ABS V non-ABS

[JohnC]

It is weird how some people get so worked up over the ABS issue, particularly when anyone dares to be a heretic (in their view) and point out it's imperfections - they become very blinkered and refuse to standback and take a dispassionate viewpoint. I suspect that there is a big helping of cognitive dissonance going on, but I'm an Engineer not a psychologist so won't try to explain why.

Other side of the coin m8, gotta be done or you lot would still be burning witches. btw I think I'm passionate

 

[Engineer]

Lets play devils advocate

In my opinion the current ABS systems are a very good thing for the 'average' rider in average condtions - it is almost guaranteed to save him/her from a several serious accidents over their riding careers - However, I assert that this is only the case because the 'average' rider's ability is woefully inadequate.

One simple statistic show this to be the case - Motorcycle Roadcraft points out that the 'average' rider starting at the age of 17 will have had 8 accidents by the age of 35 - that is scary!

So if you are an 'average' rider ABS will probably save you (mostly from yourself) - I'm not an 'average' rider and for obvious reasons don't want to be one! (I have only had one small crash since 1976 - all my fault and ABS would not have helped).

So, the current ABS systems (even with their limitations) are a good thing for all you 'average' riders riding in 'average' conditions - but a working brain, common sense and some decent training will do far more for you than ABS ever will.


Discuss

 

[Fanum]

Lets play devils advocate

In my opinion the current ABS systems are a very good thing for the 'average' rider in average condtions - it is almost guaranteed to save him/her from a several serious accidents over their riding careers - However, I assert that this is only the case because the 'average' rider's ability is woefully inadequate.

One simple statistic show this to be the case - Motorcycle Roadcraft points out that the 'average' rider starting at the age of 17 will have had 8 accidents by the age of 35 - that is scary!

So if you are an 'average' rider ABS will probably save you (mostly from yourself) - I'm not an 'average' rider and for obvious reasons don't want to be one! (I have only had one small crash since 1976 - all my fault and ABS would not have helped).

So, the current ABS systems (even with their limitations) are a good thing for all you 'average' riders riding in 'average' conditions - but a working brain, common sense and some decent training will do far more for you than ABS ever will.


Discuss

We don't need to...the whole reason for this thread was to report that a waaay-above average ride, one Mr J.Witham, could not stop in a shorter distance on a non-abs bike even in ideal conditions with planning and being forewarned.

If he can't do it in those conditions, are you really claiming that you can, in general real life road conditions????

Do you really believe that????

 

[cookie]

The front A.N.D rear wheels (the round things) and ABS (the electronic trickery) work independently o.f e.a.c.h o.t.h.e.r, therefore you are talking U.T.T.E.R p1$h. Next.

as i said earlier, i've had the back lift & the ABS let the front go while the rear was still light.

i think we're all agreed that the ABS computer compares rotational speed of the front wheel reletive to the back so they are not entirely independant, but i think the back wheel will slow in the air not speed up. i think most people would have the back brake on in that situation so it would more or less stop so why does the front let go?

dunno, but it does

 

[Fanum]

so why does the front let go?

Had that too...I'm not sure 'cos I didn't have a camera down there but I rather suspect it's because the front trips over some gravel, a stone, or slips on a ripple, banding or similar....if it starts locking, or slows faster than the laws of physics that the 'brain' knows are possible for the disc and pads action, it decides it's a potential lock-up and releases for a tiny period of time.

Not pleasant, but it makes sense

 

[Engineer]

We don't need to...te whole reason for this thread was to report that a wa-above average ride, one Mr J.Witham, could not stop ina shorter distance on a non-abs bike even in ideal conditions with planning and being forewarned.

If he can't do it in those conditions, are you really claiming that you can, in general real life road conditions????

Do you really believe that????

No of course not - I'm sure that he can stop a bike much better than I ever could - but remember his summary, he ALSO said that ABS had limitations as soon as you add in a few bumps and were not braking in a straight line.

Apart from that you have missed the point of my post - what I am suggesting is that ABS is no panacea and that common sense, training and a working brain is a much better investment than ABS at saving lives.

 

[Fanum]

what I am suggesting is that ABS is no panacea and that common sense, training and a working brain is a much better investment than ABS at saving lives.

Better??

I'll have both thanks.....double me chances

No point in triggering a whole load more 'this or that happened to me' type posts, but ABS/Servo saved me, so AFAIC, it's vindicated.

Er, vindicated? Justified?? akk sod it, it's been a long day, you know what I mean, even if my internal thesaurus is on the blink

 

[JayGee]

Deaply?? Well you should certainly be 100% sure before you get so 'deaply' involved, so... some more sarcy comments for you it is then. I'll write (not think) even more s.l.o.w.l.y. The front A.N.D rear wheels (the round things) and ABS (the electronic trickery) work independently o.f e.a.c.h o.t.h.e.r, therefore you are talking U.T.T.E.R p1$h. Next.

Don't be a complete numpty, of course the front & rear ABS aren't completely independant, have you forgotten:-
1. The system is a linked brake system, so no independance there!
2. The ABS looks for a diffference between the rotation speed of front & rear wheel, did you think it was magic?

 

[Fanum]

Don't be a complete numpty, of course the front & rear ABS aren't completely independant, have you forgotten:-
1. The system is a linked brake system, so no independance there!
2. The ABS looks for a diffference between the rotation speed of front & rear wheel, did you think it was magic?

