another great idea

[Ian J Hartley]

The two pin blue connector is used for the Alarm when fitted. It has a locking tab, so it clips on to the headstock group of connectors. It sits in the middle bottom, with the big 12 way on top.

On my bike looking forward from left to right the connectors are:

Black 6 way. ------------12 way. -------------- Grey 8 way
Orange 8 way.---------Blue 2 way.------------ White( translucent) 12 way

The single connector with the green wire might be for the old Denso Generator (Alternator) but I'm not sure. I take it your alternator is a Bosch, so it uses a different circuit.

However, You will find that the green wire will be powered when ignition is on so make sure the connector is stowed safely.

 

[what have i done]

Cheers guys.. at least the two "spare "cables are spare not something I missed. Surely if my HES was duff I wouldn't get a spark... and I do now have a healthy spark at least when I use the starter.. just not by hand.

I have tugged and pulled the initially suspect plug to the coil and I always get a reliable feed to it..

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[Ian J Hartley]

If you are cranking her over, and she's not starting, given that you say you have a spark and fuel, then when you take a plug out it should be wet with fuel, and you should be able to smell the unburnt fuel.

The conventional way to check you have good fuel flow, is to pull one of the injectors from the throttle body and place it in a plastic bag or bottle and crank the bike over, you should see a strong pulse of fuel sprayed from the injector and it should atomise.

Just because the pump runs and primes, does not necessarily mean you have the correct fuel pressure, or any fuel pressure for that matter. The pump runs and stops as a result of motronic control. It doesn't stop because of fuel pressure. In fact the system has no way of telling if the fuel is at the correct pressure

Try disconnecting the fuel tank return line at your Quick disconnect and see if the bike starts. Disconnecting this line will prevent the fuel pressure regulator from regulating the fuel pressure in the fuel manifold, and should give you full pump pressure. It's a long shot, but if you are low on fuel pressure, you will never have enough fuel to get your correct fuel air ratio and the bike will not run (too lean) but your occasional back fire might be due to the accumulation of unburnt fuel.

 

[what have i done]

It is a gokd point you make. infact whilst sheltering the showers today in work i was wondering if i could adapt by plumbing pressure tester to see if my fuel pump is delivering as it should. ( i can see the injector passing fuel but my plugs are never wet... and i am pretty well practiced at getting them out quickly now)I will try your way first.

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[west coast traveller]

If you are cranking her over, and she's not starting, given that you say you have a spark and fuel, then when you take a plug out it should be wet with fuel, and you should be able to smell the unburnt fuel.

The conventional way to check you have good fuel flow, is to pull one of the injectors from the throttle body and place it in a plastic bag or bottle and crank the bike over, you should see a strong pulse of fuel sprayed from the injector and it should atomise.

Just because the pump runs and primes, does not necessarily mean you have the correct fuel pressure, or any fuel pressure for that matter. The pump runs and stops as a result of motronic control. It doesn't stop because of fuel pressure. In fact the system has no way of telling if the fuel is at the correct pressure

Try disconnecting the fuel tank return line at your Quick disconnect and see if the bike starts. Disconnecting this line will prevent the fuel pressure regulator from regulating the fuel pressure in the fuel manifold, and should give you full pump pressure. It's a long shot, but if you are low on fuel pressure, you will never have enough fuel to get your correct fuel air ratio and the bike will not run (too lean) but your occasional back fire might be due to the accumulation of unburnt fuel.

+1. If you don't want to disconnect return pipe, use some mole grips or clamp to compress the tube. I tried all sorts trying to get mine running. The 30 second check above showed it was a knackered pressure regulator.

 

[what have i done]

I disconnected the return last night. Without any discernible difference (except making the pump a bit louder)
I didn't post this as I image people are fed up of me posting every time I blow my nose or something
my initial instincts were a fuel problem.. but since it wont run on "aerostart" it led me to explore mechanical/timing issues.. but my plugs are always dry .. so perhaps its a combination of the two?

I should maybe add that whilst I am positive that the front pipe coming out of the tank is the flow.. I don't know which is which going to the regulator.. . my default position is where the pump is quietest.. Which is where the pipes naturally position themselves.. But I always test with the position alternated when I eventually get it going I will alternated the QD' s to avoid confusion in the future

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[Ian J Hartley]

I think you would have to work hard to get the plumbing to the regulator wrong.
The pipes would be crossed over.

For reference:-

The top pipe is the fuel return to the tank.
The middle pipe is the right injector
The bottom pipe is the pressure feed from fuel pump out.

 

[what have i done]

I tend to agree.. But I have managed to send hours rebuilding a bike which won't run more than likely as a result of something I have done wrong. So I am checking everything... again ... and again

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[what have i done]

I haven't had much time to work on the bike today I did manage to make a lock pin.. it was quite easy to work out the sizes using an assortment he keys and drill bits. But between my 100 yr old lathe not being that accurate and my lack of skill I had to shim it .. ok I wrapped a bit of tape around it . Anyway it's a lovely fit now.
But I have tried in vain to get any results from the following HES test
Pin 4 to + on 9v battery
Pin 3 to - on 9v battery
Pin 5 to positive on voltmeter
Negative lead on meter to negative on 9v battery..

I am not making much progress on the bike but on the upside I am learning how to use my meter.. and I certainly need practice on my lathe.

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[flatdog]

This is a seriously bogged down in the detail thread.
Back to basics.
Have you established that your valve timing is correct? check yes/no
Have you got spark at the plugs yes/no
Do you have fuel atomising at the injectors yes/no
If you have all of the above confirmed then it will start.
Stop over analysing and establish real facts.

If you believe the timings correct and you have spark then it will run on either quick start or fuel,

Spray or use to determine.

its not difficult


the end

If you haven't checked these again then look no further.

