Bike cut out

[DrFarkoff]

I think I would be looking for a known good set of Hall Sensors, They are VERY susceptible to current surge (failing internally) and failing that a Motronic unit

Why not ring Motorworks and ask if they know anyone who frequently works on BM's in your area?



One other question Did your bike have a very low battery or did you replace the battery because it was dying recently?

 

[fbpmc]

I think I would be looking for a known good set of Hall Sensors, They are VERY susceptible to current surge (failing internally) and failing that a Motronic unit

Why not ring Motorworks and ask if they know anyone who frequently works on BM's in your area?



One other question Did your bike have a very low battery or did you replace the battery because it was dying recently?

The Battery has to be charged quite frequently because it has not been used much over the winter. As you know the clock resets to zero
when the battery is low, and that did happen in the petrol station when I filled before it broke down !? Are you thinking that could be significant. ?

 

[DrFarkoff]

Out of maybe 45 bikes that I have gone and recovered (over the last 10 years) from not starting and cutting out only 3 or 4 did not have duff batteries or bad starters (which meant they drew a lot of energy from the battery)

The owners said that they just got it started and managed with it as they hadn't the money for a new one

I hate to say this but If you make do with a dodgy battery instead of spending around £50 for a decent battery (MUCH better to spend around £90 on an Odyssey PC680)

You can end up with tow in charges and £160 plus on a replacement HES plate If you are keeping the bike I'd verify there is not any more damage to the loom scrounge a known good HES plate and Have a Motronic Unit to hand

If yours melted the coil some bad doo doo was going on !

Did you split the tape off the big loom and see if there are any melted wires in there?

 

[Ian J Hartley]

The clock resetting to zero, if it happened at the point when you pressed the starter button, is usually sign of a large current draw from the battery, which has dropped the battery voltage significantly. Either faulty starter motor or old tired battery. The fact that you can continue to crank the engine makes me think the battery is Ok. So there might be something going on with your starter motor, which caused the initial problem. An indication of a starter motor problem is " at the point of pressing the start button, the starter appears to crank slowly, clock resets, then the starter motor picks up full speed". On a warm engine you might not notice the starter motor. But a short across the windings on the motor at one point may only appear again once in a hundred starts depending on the position of your starter motor armature before and after rotation. If it's an original Valeo starter motor then could be the grease plate adrift inside. But let's not digress.

When you get a moment, read post #1 of this thread for info
http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?207984-Starter-Strip/page2

For now though let's concentrate on your "no ignition problem". I agree with Dr Farkoff, The fault is looking like failed hall sensors.

I think Motorworks provide a sale and return service, so If the Hall sensor don't cure your problem, then you can return them.

Don't give up! you are learning a lot about the electrics of the bike, and once this is over and the bike is fixed. You should have years of faultless riding.

 

[Ian J Hartley]

There is a method for checking the hall sensor, injectors, and ignition statically.

1. Remove the plugs and connect to HT leads and ground *the plugs.

2. Remove either one or both injectors and place in clear plastic bag.

3. Turn the ignition on and ensure the fuel pump primes.

4. Place bike in gear.

5. Make sure the side stand is up.

6. Rotate the rear wheel in the direction of travel, this will rotate engine.*

As the engine rotates the hall sensors will trigger the ignition and the injectors and you should see the plugs spark, followed by a spurt of fuel, followed by plugs spark etc. As the injectors fire, so does the fuel pump to pressurise the rail.

It moves everything in slow time, but you would see the same results quicker if you left it out of gear and cranked engine on starter.

Caution be careful fuel and ignition could cause fire.

This method Could be used to diagnose problems with one side and the other, like faulty injector, or plug lead, or plug. There are however other symptoms that give the same clues. Lumpy running, poor/no idle, wet plug , dry plug.

It does help with understanding how the motronic functions on the bike.

To be honest I doubt I would use this check other than to check the spray pattern of an injector, and I'm sure there are other ways to check them.

It's not easy turning it from the back wheel, and you need to get the engine to turn over at a pace other wise you might not see a spark. So you could leave it out of gear and turn the engine over from the nut on the crankshaft pulley.

The only thing that tells the motronic that the engine is rotating is the hall sensor, so if you get nothing, not even the pump priming as you rotate engine, then the likelihood is the hall sensor are stuffed.

