but I would disagree that a quick twiddle of the preload is all you need when changing the load on a bike. If you double the weight on the bike by adding a pillion and luggage, yes you would need to adjust the preload, and hopefully it has enough adjustment to get back to a sensible ride height, but all that extra weight oscillating up and down on the back of the bike requires non-trivial adjustment to the damping too, to stand any chance of keeping it all under decent control.

I speak from experience as I had endless problems with a Versys 1000 I owned, after my wife started touring with me. It was difficult to get the adjustment right for both solo and two-up with luggage, and I was never happy with it fully loaded, even after fitting a replacement rear shock with stronger spring. I also found that the damping adjustments that made it OK-ish fully loaded made it downright scary to ride solo, so it always had to be laboriously changed to suit solo or two-up riding.

This was really my motivation to buy the latest GS with semi-active suspension, which takes care of the damping adjustment both for loading changes and road conditions, and the automatic preload adjustment which takes care of the loading variations. This has been a revelation and absolutely fixes all the problems I had with previous bikes, and without tedious manual twiddling of preload and damping. I can now just get on the bike and ride - it feels great solo, and once it adjusts to the extra load of pillion and luggage it feels hardly any different when riding heavily loaded - which is just what I had hoped for when I bought the bike.

Maybe there is a price to pay in reliability for this extra complexity, but hopefully that will improve as it gradually becomes the norm on all bikes.

Fred

What you touch on there Fred, and others seem to have missed completely, is the ability so switch between soft/normal/hard on the move. Yeah, manual suspension can be adjusted fairly readily for preload when it's time to take the missus out or whatever, but a press of a button to some out of armchair mode as you leave the motorway is more than just pretty handy, isn't it.

 

[Wonkey donkey]

Yep, there was that one, but they’ve stepped up on more than one occasion since.

Hence why you have become a BMW bitch

 

[fred_jb]

What you touch on there Fred, and others seem to have missed completely, is the ability so switch between soft/normal/hard on the move. Yeah, manual suspension can be adjusted fairly readily for preload when it's time to take the missus out or whatever, but a press of a button to some out of armchair mode as you leave the motorway is more than just pretty handy, isn't it.

Yes agreed, though the latest bikes just let you select ROAD, DYNAMIC, or ENDURO as the damping modes, and AUTO, MIN, or MAX for the preload.

The other usability issue which the fans of conventional suspension have failed to address is that if you greatly increase the load on the suspension, by adding a pillion and luggage, you have to adjust the damping too - so it's not just a matter of a couple of turns on the preload adjuster and away you go, as a couple of people have stated. Of course you could just increase the preload, but without properly adjusting the damping too I imagine there will be a lot of wallowing going on!

In the manual, BMW's own instructions for the non-ESA bike give a warning: "Spring preload setting and spring-strut damping setting not matched - impaired handling." and goes on to state: "An increase in spring preload requires firmer damping, a reduction in spring preload requires softer damping." Nobody has given me any explanation, let alone a convincing one, of how needing to adjust the damping as well as the preload can be avoided in these circumstances, with non-ESA suspension.

 

[Nutty]

Hence why you have become a BMW bitch

So much so that I no longer own a BMW

 

[the woodster]

Yes agreed, though the latest bikes just let you select ROAD, DYNAMIC, or ENDURO as the damping modes, and AUTO, MIN, or MAX for the preload.

The other usability issue which the fans of conventional suspension have failed to address is that if you greatly increase the load on the suspension, by adding a pillion and luggage, you have to adjust the damping too - so it's not just a matter of a couple of turns on the preload adjuster and away you go, as a couple of people have stated. Of course you could just increase the preload, but without properly adjusting the damping too I imagine there will be a lot of wallowing going on!

In the manual, BMW's own instructions for the non-ESA bike give a warning: "Spring preload setting and spring-strut damping setting not matched - impaired handling." and goes on to state: "An increase in spring preload requires firmer damping, a reduction in spring preload requires softer damping." Nobody has given me any explanation, let alone a convincing one, of how needing to adjust the damping as well as the preload can be avoided in these circumstances, with non-ESA suspension.

You are quite right - the ESA changes the compression and rebound settings to accommodate the extra weight as well. Adjusting the preload for extra weight doesn't make the spring stiffer, it just raises the rear to ensure handling stability.

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

Yes agreed, though the latest bikes just let you select ROAD, DYNAMIC, or ENDURO as the damping modes, and AUTO, MIN, or MAX for the preload.

