Battery drain problem

[bilby-2007]

Hi All,
I have recently acquired an '05 R1200GS with 50K on the clock. It came with a Deka AGM battery, which is dropping from fully charged to about 4.7Volts after 4 to 5 days parked in the garage. I notice that as I connect the ground cable onto the battery, there is a small spark which is little larger than I expected. When I test this gap with my Fluke digital meter, it registers no current flow. I suspect there is a drain on the battery, but cannot find where it might be comming from. Has anyone had a similar experience? Thanks for any suggestions you can offer.

 

[Owen Snell]

Hi All,
I have recently acquired an '05 R1200GS with 50K on the clock. It came with a Deka AGM battery, which is dropping from fully charged to about 4.7Volts after 4 to 5 days parked in the garage. I notice that as I connect the ground cable onto the battery, there is a small spark which is little larger than I expected. When I test this gap with my Fluke digital meter, it registers no current flow. I suspect there is a drain on the battery, but cannot find where it might be comming from. Has anyone had a similar experience? Thanks for any suggestions you can offer.

If you're worried that the battery is discharging through a faulty circuit, leave it for a few days with one terminal disconnected and then see if you have the same problem. It sounds more like a failed battery, as 4.7 V is pretty low for such a short period of time, even if there is a small current draw from an alarm or other device fitted.

 

[bilby-2007]

If you're worried that the battery is discharging through a faulty circuit, leave it for a few days with one terminal disconnected and then see if you have the same problem. It sounds more like a failed battery, as 4.7 V is pretty low for such a short period of time, even if there is a small current draw from an alarm or other device fitted.

Thanks for your prompt reply Owen. I am presently doing what you have suggested, but I find it hard to explain what I feel is a relatively large spark as I touch the ground cable to the -ve battery pole. If I touch the cable on and off, I get the same size spark each time, which suggests there is a reasonable current flow there. I don't have any non-standard accessories fitted to the bike.

 

[RickG]

feel is a relatively large spark as I touch the ground cable to the -ve battery pole. If I touch the cable on and off, I get the same size spark each time, which suggests there is a reasonable current flow there. I don't have any non-standard accessories fitted to the bike.

The ECU draws some juice even with the ignition off so a spark is completely normal. I'm surprised you couldn't measure the current with your meter. Are you sure you had it on the right scale and the leads configured correctly? It's common to have to switch the red lead into another socket on the Fluke to measure Amps

I'd also suggest you have a duff battery that is is discharging itself. The test suggested by Owen will help confirm this.

 

[bilby-2007]

The ECU draws some juice even with the ignition off so a spark is completely normal. I'm surprised you couldn't measure the current with your meter. Are you sure you had it on the right scale and the leads configured correctly? It's common to have to switch the red lead into another socket on the Fluke to measure Amps

I'd also suggest you have a duff battery that is is discharging itself. The test suggested by Owen will help confirm this.

Thanks Rick, Your first sentence is what I was hoping to hear. I didn't know what the normal, ignition off, current draw would be. I just didn't expect it to be enough to cause a very clearly visible spark on every tap on the -ve pole. Yes, I am at a loss to explain why I cannot read any current flow. I have already checked the scale, and swapped the red lead to the mA terminal on the Fluke. I would like to try a moving coil ammeter, rather than the digital Fluke, as sometimes you can see the small transient deflections on the needle which don't register on the digital display. I am sort of hoping it IS a crook battery, as I hate to think of how I would find a leak somewhere in the CAN Bus system. Regards, Bill

 

[RickG]

Ok, I've just measured mine. It's 120mA which lasts for about 5 seconds before it shuts the system down to give zero current. There's a faint click like a relay or something up in the instruments as you apply the power each time.

I've not got an alarm or any other stuff fitted.

Hope that helps.

 

[Owen Snell]

The ECU draws some juice even with the ignition off so a spark is completely normal...

Sorry, I didn't answer this part, but Rick has done here. I have never reconnected a battery on a car or bike without a small spark being generated when fitting the negative cable (always positive first).

I would not worry about this, it does sound like a dud battery!

 

[bilby-2007]

Sorry, I didn't answer this part, but Rick has done here. I have never reconnected a battery on a car or bike without a small spark being generated when fitting the negative cable (always positive first).

I would not worry about this, it does sound like a dud battery!

Thanks again Owen and Rick, At the moment my battery has been sitting on the bench, not connected to anything except my voltmeter, and has been showing a steady 12.5 Volts for about 36 hours. I am going to leave it there for a couple more days to see what happens. As a matter of interest, I have copied this Link from the American ADV Rider site;
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=492431&highlight=battery
It contains some interesting reading on this subject, especially for my 2005 model. Best regards, Bill

 

[DrFarkoff]

There WAS a software upgrade to do with power drain

IF I remember correctly the red hazard warning switch is supposed to go out after 30 seconds as the remaning CANbus shutsdown

This modification which was an "in service modification" NOT a recall was to check the switch if it was still lit after 30 seconds if so then we rewrote the software with a package on the Komet diagnostics system

 

[RickG]

There was an update a few years back as you say but I doubt that's the issue as the 4-5mA drain reported would not flatten a good battery in a few days which seems to be your problem.