That's the long method. A quick check would be to
pull the plugs.
Ignition on,
check for pump prime,
bike in gear,
turn back wheel, and listen for the pump priming as you rotate.
No pump prime during rotation.
Failed hall sensor.

I'm hoping I got this right,if not anyone feel free to jump in.

 

[fbpmc]

There is a method for checking the hall sensor, injectors, and ignition statically.

1. Remove the plugs and connect to HT leads and ground *the plugs.

2. Remove either one or both injectors and place in clear plastic bag.

3. Turn the ignition on and ensure the fuel pump primes.

4. Place bike in gear.

5. Make sure the side stand is up.

6. Rotate the rear wheel in the direction of travel, this will rotate engine.*

As the engine rotates the hall sensors will trigger the ignition and the injectors and you should see the plugs spark, followed by a spurt of fuel, followed by plugs spark etc. As the injectors fire, so does the fuel pump to pressurise the rail.

It moves everything in slow time, but you would see the same results quicker if you left it out of gear and cranked engine on starter.

Caution be careful fuel and ignition could cause fire.

This method Could be used to diagnose problems with one side and the other, like faulty injector, or plug lead, or plug. There are however other symptoms that give the same clues. Lumpy running, poor/no idle, wet plug , dry plug.

It does help with understanding how the motronic functions on the bike.

To be honest I doubt I would use this check other than to check the spray pattern of an injector, and I'm sure there are other ways to check them.

It's not easy turning it from the back wheel, and you need to get the engine to turn over at a pace other wise you might not see a spark. So you could leave it out of gear and turn the engine over from the nut on the crankshaft pulley.

The only thing that tells the motronic that the engine is rotating is the hall sensor, so if you get nothing, not even the pump priming as you rotate engine, then the likelihood is the hall sensor are stuffed.

That's the long method. A quick check would be to
pull the plugs.
Ignition on,
check for pump prime,
bike in gear,
turn back wheel, and listen for the pump priming as you rotate.
No pump prime during rotation.
Failed hall sensor.

I'm hoping I got this right,if not anyone feel free to jump in.

Hi I will try this tomorrow and let you know. Thanks
Dave Muscroft

 

[fbpmc]

Strange !!

Hi I will try this tomorrow and let you know. Thanks
Dave Muscroft

Carried out the Hall sensor check today, nothing no spark , no fuel, no re-pressure on fuel pump.
Then whilst tidying up then wiring , pressed the starter and it RAN !!.
Amazed I took it out and did 20 miles or so no problems, got back and it will not start again !!!!!!!!!!.
Thinking along the lines of a broken ( Intermitent ) wire somewhere ? but which one ?
Ordered a new Odyssey PC 680 battery today as mine will not hold charge.
Found an independent BMW bike garage in York but they can not look at it until April.
Will keep trying until then, and keep you informed.

 

[Ian J Hartley]

Defective hall Sensors will do that for you. The heat effects them, work OK when cold, but stop working when Hot. Allow them to cool down again and they might start to work again.


If you haven't already done so read this link. It explains the symptoms and the likely cause.

http://users.rcn.com/dehager/service/oilhead_hall_sensors.pdf

 

[Ian J Hartley]

I would hazard a guess based on the age of your bike, that the hall sensor wiring is probably the cause of your problems. As the linked document states, it isn't up to the heat cycle and as such becomes brittle, the insulation breaks down, and with heat, and the vibration from the engine, the wiring shorts together, or the crimped joints produces a high resistance that weakens the signal.

So it could be just the wiring faulty and the sensors are OK.

If it was me I would remove the hall sensor unit, strip the sleeving from the harness and examine the wiring, for damage etc. but then I'm a qualified on electrics, so the task doesn't phase me.

If your not up to it, try and find someone local to you, a friend or work colleague, who would be prepared to at least examine the harness for you. At least with it off the bike a 9v battery and an LED together with flexing the wires might help to confirm whether the unit is faulty or not.

If the wiring is good and sound, then maybe the sensors themselves are faulty. Some applied heat would confirm that for you.

Failing that you could just replace them, but the price varies from about £60 for a good used set ( not really recommended ) to £18O for a new set.