The other usability issue which the fans of conventional suspension have failed to address is that if you greatly increase the load on the suspension, by adding a pillion and luggage, you have to adjust the damping too - so it's not just a matter of a couple of turns on the preload adjuster and away you go, as a couple of people have stated. Of course you could just increase the preload, but without properly adjusting the damping too I imagine there will be a lot of wallowing going on!

In the manual, BMW's own instructions for the non-ESA bike give a warning: "Spring preload setting and spring-strut damping setting not matched - impaired handling." and goes on to state: "An increase in spring preload requires firmer damping, a reduction in spring preload requires softer damping." Nobody has given me any explanation, let alone a convincing one, of how needing to adjust the damping as well as the preload can be avoided in these circumstances, with non-ESA suspension.

It takes 30 seconds to adjust the spring preload and 30 seconds to adjust the damping collar on a conventional quality Ohlins or Wilbers

Hardly difficult FFS

Plus when you know how suspension really works on your bike, you can fine tune it to get great results

Quality suspension is infinitely better than the limitations of ESA, because if yo're putting a large load on a ESA equipped bike the spring weight may still be incorrect for that load, despite all the fancy settings

One spring weight is not a panacea for a 13st rider or a 20st one on a ESA equipped GS, is it

 

[fred_jb]

You are quite right - the ESA changes the compression and rebound settings to accommodate the extra weight as well.

Yes, and I imagine the latest bikes with the auto preload adjustment can do this much more precisely because the system can infer from the amount of preload it has to apply, exactly what weight is on the bike. On the previous system there were just three presets, 1 helmet, 2 helmets, and 2 helmets plus luggage, by which the user was expected to inform the bike of the load placed on it, so unless the older bikes also had the height measuring arm on the suspension I don't see how their damping adjustments could be as accurate as the latest bikes.

 

[Blackal]

Yes agreed, though the latest bikes just let you select ROAD, DYNAMIC, or ENDURO as the damping modes, and AUTO, MIN, or MAX for the preload.

The other usability issue which the fans of conventional suspension have failed to address is that if you greatly increase the load on the suspension, by adding a pillion and luggage, you have to adjust the damping too - so it's not just a matter of a couple of turns on the preload adjuster and away you go, as a couple of people have stated. Of course you could just increase the preload, but without properly adjusting the damping too I imagine there will be a lot of wallowing going on!

In the manual, BMW's own instructions for the non-ESA bike give a warning: "Spring preload setting and spring-strut damping setting not matched - impaired handling." and goes on to state: "An increase in spring preload requires firmer damping, a reduction in spring preload requires softer damping." Nobody has given me any explanation, let alone a convincing one, of how needing to adjust the damping as well as the preload can be avoided in these circumstances, with non-ESA suspension.

You are quite right - the ESA changes the compression and rebound settings to accommodate the extra weight as well. Adjusting the preload for extra weight doesn't make the spring stiffer, it just raises the rear to ensure handling stability.

Sounds good - go with that, then.

I know I prefer my 4 bikes that have Ohlins and Wilbers suspension against the one with BMW Electronic system (that potentially costs £1,800 for a replacement shock )

I don’t think either camp will change opinion, though - and thats fine.

 

[fred_jb]

It takes 30 seconds to adjust the spring preload and 30 seconds to adjust the damping collar on a conventional quality Ohlins or Wilbers

Hardly difficult FFS

Plus when you know how suspension really works on your bike, you can fine tune it to get great results

Quality suspension is infinitely better than the limitations of ESA, because if yo're putting a large load on a ESA equipped bike the spring weight may still be incorrect for that load, despite all the fancy settings

One spring weight is not a panacea for a 13st rider or a 20st one on a ESA equipped GS, is it

The point is, however easy, with non-ESA suspension you still have to adjust it manually every time you change from solo to two-up if you want the handling to be decent.

As regards spring weight - same situation with an Ohlins or Wilbers if we are talking solo v two-up with luggage. Whatever spring weight you choose on your high end shock is going to be a compromise when you go from 90 kg rider to 190 Kg of rider, pillion, and luggage. At least with ESA you don't have to manually make the necessary changes in preload and damping settings to make the best of this compromise.

That's all I'm saying - non-ESA may get you better reliability, which is why it is being talked about in this thread, but there is a trade-off with convenience in use, especially for people who tour with a pillion, but ride solo most of the rest of the time, as I do. You pays your money and you takes your choice!

