Adventure Supermoto

I have a strong suspicion the front wheel would be substantially lighter (two inches off the wheel diameter means that much less metal and 'flywheel effect'). But the rear wheel above, being an inch and a half wider than the GS alloy, would be that much heavier...
S'pose the only way to tell would be to break out the scales. :D



I understand that on UK and European GSs, the 'standard' fitment has always been alloy wheels.
Here in SA, it's always been the other way round: standard fitment is wire wheels - unless the customer specifies alloy wheels.
I almost never see the 'generation 1' ('04 to '08) GS alloys here - they are good looking wheels indeed. :) I sometimes see 'generation 2' ('09 to '13) GS alloys.

Here, very few people outside of motor racing circles know what a Supermoto is, and to the best of my current knowledge, only one other person has done a Supermoto conversion on a GSA...

ag, gaan kak in die mielie land :aidan
 
So now, I have two GSA supermotos in my garage... I've converted the Camhead as well. :bounce1

For this bike, I used a set of R1200RT wheels in original silver paint.
For being something which, overall, is substantially the same as my '09 Hexhead 'Moto, the two bikes feel very different indeed.

Some observations I can share at this point...
  1. My earlier statement that the GSA front-wheel axle spacer won't fit a 17" alloy was wrong. It seems that at some stage, someone fitted a non-standard grease seal to the left-hand side of the front wheel I used on the Hexhead. :eek:
  2. I also found out, quite by chance, that the lower A-arm fitted to the Hexhead is also from an R1200S (it's threaded for fitment of a steering damper). Looking at the two bikes side-by-side, one can see that the steering-head angle is steeper on the Camhead, which has it's original A-arm.
  3. My tyre choice for the Camhead was much less racy. I'm using a 120/70-17 Pilot Road 3 on the front and a part-worn 190/50-17 Pilot Road at the rear. Cold pressures are 2.5 Bar front, 2.9 Bar rear. This bike feels a lot more stable at low speed than the Hexhead. When the time comes to replace the rear, I'm going for a 180/55-17 Pilot Road 3. With a brand-new rear, I anticipate even greater things from the handling. (I am now also more-or-less completely convinced that a 190/55-17 Metzeler Racetec is not an ideal rear tyre for this conversion - the profile is simply too steep. I have very little choice on the Hexhead, though, as with the non-standard gearing and a 180/55-17 fitted, the ASC malfunctions.)
  4. I also found my personal best solution re. the front mudguard. :bounce1 I simply cut down the original mudguard, made sure the finish of the edges was 100%, and spaced it down towards the front tyre by about 40mm using appropriate spacers and longer 5mm screws. I plan on doing the same with the Hexhead.
  5. Don't think you'll be able to do this conversion and keep the standard exhaust silencer... it's simply too wide. Save a lot of grief: ditch the standard exhaust and go for the slimmest aftermarket silencer you fancy.
  6. With R1200R/RT/ST wheels, you don't need to 'shave' the inside edges of the front brake calipers as with as an R1200S front wheel.
  7. A tip for anyone thinking of using R1200S wheels: know that not all rears are 6" wide - the 'default' width is actually 5.5". The 6" wheel was a factory-mounted accessory.
I really can't understand why more of the faster riders don't do this conversion; it's actually very straightforward.

how many mm is the rear out of line?
 
how many mm is the rear out of line?

The man from Slaapstad! :P

That's a very good question, and I don't actually know the answer, but the RT wheel I'm using on the '10 is definitely off-centre. I would guess by at least 10mm, maybe more.
The funny thing is that I've tried to feel any sinister effects from it, and I can't.
The bike wobbles quite readily if I shake the bars at high speed, but then, the rear tyre IS squared off... it'll need replacement in 2 to 3 000 Km.

The K1200S rear wheel I'm using on the '09 seems to be perfectly aligned with the bike's centreline. Weird...
 
The man from Slaapstad! :P

That's a very good question, and I don't actually know the answer, but the RT wheel I'm using on the '10 is definitely off-centre. I would guess by at least 10mm, maybe more.
The funny thing is that I've tried to feel any sinister effects from it, and I can't.
The bike wobbles quite readily if I shake the bars at high speed, but then, the rear tyre IS squared off... it'll need replacement in 2 to 3 000 Km.