 

[fbpmc]

I would hazard a guess based on the age of your bike, that the hall sensor wiring is probably the cause of your problems. As the linked document states, it isn't up to the heat cycle and as such becomes brittle, the insulation breaks down, and with heat, and the vibration from the engine, the wiring shorts together, or the crimped joints produces a high resistance that weakens the signal.

So it could be just the wiring faulty and the sensors are OK.

If it was me I would remove the hall sensor unit, strip the sleeving from the harness and examine the wiring, for damage etc. but then I'm a qualified on electrics, so the task doesn't phase me.

If your not up to it, try and find someone local to you, a friend or work colleague, who would be prepared to at least examine the harness for you. At least with it off the bike a 9v battery and an LED together with flexing the wires might help to confirm whether the unit is faulty or not.

If the wiring is good and sound, then maybe the sensors themselves are faulty. Some applied heat would confirm that for you.

Failing that you could just replace them, but the price varies from about £60 for a good used set ( not really recommended ) to £18O for a new set.

Hi I have taken the Hall sensor out and stripped the wiring insulation back the wires seem ok no sign of any burning fusing etc.
There are 5 wires one is fairly thick and is in a clear sheath then wrapped in gold coloured foil along with the other wires from this point, this wire is not connected to anything , is this right ?.

Regards FBPMC

 

[fbpmc]

Hi I have taken the Hall sensor out and stripped the wiring insulation back the wires seem ok no sign of any burning fusing etc.
There are 5 wires one is fairly thick and is in a clear sheath then wrapped in gold coloured foil along with the other wires from this point, this wire is not connected to anything , is this right ?.

I have seen a Hall Sensor unit on Ebay made by ARCHON with a warranty have you heard of this company ?
Looks like I am going to have to buy one from somewhere.

 

[Steptoe]

There is a method for checking the hall sensor, injectors, and ignition statically.

1. Remove the plugs and connect to HT leads and ground *the plugs.

2. Remove either one or both injectors and place in clear plastic bag.

3. Turn the ignition on and ensure the fuel pump primes.

4. Place bike in gear.

5. Make sure the side stand is up.

6. Rotate the rear wheel in the direction of travel, this will rotate engine.*

As the engine rotates the hall sensors will trigger the ignition and the injectors and you should see the plugs spark, followed by a spurt of fuel, followed by plugs spark etc. As the injectors fire, so does the fuel pump to pressurise the rail.


I'm hoping I got this right,if not anyone feel free to jump in.

I'll jump in.

This method can be misleading. I've had hall sensors that give all the correct signs, as above, and can still be at fault. I've had bikes that start and will sit there idling for hours on end, but stall as the throttle is opened, and it's hall sensors.

The only conclusion i've come to using the above method is that if you get no signals anywhere at all using the above method, then it's a 90% chance your hall sensors are the problem.
And If you do get all the signals, that doesn't mean it's not your hall sensor.

I now use the GS911, but better still for on the road i have a hall sensor tester box.

 

[Ian J Hartley]

Hi I have taken the Hall sensor out and stripped the wiring insulation back the wires seem ok no sign of any burning fusing etc.
There are 5 wires one is fairly thick and is in a clear sheath then wrapped in gold coloured foil along with the other wires from this point, this wire is not connected to anything , is this right ?.

The thick clear wire should be connected at the connector end only (pin 1), The other end is unconnected. It is the screen, and protects the hall sensor signal from interference. The gold coloured foil has dual purpose.
1 . To provide additional screening
2. To provide some additional heat insulation.

I have seen a Hall Sensor unit on Ebay made by ARCHON with a warranty have you heard of this company ?
Looks like I am going to have to buy one from somewhere.

I've seen them, I believe they are a pattern part, whether they are as good as the original or not, I don't know.

The original hall sensor is a Bosch part, so probably available to order from any auto electric supplier. There are two different types due to the different type of connectors used. Most people get them from either Motorworks, motobins, James Sherlock or BMW, prices vary as you would expect.

Make sure you get the right one for your connector.

 

[Ian J Hartley]

I'll jump in.

This method can be misleading. I've had hall sensors that give all the correct signs, as above, and can still be at fault. I've had bikes that start and will sit there idling for hours on end, but stall as the throttle is opened, and it's hall sensors.