 

[the woodster]

I agree, suspension that has been set up for you personally, using the correct spring rate for your weight and style of riding, combined with infinite adjustment levels of compression and rebound will always be superior technically, even if some riders can't feel any or little difference. All the manufacturers produce linear rear shock springs with spring rates for the average weight rider and smaller bands of adjustment for compression and rebound.

 

[fred_jb]

I agree, suspension that has been set up for you personally, using the correct spring rate for your weight and style of riding, combined with infinite adjustment levels of compression and rebound will always be superior technically, even if some riders can't feel any or little difference. All the manufacturers produce linear rear shock springs with spring rates for the average weight rider and smaller bands of adjustment for compression and rebound.

Not going to help when you more than double the weight on the bike by adding pillion and luggage! Oh - and no shock has infinite levels of damping adjustment.

 

[the woodster]

Not going to help when you more than double the weight on the bike by adding pillion and luggage!

No, indeed. I have a 2017 GS LC with the new suspension which is considered top end ESA suspension. Breaking it down into it's basic parts, the shock is a Sachs and good quality, but the spring is rated for the average rider weight. You then combine this with essentially only two levels of compression and rebound damping which are linked and work together: Road and dynamic. So I have a single setting for normal and one for hard. The Triumph Explorer has more compression and rebound settings on their ESA (I think it's ten on each). So technically, it's an overall better shock. But to make it a bit more even I have auto preload which because it works on weight sensors etc is designed to be more accurate then hand adjusted preload.

All the quality non-ESA aftermarket stuff has at least 20 damping settings. Some even have high and low speed rebound/compression which is when I wonder how most people would even know where to start and equally importantly, finish!!

The secrets in the set-up IMHO.

 

[fred_jb]

No, indeed. I have a 2017 GS LC with the new suspension which is considered top end ESA suspension. Breaking it down into it's basic parts, the shock is a Sachs and good quality, but the spring is rated for the average rider weight. You then combine this with essentially only two levels of compression and rebound damping which are linked and work together: Road and dynamic. So I have a single setting for normal and one for hard. The Triumph Explorer has more compression and rebound settings on their ESA (I think it's ten on each). So technically, it's an overall better shock.

All the quality non-ESA aftermarket stuff has at least 20 damping settings. Some even have high and low speed rebound/compression which is when I wonder how most people would even know where to start and equally importantly, finish!!

The secrets in the set-up IMHO.

Yes - I fitted a Wilbers 641 to a previous bike and replaced the damping rod internals in the forks with aftermarket cartridges. A big improvement, but endless potential for increasingly non-productive tweaking! However I did like the separate high and low speed compression damping adjustment on the Wilbers.

Regarding the ESA damping adjustment - correct me if I am wrong, but I understood that the user settings (ROAD and DYNA) don't directly select a fixed level of damping, but rather they just biaise the electronically adjustable damping towards different parts of its range, as does the preload setting. Not sure what that range is in total, but I'm pretty sure it will be reasonably wide.

 

[fred_jb]

All I have found so far is that "The damping action of spring struts is thus adapted at the front and rear via electrically actuated control valves." The documentation on earlier ESA versions talks about a stepper motor which I presume just does electrically what you would otherwise do with a screwdriver on the adjuster, but electrically actuated valves sounds a bit more advanced.

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

All the quality non-ESA aftermarket stuff has at least 20 damping settings. Some even have high and low speed rebound/compression which is when I wonder how most people would even know where to start and equally importantly, finish!!

The secrets in the set-up IMHO.

You can learn it, if you want by listening to and being shown by a suspension tuner, how it all works and how to experiment

How do you think race bikes shave 1/10th of a second a lap, by altering suspension settings?

They work from a base-line and go from there


No GP bikes have ESA, if it was so good they would.................but it ain't - it's just another way for bike manufacturers to extract money profit from their bikes, when they sell them to ordinary punters like you

 

[fred_jb]

No GP bikes have ESA, if it was so good they would.................but it ain't - it's just another way for bike manufacturers to extract money profit from their bikes, when they sell them to ordinary punters like you

That's because it is not allowed on GP bikes!

I don't for one minute believe it wouldn't be on there if it was allowed.

 

[Wonkey donkey]

So much so that I no longer own a BMW

Bet you do within the next 12 months. Bahnstormer will want you as their brand ambassador after the support you have shown in this thread and offer you super duper deals to buy your allegiance once again.

 

[Blackal]

Bahnstormer will want you as their brand ambassador after the support you have shown.......

Garmin have first refusal, I believe.........