Am I just too stupid to start the engine correctly???

[jogo]

Hi,
as I am obviously not able to understand it on my own (even I tried hard ) I'd appreciate very much your help:

The bike:
2005 R12GS with servo ABS. All the electrical system is as it came from the factory, I just recently replaced the side stand switch hoping it would solve my problem (which it did not) and have replaced the original battery a while ago. Gear indicator works perfectly all the time.

This is what happens say every 5th to 10th time when I try to start the engine:
I turn the key, the film runs through on the display with not indicating any error. I hit the start button and noting happens, not even a "klick".
I then turn the key back and into start position again, wait for the film to complete, hit the button and the engine usually starts (once ore twice I had to do this 2 times).
It has been like this for quite a while, I actually can not remember when it happened first time.

YES, I KNOW THAT THE SIDE STAND HAS TO BE UP WHEN GEARBOX IS NOT IN "N"

This is how I usually start:
- Clutch disengaged.
- Side-stand up.
- Bike on midstand or on its wheels.
- Brake levers not touched.

So far I have not managed to find a pattern that would help me understand what happens.
During the last days I pulled the brake lever before turning the key and holding it until the engine runs. And the issue has not occurred since, however this might be just be accidentally.
If this is how to do it, please be kindly explain to my why.

Basically to turn the key twice to get the engine running is not a big deal, I know. However, as long as I do not understand why the starter does not work on the first try, I always have the uncomfortable feeling of not knowing if I'll get it running. I just do not find the imagination of standing in a dark, cold and windy night far away from home with the engine not starting at all particularly appealing.

If I am just too stupid to do it right, please enlighten me

Thanks in advance!

Joerg

 

[Andy_E]

It's not completely clear from your post but are you trying to start with the bike in gear?

I think (but I'm not sure of this without trying it on my bike) that if the bike is in gear when you turn the ignition on it needs to sense you pulling in the clutch lever before it will start.

In other words:

Turn key then pull in clutch level - bike will start

Pull in clutch lever then turn key - bike will not start

Worth a try?

 

[LiquidLAN]

It's not completely clear from your post but are you trying to start with the bike in gear?

I think (but I'm not sure of this without trying it on my bike) that if the bike is in gear when you turn the ignition on it needs to sense you pulling in the clutch lever before it will start.

In other words:

Turn key then pull in clutch level - bike will start

Pull in clutch lever then turn key - bike will not start

Worth a try?

they do have problems with the clutch switch, it seems mine broken and I never found out until the gear indicator went. with mine since it wasnt able to "see" neutral or bypass it with the clutch in it wouldnt start at all

best bet always start in neutral

the other thing I've had fail is the ignition barrel - mine wouldnt turn off, something broken between the bit you put your key in and the actual switch gear at the bottom. From whats described above I dont think it's the same problem, but maybe the ignition isnt engaging far enough???

have you checked your kill switch? it doesnt sound like it set to off, but maybe its developing a fault?

do you have any other issues with the bike? does it cut out for no reason? are all the other electrics functioning?

 

[jogo]

Thank you very much for the quick replies!!
Here the answers to the questions raised:

Usually I have the gearbox in "N" when starting but not always I guess. However, the error I reported also occurred with gear in "N".

I have not checked the kill-switch (have actually never used it). I'll check it, but if there would be something wrong with it I would expect to see the engine cut-out ever now and then, am I wrong?

I have never experienced engine cut out with that bike, beside that it did not start when the ring antenna went. That should not be linked anyway.

I do not see strange things happen on the display or with the electrical system at all.

I never thought about the ignition barrel, but take a look if there is access to it. I am afraid, to prevent theft they may have made it impossible to just do a quick check.

Do these bike really have a switch for the clutch? That idea never crossed my mind, what is it for?

In that case Andy's advice:

Turn key then pull in clutch level - bike will start
Pull in clutch lever then turn key - bike will not start
​

might be the solution. I never thought about when I pull the clutch, I just have it pulled when hitting the button.

Joerg

 

[WiiMW]

The clutch switch forces you to have the clutch disengaged when you hit the starter .. it's a safety thing

If it is in gear you won't lurch forward ... (sidestand up)
it will also put slightly less load on the starter.

 

[chrishb4]

Just an aside.......I'm glad this forum isn't from Norway.....I don't think I could have written all that fault info in Norwegian!!

 

[st247]

The clutch switch forces you to have the clutch disengaged when you hit the starter .. it's a safety thing

If it is in gear you won't lurch forward ... (sidestand up)
it will also put slightly less load on the starter.

The clutch switch is there so you can start in gear, but you have to have the clutch pulled in (disengaged). I start mine in N without pulling in the clutch lever (engaged)

Just a thought but i had a similar failure to start on mine (although permanent rather than intermitent). Have a quick check of this thread, it's an easy check to do. It may also be a loose wire in the starter motor, also an easy check.