The only conclusion i've come to using the above method is that if you get no signals anywhere at all using the above method, then it's a 90% chance your hall sensors are the problem.
And If you do get all the signals, that doesn't mean it's not your hall sensor.

I now use the GS911, but better still for on the road i have a hall sensor tester box.

Thanks Steptoe, I agree.

I only suggested it because the OP (original Poster) had a likely problem with his battery. I wasn't sure that the output from the battery during start wasn't so low that there wouldn't be enough voltage for the motronic and ignition to work, unlikely, but you never know. At least doing the static check there would be the full voltage from the battery for the bikes motronic system. I'm pretty sure it's the hall sensors, but without either the GS911, the hall sensor test box, Or component substitution, I can't see any guaranteed way of confirming.

Ian

 

[fbpmc]

The thick clear wire should be connected at the connector end only (pin 1), The other end is unconnected. It is the screen, and protects the hall sensor signal from interference. The gold coloured foil has dual purpose.
1 . To provide additional screening
2. To provide some additional heat insulation.



I've seen them, I believe they are a pattern part, whether they are as good as the original or not, I don't know.

The original hall sensor is a Bosch part, so probably available to order from any auto electric supplier. There are two different types due to the different type of connectors used. Most people get them from either Motorworks, motobins, James Sherlock or BMW, prices vary as you would expect.

Make sure you get the right one for your connector.

Hi thanks for that I have ordered one, turning out to be a very expensive breakdown, hope the bike is reliable after all this or it's back to the japs for me.
Run them for fourty years never experienced anything like this.

 

[bart2181]

Hi thanks for that I have ordered one, turning out to be a very expensive breakdown, hope the bike is reliable after all this or it's back to the japs for me.
Run them for fourty years never experienced anything like this.

Hang in there fella.I've owned my 2nd 1100 since Oct,I too have replaced hall sensor,along with clutch,final drive bearing and ignition switch.but with 80k on it and showing signs of neglect it was expected.these bike are capable of clocking up 200k+ if looked after,you don't see many jap bikes showing that mileage.

 

[fbpmc]

Hang in there fella.I've owned my 2nd 1100 since Oct,I too have replaced hall sensor,along with clutch,final drive bearing and ignition switch.but with 80k on it and showing signs of neglect it was expected.these bike are capable of clocking up 200k+ if looked after,you don't see many jap bikes showing that mileage.

Hi NEW hall sensor fitted, NEW odyssey battery fitted, started it up IT RAN for about 30 seconds then stopped. No fuel pump noise !!?.
Check fuses and fuel pump fuse had blown. Replaced fuse still no fuel pump noise.
Check at tank connector. NO LIVES at all.

Relays click , all dash lights work. Handlebar Kill switch seems to be OK.

Frustrated and at a total loss as what to de next.
Any thoughts ?????????

 

[MikeO]

Look under the left side of the battery cage at the main loom. I'm betting you'll find that the rubber mounted battery cage has worn through the loom and is causing an intermittent short on the fuel pump circuit (green & white from memory?).

Mike

 

[fbpmc]

Hi NEW hall sensor fitted, NEW odyssey battery fitted, started it up IT RAN for about 30 seconds then stopped. No fuel pump noise !!?.
Check fuses and fuel pump fuse had blown. Replaced fuse still no fuel pump noise.
Check at tank connector. NO LIVES at all.

Relays click , all dash lights work. Handlebar Kill switch seems to be OK.

Frustrated and at a total loss as what to de next.
Any thoughts ?????????

If it helps when I turn the engine by hand the fuel relay clicks in every turn !! but still no live to the pump and no priming noise. The pump noise has been the only constant thing, but now that's stopped.
As you can see I am finding it very hard to see the funny side of this.

 

[fbpmc]

Look under the left side of the battery cage at the main loom. I'm betting you'll find that the rubber mounted battery cage has worn through the loom and is causing an intermittent short on the fuel pump circuit (green & white from memory?).

Mike

Hi I have stripped the covering back and had a good look at this part of the wiring loom, I was beginning to think you may have something hear, as the covering was showing bad signs of chaffing ! however on inspection the wiring is all fine only the covering / tape was worn. BMW have put the cluster of earth wires on top and they would rub through first onto the battery carrier which unless they sheared right through would not really cause a problem.
Any further suggestions would be appreciated .

Regards Dave M