 

[what have i done]

Thanks flatdog ,, I totally agree except that

My valve timing has not altered
I have a good spark
The fuel is atomizing

Bike wont start.. honest.

 

[tanneman]

Check that your spark is not firing on the wrong stroke ie exhaust and not compression. I don't think you can plug the hall sensor in wrongly but maybe the ignition cables are swapped or the coil is mounted wrong way around.

 

[what have i done]

Another frustrating night in the garage.. a mate of mine (mechanic) called with his strobe light and oscilloscope.!!?? "Get the kettle on I will have it going before your back" he's just left .. bike not started. I will spare you the mind numbing tests.

But yes we have a spark
Yes we have fuel


What is puzzling him and those he phoned ( He works in the local collage motor vehicle dept)
Is why we can't get a spark when hand turning the engine?

We have the HES off the bike now and can't seem to induce an ignition pulse.. but . He is suggesting that the switch is faulty but has no proper answer why I get a reliable spark when cranking... unless somehow the fuel pulse is energizing it somehow.. I am unconvinced. certainly not convinced enough to fork out almost 200 quid to prove it.. . Not without a bit of invasive testing..
Nightmare.



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[Ian J Hartley]

I take it you are familiar with these two useful links:-

The first deals primarily with replacing the hall sensors, but covers the fundimentals of how to test them.

http://users.rcn.com/dehager/service/oilhead_hall_sensors.pdf

The second deals with how to build a small test box to test the sensor.

http://users.rcn.com/dehager/service/oilhead_timing_box.pdf

 

[symphonetix]

Hi, sounds like your having a bit of a nightmare. I had a similar problem with my old 1100gs and found a doc online that helped me sort it out. It's a step by step procedure to solve a non starting problem with info on how to check various things. So good that I copied into word and printed A5 size and laminated and keep a copy in my toolbox for " on the road". If you message me your email I will send you it as a PDF file. Might get you sorted. Cheers. Martyn

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[what have i done]

Thanks Martyn I sent you a message.. just realised I forgot to include my email I will send it now.

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[Hay Ewe]

if you have that much effort in to it, I am going with the suggestion above that the spark / fuel injection / valve sequence is some how mixed up.
The 1150's have a wasted spark - it sparks at every TDC - so that shouldn't stop it, so some how I am wondering if the fuel injection is squirting when the exhaust valves are open - and therefore no compression.

I have no idea how could happen, I shall think and wonder about it but if its all there - the sequence must be wrong.

Back to basics. Check the simple (and cheap) things first and as you eliminate those, the cost goes up

 

[what have i done]

It feels sounds like my valve timing is out. And my spark is about 50 degrees after OT which sounds wrong? . BUT my timing chain hasn't been off my flywheel hasn't been off. If it is a fueling problem most agree it would start on autostart.. if things don't start on autostart it's usually a mechanical problem. (Or timing)
Moving the HES WHILST cranking didn't enable us to get a spark before OT. . . which is leading us to believe either the chain has jumped or the HES picking up a signal from the wrong source.. both seem a bit unlikely to me.. .
Tonight (whilst waiting for my new HES) I will be doing a fuel system pressure test. Despite the fact I can see both injector doing their thing.
I am beyond the stage that because things look like they are working they must be fine. Everything is being tested.. . Again .
Thanks for the continued support

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[Steptoe]

It feels sounds like my valve timing is out. And my spark is about 50 degrees after OT which sounds wrong? . BUT my timing chain hasn't been off my flywheel hasn't been off. If it is a fueling problem most agree it would start on autostart.. if things don't start on autostart it's usually a mechanical problem. (Or timing)
Moving the HES WHILST cranking didn't enable us to get a spark before OT. . . which is leading us to believe either the chain has jumped or the HES picking up a signal from the wrong source.. both seem a bit unlikely to me.. .
Tonight (whilst waiting for my new HES) I will be doing a fuel system pressure test. Despite the fact I can see both injector doing their thing.
I am beyond the stage that because things look like they are working they must be fine. Everything is being tested.. . Again .
Thanks for the continued support

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Your diagnoses approach is all a bit desperate and scatter gun..

 

[Hay Ewe]

I just scrolled through the whole thread and checked the photographs.
I did not see any that show the cylinders removed, therefore the timing chains not moved from the crank / cam shafts.
Unless you did work that you did not take pictures for and only wrote about, then it looks to me as though the cam / crank / valve timing has not changed from when the entered maintenance.

If you are getting a spark thats good - and we know that these engines are wasted spark.

It takes three things to get an engine to work - Fuel (which you are getting) Spark (which you are getting)
What about air? problem is that the valve timing does not appear to have changed.

MMM, what would I do?
I know that my bike runs and so I would, remove the spark plugs from both sides and the front cover off, insert the blade in to the cylinder so it rests against the piston. Turn the engine by hand until the piston is at TDC and see what the valves are like. If they are tight then turn the engine again so that the piston for that side is at TDC and the valves should have a little bit of slack - just like when you are chekcing the valve clearances.

now, look through the timing hole on the side and see where the marker tab is. That should show up in the hole. Check your manual to see what it is supposed to look like. (I cant get to mine right now)
Now repeat for the other side.
This will confirm the valve timing is correct or not.

Next is to see what the HES position is when the pistons are at TDC and is that orientated correctly.
I cant get to my bike right now, maybe tomorrow and I shall take some pics (but cant promise anything).

After that, I have to agree with Steptoe, your trouble shooting has been a bit of a scatter gun.

Remember the basics - Suck Squeeze Bang Blow. Its a simple engine really - just like all of them.

It MAY help to take the front cover off and the pulley wheel and take a picture of the HES - somebody might spot a simple error