The K1200S rear wheel I'm using on the '09 seems to be perfectly aligned with the bike's centreline. Weird...

just shows how much play they have with tolerances. i have the R1200S rims and there is about 5-8mm off center to the left when standing behind the rear wheel. you will feel it at high speed braking hard, the bike pulls slightly to turn right, but "should" pull to the left :blast

post a pic of yours kakhuis ! :beerjug:
 
Should be a simple matter to fix it by machining the right depth of metal off the rim's hub interface - given a big-enough lathe! :pullface

Odd, though, how R-series rims won't fit properly on the 'wrong' R-series bike - but a K-series rear rim fits perfectly! There MUST be variations in driveshaft offset between the different models...
Maybe I should go back to my contacts and ask them if they won't swap out my rear R1200RT rim for a standard K1200R rear... :nenau

I'd love to post pics... but non-subscribers can't on this site.
Send me an E-mail addy. I'll fire some pix off to you. :thumb2
 
Should be a simple matter to fix it by machining the right depth of metal off the rim's hub interface - given a big-enough lathe! :pullface

Odd, though, how R-series rims won't fit properly on the 'wrong' R-series bike - but a K-series rear rim fits perfectly! There MUST be variations in driveshaft offset between the different models...
Maybe I should go back to my contacts and ask them if they won't swap out my rear R1200RT rim for a standard K1200R rear... :nenau

I'd love to post pics... but non-subscribers can't on this site.
Send me an E-mail addy. I'll fire some pix off to you. :thumb2

[email protected]
 
That's one email about to get spammed to death. :(

The handling changes is more likely due to the different steering geometry rather than wheel inertia. Wheel inertia has a minimal effect until much higher speeds than we do on normal roads.

On a "normal" front fork a smaller wheel makes minimal difference to the steering geometry. The angles change slightly but castor distance def gets shorter. The telelever uses the front swing arm to cancel out the tele fork dive. With a smaller wheel there is less distance from the ball joint to ground so there will be less counter- action of the fork dive effect caused by the tele legs.

Who knows what the numbers are but that's my take on why the smaller wheel feels different. A wider back tyre also affects the steering as it can cause the bike to lean more for a given cornering speed. Contact patch moves towards to turn side so bike has to lean more.
 
The handling changes is more likely due to the different steering geometry rather than wheel inertia. Wheel inertia has a minimal effect until much higher speeds than we do on normal roads.

On a "normal" front fork a smaller wheel makes minimal difference to the steering geometry. The angles change slightly but castor distance def gets shorter. The telelever uses the front swing arm to cancel out the tele fork dive. With a smaller wheel there is less distance from the ball joint to ground so there will be less counter- action of the fork dive effect caused by the tele legs.

Who knows what the numbers are but that's my take on why the smaller wheel feels different. A wider back tyre also affects the steering as it can cause the bike to lean more for a given cornering speed. Contact patch moves towards to turn side so bike has to lean more.

It's such a fascinating subject... to the extent that without being ironic, knowing now what I didn't know in high school, I would have studied in this direction with pleasure. :)

Without access to (most of) the requisite knowledge, a testing lab, and unlimited tyre resources, I can sadly only go as far as my current equipment and the feeling at the seat of my pants can take me. :(

The '09 originally came to me with a 110/80-19 Battlewing on a 19" front alloy, and a 180/55-17 PR3 on a K1200S rear wheel. (Slow steering, but very calm and confidence-inspiring... never felt like it was up to anything sinister and flat-out refused to shake it's head.)

Next, I exchanged the 180/55-17 for a part-worn 190/55-17 Pirelli Diablo Supercorsa on a different K1200S rim (an experiment - successful, as it turned out - to stop the ASC malfunction which was plaguing the bike at the time). For a very slight loss of overall stability, the bike's turn-in became much quicker.

