ABS Pressure Modulator failed (again) - 2005 R1200GS

[SnowMec]

do you turn it all off or just the back wheel's ABS ?
if you brake hard the back wheel comes off the ground anyway

When you turn off the ABS, the motorcycle is completely without ABS system. The motorcycle then works exactly like one without ABS. It is necessary to switch off the ABS to be able to lock the rear wheel with the rear brake. That's how I get around the bends when I'm driving in sand/mud/loose gravel. With ABS, you basically have no rear brake on loose surfaces. It is therefore necessary to switch off ABS when driving off-road. I drive as little asphalt as I can with my GSA, it works best on dirt roads. My question is if it is illegal in other countries to turn off ABS? If so, how does it work? Do you get a fine and revoked insurance if you switch off ABS?

 

[botus]

there is little clarity re you first post on can you turn it off - its a great question - the feature was intended, as you do using the vehicle off the public roads - UK legislation for motorbikes at present has forgotten they made ABS mandatory for large bikes in 2012 and later mandatory for all - and thus the MOT doesn't yet check bikes

but - and this is where an individual might get away with things, other laws and regs relate to vehicles - and thus often you are in the realm of how the incompetently the plod, the CPS or a court may do stuff - mostly it will come down to the level of carnage for a given incident... insurers are lazy. If its cheaper to pay for a new grip, brake lever and cam cover than argue with a difficult lawyer who know his game they go easy route - but when three are dead and one was wealthy they seldom get it wrong....

And one bloke on the phone who works in a call centre and doesn't have a driving license saying its OK - is not the same as the insurer giving you in writing for x vehicle we are OK you messed about with the brakes - these days its almost impossible to talk to an insurer, often you only deal with a call centre hoodie working with multiple policies and he has no interest in your issue or the law - just his commission for getting you to pay up

everyone wants an easy life and believe they have freedoms - they don't - so many let stuff go till it really matters - just saying remove ABS, I've done loads and no one cares is misleading - its not their house and freedom at risk - where the monetary aspect goes wild if it all goes wrong the insurer will ALWAYS wriggle and you will almost always lose

one could argue turning off ABS for use on the public roads would be riding without due care and attention.... so as you crash turn the key off - and hope on older stuff they don't have the level of monitoring they do on cars - where airbags have always recorded the use / conditions of the vehicle leading up to the pop...

 

[SnowMec]

Thank you for a comprehensive answer, but unfortunately I still haven't figured out what's going on. An older BMW motorcycle that has the troublesome servo-ABS can be repaired by eliminating the system. Then you get a motorcycle that works exactly like all motorcycles sold up until 1990 when BMW introduced ABS as an option. Even after 1990, ABS was an option on very few bikes, and eliminating ABS on a bike that has it only eliminates an option as I see it. My question is whether it is illegal or problematic (from an insurance point of view) to completely remove the ABS system on an older bike. If so, how can there be a button that you can turn off your ABS system with? Technically there are no differences.

 

[botus]

Thank you for a comprehensive answer, but unfortunately I still haven't figured out what's going on. An older BMW motorcycle that has the troublesome servo-ABS can be repaired by eliminating the system. Then you get a motorcycle that works exactly like all motorcycles sold up until 1990 when BMW introduced ABS as an option. Even after 1990, ABS was an option on very few bikes, and eliminating ABS on a bike that has it only eliminates an option as I see it. My question is whether it is illegal or problematic (from an insurance point of view) to completely remove the ABS system on an older bike. If so, how can there be a button that you can turn off your ABS system with? Technically there are no differences.

that's not 100% true - some suggest the rear master cyl is a different diameter - so whilst you could swap that to the same spec as the non ABS bikes and allegedly be the same - that is still not the legal answer / got us over the hurdle

Even when modified by experts and we inform an insurer - I don't believe that gets us there - and its where an (almost useless) Engineers report might give us some legal wriggle room....

The bike was manufactured with the specific equipment that individual bike came with - they don't just built what they like - they must prove the various systems, parts and operation meet legal requirements and then that spec is homologated for each specific market its sold in to (when first registered). So an ABS bike is one spec, and a non ABS is a different spec. Thus as first registered for use and sold into X market and warranted as such - the user got and the insurer covered the risk of a vehicle with a certain capability... Subsequent quotes and insurance is usually agreed with X safety kit as fitted for that VIN / Reg Number - once its modified - an insurer faced with large costs, or any police force in a bad mood, could come at you and you have no leg to stand on

why not send the very point to whitedalton solicitors and get their angle - they are very much bike focused and on their game re all the in and outs going on....