If you can't measure anything with your meter this suggests your bike is not drawing even this amount of current

A duff battery can still show a decent voltage on the bench for some time but may quickly lose the capacity to supply enough current to turn over the engine.

I'd still go for the idea of a bad battery, it's not an uncommon problem on 1200's. Can you borrow one from a mate to try before you buy a new one?

Unless it's them Mutton Birds are stealing your 'leccy at night?

 

[bilby-2007]

There was an update a few years back as you say but I doubt that's the issue as the 4-5mA drain reported would not flatten a good battery in a few days which seems to be your problem.

If you can't measure anything with your meter this suggests your bike is not drawing even this amount of current

A duff battery can still show a decent voltage on the bench for some time but may quickly lose the capacity to supply enough current to turn over the engine.

I'd still go for the idea of a bad battery, it's not an uncommon problem on 1200's. Can you borrow one from a mate to try before you buy a new one?

Unless it's them Mutton Birds are stealing your 'leccy at night?

Hey Rick,
You an old Coffs boy?? No, it's not the Mutton birds.
Latest on my situation is that the battery sat onthe bench for about 4 days, and only dropped down to 12.47V. So I unhooked it, and without any further charging, took it to the local auto electrician. He load tested the battery to 120Amps. He said it was an excellent battery, and would start a full sized car. So it's back to the bike as the cause. I notice today, this post on the site; http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214401
Sounds a little familiar??? I am also getting a little suspicious at the number of posts (in America and UK) which talk about the need for battery tenders on R1200's. Admittedly, these are from owners in much colder climates than I experience, but it seems to be an indicator of a "design feature". I think I will have to look into an additional power socket on the front cowel, wired directly to the battery. What do you think??

 

[andyclift]

I had a battery problem with mine after about 18 months use. It would only hold a charge for a day or too. A phone call to the dealer solved the problem. He told me there was a problem with the instrument panel being powered all the time which was OK on a new battery but if the bike was regularly parked for a few days it resulted in heavy discharge/charge cycles. When the dealer checked the fault coded it showed a lot of heavy charging. A software update solved the problem (plus a new battery under warranty)

It was a while ago now but I think that before the update turning the key to first position resulted in the mileage showing to the LCD display. After the update the mileage does not show. This little test will show whether the update has been done.

 

[RickG]

Hey Rick,
You an old Coffs boy?? No, it's not the Mutton birds.
Latest on my situation is that the battery sat onthe bench for about 4 days, and only dropped down to 12.47V. So I unhooked it, and without any further charging, took it to the local auto electrician. He load tested the battery to 120Amps. He said it was an excellent battery, and would start a full sized car. So it's back to the bike as the cause. I notice today, this post on the site; http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214401
Sounds a little familiar??? I am also getting a little suspicious at the number of posts (in America and UK) which talk about the need for battery tenders on R1200's. Admittedly, these are from owners in much colder climates than I experience, but it seems to be an indicator of a "design feature". I think I will have to look into an additional power socket on the front cowel, wired directly to the battery. What do you think??

No, regrettably I'm not from your side of the planet, wish I was given it's -5 outside now and my visor froze up on the inside yesterday, that and Blighty is seriously broke! Passed through your way a few years back.

Your battery sounds fine. Mine is over three years old, never been hooked up to a Optimate and the bike has never failed to start even when it's bloody freezing and been left for a couple of weeks. The 1200 battery is a bit small but when it's in good condition it is easily up to the job it's asked to do. Provided you have no underlying problem or non-standard item fitted that could drain it (GPS) I see no need to keep it on a minder unless you're use the bike very infrequently. I know some people swear by them but all I can say is I've never needed to bother

The info' from Andyclift could explain most of the problem and is an easy check to perform, your local dealer ought to be able to plug in and check which software version you are running to confirm this, though it's surprising it's not been updated by now.

I'm still puzzled why you can't measure some amps if there is a drain. You accidentally popped the fuse in your Fluke?

 

[bilby-2007]

No, regrettably I'm not from your side of the planet, wish I was given it's -5 outside now and my visor froze up on the inside yesterday, that and Blighty is seriously broke! Passed through your way a few years back.

Your battery sounds fine. Mine is over three years old, never been hooked up to a Optimate and the bike has never failed to start even when it's bloody freezing and been left for a couple of weeks. The 1200 battery is a bit small but when it's in good condition it is easily up to the job it's asked to do. Provided you have no underlying problem or non-standard item fitted that could drain it (GPS) I see no need to keep it on a minder unless you're use the bike very infrequently. I know some people swear by them but all I can say is I've never needed to bother

The info' from Andyclift could explain most of the problem and is an easy check to perform, your local dealer ought to be able to plug in and check which software version you are running to confirm this, though it's surprising it's not been updated by now.

I'm still puzzled why you can't measure some amps if there is a drain. You accidentally popped the fuse in your Fluke?