Next came a part-worn 190/55-17 Metzeler Racetec K2 on the original K1200S rim. And here I learned how subtle the changes caused by even two tyres in the same size, but made by different manufacturers. The Racetec gave even quicker steering, but lost a little more stability.

Then I took the plunge. With all else as-was, I ditched the 19" front and replaced it with an R1200S front wheel, using a part-worn 120/70-17 Pirelli Dragon Supercorsa Pro.
I didn't like the handling at all in the beginning. Low-speed turn-in, especially at high steering angles (such as parking-lot situations) and even turn-ins at suburban speeds, felt too quick and 'forceful', like the bike had a mind of it's own and wanted to double the steering input I was giving.

But the faster I went, the better it got. At freeway speeds, the bike felt much 'nimbler' and lighter on it's feet. It was possible to change direction more quickly, with less effort.

It took quite a lot of experimentation to get the balance right. Cold pressures had to go down from 2.5 Bar front and 2.9 Bar rear to 2.3 front, 2.7 rear. ESA preload was previously set to rider + pillion; I had to bring it down to 'single rider'.
Since I can't practically go down to a 190/50-17 (unless some kind soul would like to help out with a final-drive swap), I'm still curious to see if I can claw back the last of the lost stability (while retaining the quicker steering) by exchanging the Racetec for a milder, more touring-oriented tyre like a Pilot Road 2 or Pilot Road 3 (still in 190/55-17).

Even before I got the Camhead, my mind was made up: I had to go Supermoto with this one, too. I still have the original wheels, but for some variety, I left the bike more-or-less completely standard, and used R1200RT rims. The front tyre is a 120/70-17 Pilot Road 3, the rear a part-worn 190/50-17 Pilot Road. (It's already partly squared-off, but I plan to use it until it reaches it's treadwear indicators, after which it will be replaced by a 180/55-17 Pilot Road 2 or Pilot Road 3.) Current cold pressures on the Camhead are 2.4 Bar front, 2.8 Bar rear. ESA settings are the same as the Hexhead.

The Camhead feels very different to the Hexhead. It has none of the low-speed stability issues the Hexhead had - I suspect this is due to the lower profile of the existing rear tyre.
However, at higher speeds, it wants to weave and shake it's head - which I suspect is being caused by the rear squaring off.
Also, the rear RT rim is aligned too far to the left of the Camhead's centre line - by at least 10mm, maybe more! :eek: I want to fix this - possibly by having the mating face of the wheel machined down to suit.
 
Poor photos but this is a F800st front guard fitted using four 48mm stainless steel p clips ( yes I know the brakes calipers aren't fitted it was a test fit)
 

Attachments

  • 010.jpg
    010.jpg
    146.5 KB · Views: 531
  • 014.jpg
    014.jpg
    170.6 KB · Views: 542
  • 011.jpg
    011.jpg
    94.1 KB · Views: 536
  • 012.jpg
    012.jpg
    89.1 KB · Views: 541
Spot on! :thumb2 That's exactly the setup the fellow from Boksburg here is running on his yellow Camhead. Good-looking... :D

Neil, are those 320mm (R1200R/RT/S/ST) brake discs?
Unless you want to fabricate adaptor plates to move the calipers further from the wheel hub, you're going to have to remove them and fit the GS front discs...
 
Yes they are the larger discs from the rt, they came with the wheels.
When I tried out the wheels I had the gs discs fitted then put them back onto the wires.
This was just a mock up for the mudguard. I intend to sort out the rear wheel alignment before I have the wheels refinished in either satin or gloss black before I put them on for next summer.
I am not happy about machining the rear rt rim as it will leave it too thin on the mounting flanges for safety .
I need to have a good look at a 5.5 rear k1200gt wheel to see if there is a difference in the offsets or the other alternative is to look at a F800st rear rim to see what the PCD ,centre bore and offset is
 
Yes they are the larger discs from the rt, they came with the wheels.
When I tried out the wheels I had the gs discs fitted then put them back onto the wires.
This was just a mock up for the mudguard. I intend to sort out the rear wheel alignment before I have the wheels refinished in either satin or gloss black before I put them on for next summer.
I am not happy about machining the rear rt rim as it will leave it too thin on the mounting flanges for safety .
I need to have a good look at a 5.5 rear k1200gt wheel to see if there is a difference in the offsets or the other alternative is to look at a F800st rear rim to see what the PCD ,centre bore and offset is