Motorcycle Accident Claims - White Dalton Motorcycle Solicitors

Motorcycle accident claims solicitors. No win no fee solicitors for motorcycle accident compensation claims. Change to us or use us from the start. 0800 783 6191. All our solicitors ride motorbikes.

www.whitedalton.co.uk

 

[SnowMec]

I'm still mystified. Can you legally eliminate ABS via a button? (as I always do) Can you eliminate the ABS , eliminating it by removing the system? Do you have to destroy an old motorbike in some countries when the ABS stops working or can you fix the problem by dismantling the ABS system?

 

[TLSgazza]

I'm still mystified. Can you legally eliminate ABS via a button? (as I always do) Can you eliminate the ABS , eliminating it by removing the system? Do you have to destroy an old motorbike in some countries when the ABS stops working or can you fix the problem by dismantling the ABS system?

I can't see a problem with turning it off if this function is fitted from new. If it is a problem the option shouldn't be there surely?
I think Mr Botus is overthinking this a little, like he does with many other things GS related.
My GS is the only bike I have with abs. (Servo too)
I can ride all my other bikes and have no problems with wheels locking up when I attempt to slow down. I don't think I have ever had my abs kick in whilst riding my GSA either except offroad in Iceland when I've forgotten to turn it off after a break.

 

[botus]

I'm still mystified. Can you legally eliminate ABS via a button? (as I always do) Can you eliminate the ABS , eliminating it by removing the system? Do you have to destroy an old motorbike in some countries when the ABS stops working or can you fix the problem by dismantling the ABS system?

I don't see a better answer than ask the specialised legal experts I suggested - and note it becomes irrelevant for vehicles made after 2012 where it is now illegal to remove ABS from vehicles made after that and use on public roads in the UK

check these bits from https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic-fatal-offences-and-bad-driving

“Dangerous” and “careless” driving​

Dangerous driving is defined by section 2A Road Traffic Act 1988 (RTA 1988). It is driving falling far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver,

are you a careful driver if you knowingly removed ABS ?

where it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in this way would be dangerous. It also includes driving where it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving the vehicle in its current state would be dangerous. “Dangerous” refers to danger either of injury to any person or of serious damage to property.

so if it was sold by BMW with ABS and you have no proof from BMW or an "Engineer of standing" that could shout down BMW in court.... how to you wriggle on this

"driving a vehicle knowing it has a dangerous defect or is poorly maintained"

my thoughts are irrelevant - its the court and or your insurer where you would need to convince them the red points above are irrelevant in your circumstance....

 

[Santa-2512]

I think some people are getting confused with the failure

Gen 1 is a Servo & ABS unit combined


ABS - Antilock Brake System

Servo - Servo assisted braking ( Similar to the type of brake system fitted to cars ) a lot of brake force controlled by the little lever / pedal

(if the servo fails its like trying to stop a moving car that's stalled !!) & there is no ABS function either


Gen 2 is an ABS unit only

Gen 1 generally suffers servo failure - which also stops the ABS from working

Gen 2 suffers ABS failure


Gen 1 hideously expensive to replace but can be bypassed to non servo & non ABS operation

Gen 2 can be fixed


ABS can be turned off on working units Gen 1 & 2 however the default setting is on

(its legal to turn it off for bikes, ( offroad riding) )


I just checked and on my 2016 model ABS can be turned off for offroad use

 

[SnowMec]

I'm not specifically thinking about BMW with "Servo-ABS", but about the problem of removing ABS on an older motorcycle. It is often the only option when a motorcycle has such a low value that it cannot be repaired for large sums. Until 2016 (when, according to an EC regulation, there was a requirement for ABS on motorcycles with more than 126 CC), ABS was an option. Repairing an old motorbike by correctly dismantling a non-functioning ABS system then makes it a motorbike without the optional ABS. This is what I would do if I had a BMW with servo ABS which is the strangest braking system I have worked with. I will also do that when the ABS stops working on my 2010 GSA and then get rid of the light linked front-to-rear brake. As I said, I turn off the ABS when driving, so the difference is that I don't have to turn it off manually when I have dismantled the system.