Thanks Rick and Andy. There has been a bit of a delay as "She who must be obeyed", thinks there are other things with a higher priority than the bike. Firstly, Rick; your comment about a fuse made me investigate that matter. I assumed that as the meter was working fine on Volts and Ohms, everything was OK. But, sure enough, the fuse is only in circuit on Amps. Ouch!! Now that has been sorted, I can report that when I first bridge the gap between the -ve cable and the -ve pole of the battery, I see 209mA for about 2 seconds, then a drop to 150mA for about 8 seconds, then a drop to 90mA, which just stays there forever. The 150mA is due to the fact that the clock and odometer readings stay on the LCD screen for that duration. Second, Andy; I assume position 1 is one click clockwise from the Lock position, and position 2 is ignition "on". That being the case, my clock and odometer come on in position 1, and stay on for about 8 seconds, before turning off (unless I go to position 2. When I go from position 2 to position 1, the clock and odometer stay on for about 8 seconds before turning off. This would appear to indicate that I haven't got the software update installed in my bike. In the mean time, I have now installed an accessory power socket on the front left plastic panel, wired directly to the battery so as to avoid the CAN bus system. I will get my Dealer to check the software updates at the first opportunity. (He is about 2 1/2 hours away).

 

[RickG]

Looks like you're getting there mate. As I said earlier mine draws 120mA for 5 seconds then shuts down to nothing so yours is cooking by comparison. Let us know if it does turn out to be the software and you get it fixed OK

 

[GSband]

There's always some Amps that flow, even when handlebar is in locked position, but very low, some 3 mA. It's a bit higher (once everything has come to rest) in position '1', some 4,3 mA. So it's recommended to lock handlebar when not in use.

 

[bilby-2007]

There's always some Amps that flow, even when handlebar is in locked position, but very low, some 3 mA. It's a bit higher (once everything has come to rest) in position '1', some 4,3 mA. So it's recommended to lock handlebar when not in use.

Since my last post I have identified another problem. The auxilliary socket under the seat, AND the socket taped to the steering headstock will not supply power to anything. There is voltage there at normal (with ignition ON), but as soon as any load is plugged in, the voltage drops to about 3V at the socket. I have installed my own auxilliary socket direct to the battery (via a fuse), so this is not a major concern, but the 90mA permanent drain from the battery is a nuisance. I now plug my trickle charger in when I get home from a ride.
I have now finally managed to take the bike to my nearest BMW service centre. The resulting diagnosis is a faulty ZFE. They blame the ZFE for both problems, and say; "most likely caused by plugging a non-BMW charger directly into the standard auxilliary sockets". They say they have received this advice from BMW. Price for a new installed ZFE is approx AUD$1000. OUCH!!! They are confident it is the ZFE, because they had an identical problem on another '05GS a month ago, and the new ZFE fixed it.
I tried to source one from Nippy Normans and Moto-bins, but they apparently don't supply them, so unless anyone has another source, I will have to save up big time for a genuine from BMW (It does stand for Bring More Wallet, doesn't it??).
By the way, on the parts fiche site, what is the difference between
CENTRAL VEHICLE ELECTRONICS (BASIC LOW 39.0)
and
CENTRAL VEHICLE ELECTRONICS (BASIC HIGH 47.0)
I think this is referring to the ZFE Y/N?
regards, Bill

 

[davieboy]

As a matter of interest I also have a 2005 gs with exactly the same problem and nobody has been able to help me so I just have to keep using the trickle charge, however I have heard someone mention that if the ECU unit is replaced it will solve the problem.

Hope you solve the problem

David

 

[RickG]

The ZFE unit is the electrical distribution module, a clever fuse box with knobs on. I guess there ought to be relatively easy fix if it's a seperate entity from main ECU as it would be possible to get one from a breaker and simply (possibly) plug it in. This would also depend on it not having a unique identifier that the ECU used in order to talk to it, unless that could be re-programmed.

Maybe.

Someone in the know ought to be able to put us right?

 

[bilby-2007]

The ZFE unit is the electrical distribution module, a clever fuse box with knobs on. I guess there ought to be relatively easy fix if it's a seperate entity from main ECU as it would be possible to get one from a breaker and simply (possibly) plug it in. This would also depend on it not having a unique identifier that the ECU used in order to talk to it, unless that could be re-programmed.

Maybe.

Someone in the know ought to be able to put us right?

Hello again Rick,
I have contacted a second dealer for a comparison price, and the story is exactly the same; The purchase price for a ZFE is about AUD$830, and it needs to be programmed up on the bike, which takes from 1 to 2 hours (I fail to see how is can possibly take this long - Sounds like the technician must be writing the code in machine language ???) So that's where the estimate of a AUD$1000 price comes from.
I rang a BMW bike wrecker to see if they had one, and that's when the questions about which version of ZFE I had started. See my other Post,
http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222642
I guess it might be a bit risky to buy second hand, without any certainty that the unit is in perfect working order, if I am still going to be paying for 2 hours of labor costs to do the programming.