 

[LiquidLAN]

The clutch switch is there so you can start in gear, but you have to have the clutch pulled in (disengaged). I start mine in N without pulling in the clutch lever (engaged)

Just a thought but i had a similar failure to start on mine (although permanent rather than intermitent). Have a quick check of this thread, it's an easy check to do. It may also be a loose wire in the starter motor, also an easy check.

yep, the clutch is only an issue if you are trying to start in gear, starting in neutral all you should need to do is key in switch on

following on from this thread above, its probably also worth checking your battery connections, make sure everything is clean and tight.

if you can it might also be worth having a look at the starter switch, maybe that just needs cleaning up - I don't know how easy it is to check them, but having recently taken on apart on a WR450 I'm amazed how simple they are.

basically I'm now guessing - it sounds like you are doing the right thing when you try to start it but you have an intermittant fault that needs finding and fixing before it gets worse.

 

[tonkatoy]

I've had a problem like this if I didn't hit the start button straight away after turning the ignition on. For example, fill up with petrol, turn the ignition on, reset all of the computer info, get on the bike push it off the stand, hit the start button - nothing. Ignition off, ignition on, starts ok.

I certainly don't have the problem with starting in general. As long as I turn the ignition on and wait for the routine to complete it always starts ok. It just seems to be the delay between ignition on and hitting the start button that causes the problem, maybe there's something in the electronics that disables start after something like 30 seconds for some reason.

 

[ts2]

Mine has a dodgy gear position indicator meaning I always have to pull the clutch in to start. There are occasions when I've tried to start and got no response. All I've had to do then was to let the clutch out, then pull it back in again.

From the posts above I've probably pulled the lever in too early in the startup checks, but TBH I've not thought about why it happens I just found that it works (before this I'd been turning the ignition on and off). Of course this wont help if you're starting in Neutral (and your bike believes that you're in Neutral).

TobyS

 

[LiquidLAN]

yep, I've had this happen, agreed it seems to be that the system sees the clutch in at start up and must see it as a fault and ignore it - clutch out and in seems to clear that and allow you to hit the start button.

not sure I agree with tonka though, it doesnt sound right for the system to shut out the starter a period of time after ignition on... what happens if you stall it? I'd not want to have to ignition off, on and pause while everything tests and resets. I'm not disagreeing with what you've seen, just that it doesnt sound like the right way for things to operate.

 

[kKop]

I had the same problem last year (although not as frequently) on my 2007 GSA. Dealer replaced the EWS (the ring antenna), haven't had it reoccur since.

 

[jogo]

Hi,
I have done most of the checks on the bike that were recommended here without finding anything wrong. All cables, contacts, the starter relays seem to be in perfectly good condition.
I have not pulled the switches on the right hand side of the handle bar (kill switch, starter button) apart as I was afraid to break something.
Overall I tend to believe that my bike might be less likely to have problems from water ingress. Even I don't mind riding in the rain (and have done so quite a bit) I never apply high pressure wash, don't ride in winter, haven't dropped it in a river yet and park it in my dry garage when at home.

It might really be that I just pulled the clutch at the wrong moment ever now and then, not being aware that is has a switch fitted that gets monitored.

I'll now do the start procedure very carefully to get reproduce able results and hope this will solve it.

Thanks very much to all who have taken the time to share thoughts and experience in order to help me out.

Joerg

 

[(RIP) Mark H]

Follow this method and you cant go wrong

Starting Sequence

Upon switching on the engine master toggle, the starter circuits are livened via two control relays in the Spine section. These relays divert 28Volts via the control boxes, to energise the starter push buttons in the cockpit.

Upon pressing the relevant starter push button, 28V is fed via the contacts of the starter over speed switch, and via the relevant pins in the control box, to energise the time switch relay, via high and low pressure switches.

Energising the time switch relay in the relevant control box starts the time switch and DC motor in the control box, controlling the following timed start sequence.

The pump unit contactors are energised to start the AVPIN pumps, during which time a HP solenoid is de-energised, diverting AVPIN fluid back to the storage tank rather than to the starter motors, to allow pumped air into the starters and purge the combustion chamber.

At a pre-determined time, controlled by the control boxes, the HP solenoid is livened, to allow AVPIN fluid to be pumped through a low-pressure switch to the starter motor. Once fluid pressure in the supply pipe reaches the correct pressure, the low pressure switch contacts swap from pins A-B to pins A-C, directing 28V to the HF ignition circuits, and thus supplying ignition to the starter motors. Backpressure from the starter combustion chambers, then activates via HP switches, the high energy ignition circuits, allowing the engines to run up to speed. Once satisfactory engine speed is reached, an over speed switch on the starter motor operates, to disengage the starter and re-set the time sequence switch in the engine control box, ready for the next start.