 

[botus]

by correctly dismantling a non-functioning ABS system then makes it a motorbike without the optional ABS.

No it does not - it makes it a modified vehicle - no longer complying with its original homologated construction and use stds that the vehicle was first resisted with (in this case for the UK Mkt)

Put your chassis number in to this system - https://www.mdecoder.com/ - it will clearly identify your vehicle was fitted with OEM ABS

when your insurer has to pay out x many thousands / millions, they will check - when its not there they will be within their rights to not pay out - and thus a claimant against you can get the court to sell your house to pay them.....

If the bike will not pass its emission stds that's it - you can't use on UK roads - you are in similar territory - but as with most forums you'll get lots of views from people that want an easy life and are not legal experts - ask

Motorcycle Accident Claims - White Dalton Motorcycle Solicitors

Motorcycle accident claims solicitors. No win no fee solicitors for motorcycle accident compensation claims. Change to us or use us from the start. 0800 783 6191. All our solicitors ride motorbikes.

www.whitedalton.co.uk

its 2010 (not 2012)
It’s not permissible to remove or disable the ABS from a vehicle first used on or after 1 January 2010. Not all vehicles first used on or after 1 January 2010 will have ABS, so the failure only applies where the system has obviously been removed.

For Cars these are MOT failures

Defect	Category
(a) Warning device not working	Major
(b) Warning device shows system malfunction	Major
(c) Wheel speed sensors missing or damaged	Major
(d) Wiring damaged	Major
(e) Other components missing or damaged	Major
(f) ABS system obviously removed	Major

 

[Steptoe]

BMW had no problem selling you a bike with servo brakes, that when they fail (as they will at some point) for knowingly selling you a vehicle with inadequate brakes that would fail an mot test, due to having, as BMW themselves say, in the handbook, residual braking, which is dangerous..
I wonder why BMW stopped using the servo/abs braking system.

What If BMW no longer supply a new replacement servo/abs modulator ?

 

[SnowMec]

No it does not - it makes it a modified vehicle - no longer complying with its original homologated construction and use stds that the vehicle was first resisted with (in this case for the UK Mkt)

Thanks. Then I actually got the answer I was looking for. Now I know that in some countries you are not allowed to modify an old motorcycle in any way and therefore you cannot dismantle a defective ABS system! If the replacement cost is too high or if there are no parts to buy for your old ABS system, you must scrap the bike.

 

[Greybeard]

Update - the bike has had its 'servoectomy' and is back on the road again and feels good (huzzah!), and the insurer has been formally told of the modification.

 

[MotoRevive]

There was a place called ECUsystems in Deeside, North Wales that could often repair them. They can't fix the electronics but they can fix the pumps So it depends what's up with it.

I recommend just to rip it out. Good riddance to a rubbish system. ABS is for sissies anyway

 

[Nin]

The pumps can be replaced with more resilient versions from a car, I did this for my K1300 a couple of years ago.

 

[Santa-2512]

Update - the bike has had its 'servoectomy' and is back on the road again and feels good (huzzah!), and the insurer has been formally told of the modification.

we told you that about 50 posts ago lol

Still, glad you got the bike back on the road

 

[abhi]

Was watching this thread to see if anything will come of it. I’ve just learnt to live with the flashing ABS light over the last couple of years. I think it will just have to be till the end of my stint with it.


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[DrFarkoff]

Was watching this thread to see if anything will come of it. I’ve just learnt to live with the flashing ABS light over the last couple of years. I think it will just have to be till the end of my stint with it.


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What bike / ABS Version do you have ??

You don;t have to live with it! besides what that Fuckwit BOTUS witters about IT really does talk some Schite!

You are doing nothing wrong by removing faulty ABS IF the motorcycle was available as a non ABS version!!!!!

 

[botus]

What bike / ABS Version do you have ??

You don;t have to live with it! besides what that Fuckwit BOTUS witters about IT really does talk some Schite!

You are doing nothing wrong by removing faulty ABS IF the motorcycle was available as a non ABS version!!!!!

you are misleading people - you need to stop talking rubbish

ABS vs non ABS are different vehicles as my posts make utterly clear

the law and your insurer will go the way I suggest - the simple choice is to resolve the problem, or an owner must get your insurer to agree in writing you made the bike less safe, and be prepared to counter charges by the plod in an nasty incident - and if post 2010 bike you don't have any choice - fix or stop using on uk roads