It's not as simple as that.

1.LINKED...yes, it is, on some models...mine is.

The 'LINKING' though refers to the action of the servo.....the front lever operates both front and rear servo circuits, the rear pedal only operates the rear servo and brake.

2. It does that, true, but it also has braking parameters in its brain..it knows how fast the wheel could possibly be decelerating, and if the change is more than it should be it decides it's lost or losing grip, and releases the brakes.

TBH I don't know if the wheel sensors are completely independant....I don't need to either......it works, I know its limitations and it's saved my skin.

 

[cookie]

Had that too...I'm not sure 'cos I didn't have a camera down there but I rather suspect it's because the front trips over some gravel, a stone, or slips on a ripple, banding or similar....if it starts locking, or slows faster than the laws of physics that the 'brain' knows are possible for the disc and pads action, it decides it's a potential lock-up and releases for a tiny period of time.

Not pleasant, but it makes sense

maybe, but it was a very grippy surface & i'm sure i'd have been safer with non ABS setup in that instance. it would ahve been a nice controlled stop.
trouble is, unlike a car system where the ABS cycles the brakes very fast so you always have brakes, the bmw bike system just releases the pressure for what seems like an age

bloody worrying at the time

 

[JayGee]

It's not as simple as that.

1.LINKED...yes, it is, on some models...mine is.

The 'LINKING' though refers to the action of the servo.....the front lever operates both front and rear servo circuits, the rear pedal only operates the rear servo and brake.

2. It does that, true, but it also has braking parameters in its brain..it knows how fast the wheel could possibly be decelerating, and if the change is more than it should be it decides it's lost or losing grip, and releases the brakes.

TBH I don't know if the wheel sensors are completely independant....I don't need to either......it works, I know its limitations and it's saved my skin.

Your right, I was just refuting JohnCs remarks that they were independant when they are blatantly not. When the rear lifts the front definitely lets go, I don't think it means the ABS is no good, it's just not as good as I would like. It's also a bit worrying when it happens.

 

[JohnC]

Don't be a complete numpty, of course the front & rear ABS aren't completely independant, have you forgotten:-
1. The system is a linked brake system, so no independance there!
2. The ABS looks for a diffference between the rotation speed of front & rear wheel, did you think it was magic?

hahahahahhahaha. Linked as in the front and rear (40% rear) force, not the ABS 'numpty' (oooooh, I'll get me mam oot fur the Jock slang ). 1. Get a brain, 2. start using it, end of. Next

 

[Engineer]

Better??

I'll have both thanks.....double me chances

No point in triggering a whole load more 'this or that happened to me' type posts, but ABS/Servo saved me, so AFAIC, it's vindicated.

Er, vindicated? Justified?? akk sod it, it's been a long day, you know what I mean, even if my internal thesaurus is on the blink

Well if it still doubles you chances then you must still be putting yourself into dangerous situations more than you should - either that or you are extremely unlucky! Either way - it works for you, so that has to be good.

 

[JohnC]

Hey, it's gonna rain soon. Get yer brolly out

 

[JohnC]

as i said earlier, i've had the back lift & the ABS let the front go while the rear was still light.

i think we're all agreed that the ABS computer compares rotational speed of the front wheel reletive to the back so they are not entirely independant, but i think the back wheel will slow in the air not speed up. i think most people would have the back brake on in that situation so it would more or less stop so why does the front let go?

dunno, but it does

Sorry, aint happening here. I can wheelie my 12 and stoppie it, so the (rotational difference??) ABS aint kickin in. Get it sorted m8. Now traction control, well that will sort out the men from the gimps who canny ride

 

[JohnC]

Your right, I was just refuting JohnCs remarks that they were independant when they are blatantly not. When the rear lifts the front definitely lets go, I don't think it means the ABS is no good, it's just not as good as I would like. It's also a bit worrying when it happens.

Good grief man. R.E.A.D tf post

 

[cookie]

Sorry, aint happening here. I can wheelie my 12 and stoppie it, so the (rotational difference??) ABS aint kickin in. Get it sorted m8. Now traction control, well that will sort out the men from the gimps who canny ride

but i don't have a 12



take more water with it.

 

[JohnC]

but i don't have a 12



take more water with it.

Ah, old technology m8 Still, I could do it on the 1100 anol, np

 

[JohnC]

No of course not - I'm sure that he can stop a bike much better than I ever could - but remember his summary, he ALSO said that ABS had limitations as soon as you add in a few bumps and were not braking in a straight line.

Apart from that you have missed the point of my post - what I am suggesting is that ABS is no panacea and that common sense, training and a working brain is a much better investment than ABS at saving lives.

He never said this from experience, nor from the TWO test in question. As I said earlier it was a hypothetical comment, not tested, or COULD YOU NOT READ my earlier POST

You seem to have a habit of selectively disregarding my comments. I wonder why?

Perhaps you're spending too much time watching the weather forcasts

 

[Engineer]

Better??

I'll have both thanks.....double me chances

No point in triggering a whole load more 'this or that happened to me' type posts, but ABS/Servo saved me, so AFAIC, it's vindicated.

Er, vindicated? Justified?? akk sod it, it's been a long day, you know what I mean, even if my internal thesaurus is on the blink

Better? - I mean in a shorter distance.