The guy I got in touch with first here in SA also re-finished his wheels... he did them in a medium grey. Almost like the charcoal-grey wheels you'd find on the old Volvo 850Rs, but a couple of shades lighter and with a matt finish.
Rarely have I seen a pair of wheels looking that good... and brake dust is invisible on them. :thumb

When you have a squizz at the GT rear wheel, won't you post the results? :beerjug:
I've been meaning to do the same, but although my parts contact has 3 or 4 pairs of R-RT/ST wheels, he has no K-R/GT wheels available.

I also currently have an F800ST I'm trying to sell. I tried doing a quick test-fit of that rear wheel to a GSA, and failed miserably. The PCD, centre bore and flange offset are all completely different.

I think that given the relative abundance of R-series wheels, trying to modify an F-series wheel would be too uneconomical. I'd also have doubts about the load- and power-handling capabilities of an F-series wheel mounted to an R-series motorcycle...
 
Re the f800st wheel it would be very simple to get a hubcentric spacer machined up that bolts permanently onto the drive hub and the wheel bolts onto the spacer BUT I'm not sure of the extra stresses it might put into the rear hub on cornering due to the greater offset of the 800 wheel and weight of the spacer in comparison with the rt wheel.
I've used hubcentrics on cars with no problems over the years but they have different cornering forces.
 
powdercoating the wheels anthracite is a good dea, my old a4 had the wheels that colour and never looked dirty
 
Re the f800st wheel it would be very simple to get a hubcentric spacer machined up that bolts permanently onto the drive hub and the wheel bolts onto the spacer

I'd certainly be keen to experiment in that direction... if I had access to a decent-sized lathe/milling machine, I'd do the machining myself. :) But show one of the local engineering works here a one-off job like that, and they'll just give you a filthy look.

I think the implication is: "Bring me a contract for two hundred of those jobs a month... and I'll think about it".

Sometimes, one can push impecunious enthusiasm only so far before having to take the path of less resistance... :nenau

I think that stress due to greater offset would actually be more of a factor when using an R1200RT wheel. ;) It certainly wouldn't affect the final drive unit - presumably, the spacer would machined in a way that would allow the wheel to run perfectly straight in relation to the bike's centre line, meaning that torsional forces acting on the FD hub mating face would be no different to a standard wheel.
The same goes for the (unmodified) wheel itself.
You'd need to put some thought into the spacer itself... but since that would consist of a very formidable chunk of aluminium alloy indeed, held in place by high-tensile fasteners, I really don't see much to worry about.

If you're worried about the wheel bolts pulling out of aluminium threads, you could tap the spacer's wheel-bolt threads 2mm larger, and use steel Helicoil inserts...
 
I'm surprised the wheel bolt pitch centres different between the RT and GS final drives?

If they are the same, get plate laser cut and have it turned to create a flange and rebate to align with the FD drive flange and wheel. Longer wheel bolts will hold it in place.
 
No the pcd , centre bore etc of the 5 stud 1200's are all the same, it is the f800st wheel that has a different pcd and centre bore but is still a similar pattern and is a 5.5x17
 
Just looking and the rt wheel it is a 44mm offset, I will give Motorworks a ring next week and get them to check a k1200gt wheel to see what its offset is.
 
Apparently the k1200gt series rear wheel has a 39mm offset which should mean on the R series it moves the wheel 5mm over to the offside.
Going to double check if this is enough for what I need
 
Double checked everything, the standard 1200gs alloys are a 4.00x17 with a 32 mm offset which appears to run on centre.
The r1200rt rear wheel is a 5.5x17 rim with a 44 mm offset , on the gsa it runs 6mm offset to the nearside (left).
If it is correct that the k1200gt rim a 5.5x17 has a 39mm offset then it will actually be worse , on the gsa it will be running 11mm offset to the nearside.
 


Back
Top Bottom