Caja Sahel ""Oro""

[Tim Cullis]

So far I've owned
- BMW vario panniers/top box
- Jesse Odyssey panniers/top box
- BMW 1200GSA panniers
- Metal Mule panniers/top box

All of these are quick release systems. I wouldn't buy a system that wasn't QR, and for me QR means less than 30 seconds per item.

After owning the 1200GSA panniers I also wouldn't buy into a system that wasn't powdercoated inside and out. It would be nice to have a choice of colours as well.

Topbox sizes: for me, many topboxes are too small. In my opinion the unextended size of BMW's vario topbox should be the size it is when extended, with the extended size even larger.

On the 1150GSA, BMW had an option to use one of the panniers as a top box. Not so on the 1200GSA and the stupidly small size of the 1200GSA topbox was one of the two reasons I sold the GSA panniers and went to MM.

Jesse (and yours?) have scallopped front edge to allow paddling in sand--otherwise you bash your legs.

Hinged lids are a good idea (as in all the above systems) as you have somewhere to put things whilst you're sorting the contents. Jesse's lid packers--inside the lid--are another good idea.

The racks that go on the top of the Jesse panniers are a good idea as they prevent scratches and rub marks. And are also useable as handles.

TT has a good idea with the table that stretches between panniers, or can be supported from one pannier with legs. Could this be built into (inside) the pannier--maybe a version that folds double for packing into the pannier so the resulting table is larger. It doesn't have to be thick aluminium.

I didn't like the plastic corners of the 1200GSA panniers. Is this decoration or is there welding underneath?

The exhaust positioning on many bikes is a pain in the neck for luggage. As you know MM sells a narrower exhaust but that's more money. It would be worthwhile trying to see how close you can bring in the stock exhaust with an adapter pipe. Jesse tried this on the 1200GS but without an adapter; it didn't work properly and was one of the reasons I returned the systems.

Lowering the exhaust is another option which Jesse uses with their new Safari system.

FINALLY, although it's good to maximise the capacity/width for a particular model of bike, ideally the system should be capable of being moved to a different model.

Couple of interesting links here
GSA panniers
low cost Alpos

Hope this helps.
Tim

 

[(RIP) Kaister]

Mr Civil

Why not make your frames out of st st angle, and incorporate some laser cut holes in them.
Have the pannnier drop into the angle, and weld some ally blocks onto the back of the pannier that engage thru the slots in the angle

this is the front vertical edge only.

As you pivot the pannier into the frame you then need a QR lockable latch - there lots of st st ones around with keylocks in.

Look up southco or better still Albert Jagger http://www.albert-jagger.co.uk/Default.aspx?tabid=435 on the interweb and pick a usable lever type flush mtg latch.

Look into getting the panniers either powder coated or anodised black

 

[Deleted account 220427002]

Mr Civil

Why not make your frames out of st st angle, and incorporate some laser cut holes in them.
Have the pannnier drop into the angle, and weld some ally blocks on that engage thru the slots in the angle

this is the front only.

As you pivot the pannier into the frame you then need a QR lockable latch - similar to the type on your bus luggage lockers

Look up southco on the interweb and pick a usable lever type flush mtg latch

if he wasn't so tight he should pay you to design a QR system

ORO what does it stand for?

O' Really Original

 

[MikeP]

Poor old Civil. Hardly any consensus in the replies so far, so if it's going mean keeping your customers happy, you'll have to make bespoke sets for each.

Here's yet another set of opinions:

I agree that without a QD system, I'd never even consider a pannier set.

I'm with Jim (Trippy), the basic Zega puck system used by Touratech is simple, robust and proven (the MM system is overly complicated and adds weight). On top of that, the Zega mountings can be purchased individually from TT, so that's a bonus when it comes to repairs/servicing.

In short, when it comes to frames, I think that you'd be better leaving it to TT. They have spent time making frames for various bikes, you should concentrate on selling an alternative pannier that fits to their frames and let the buyer source the frames to suit their bike.

If the chamfered corners add strength, I'm all for it. If they are only there because that seems to be the fashion, forget it (it cannot be aerodynamics). Plus, the less complicated the shape, the easier it is to get an inner bag that fits and makes best use of the load space.

The bottom doesn't need to be chamfered. If the panniers mount high enough (like Zegas) there's less chance of trapping a leg when paddling.

Chamfered base only adds to the difficulty in making full use of the available space.

Same goes for deep lids. Nice in theory to have stowage in the lids but too much faffing about keeping stuff in there in practice.

Hinged lids? No. No. No. Hinged lids only add more failure points, more weight and more importantly they make unloading harder if a bag is strapped over the back of the bike (lift-off lids can be slid out from under).

I think that you should concentrate on competing with TT Zega, they are the simplest and IMHO the best compromise on the market. You have an opportunity to address some of the Zega issues such as the colours, interior finish and locks.

I think that many owners would pay above Zega prices for a better pannier that has the Zega advantages with their issues addressed (as above), yet utilises the Zega frames and mountings.

(With apologies to owners manufactures of Al Jessie's, Metal Mule, Vernatech, and Trax - have you seen the mounting system for Trax! None of them come close to TT Zega for simplicity, ease of use and mounting).

 

[Sgt Bilco]

I`m still a bit miffed as to the real need for a QR system in most circumstances?

Admittedly, they are useful and the standard system on the 1200ADV panniers is good but the 5-10 minutes it takes to remove them surely doesn`t hurt?

If you are camping, take a chair. Much cleaner and comfier IMHO and if they are bolted on, they ain`t never going to fly off!

 

[Arsey]

I`m still a bit miffed as to the real need for a QR system in most circumstances?

Admittedly, they are useful and the standard system on the 1200ADV panniers is good but the 5-10 minutes it takes to remove them surely doesn`t hurt?

If you are camping, take a chair. Much cleaner and comfier IMHO and if they are bolted on, they ain`t never going to fly off!

Ok,here's just 2 examples I can immediately think of from my last 2 trips.

1/ 4 of us with GSs/GSAs and all with QR panniers.We put all 4 bikes in 1 garage at hotel that would have been too small for bikes with panniers still attached-the last thing you want after a long day's ride is to have to start unbolting bits and bobs when you just want to get showered and down to the bar !

2/Spent a few days at based at one hotel so just unhitched panniers for local riding,leaving just top box to carry camera/usual clobber.


So I would never consider buying any panniers that weren't QR

 

[John Armstrong]

2/Spent a few days at based at one hotel so just unhitched panniers for local riding,leaving just top box to carry camera/usual clobber.

Other side is if you leave them on, it's somewhere to dump the jacket, trousers etc for you and eronbak if you want to have a wander, and it's hot and sunny. And act as crash bungs

But if you have the easy option, it's usefull.

 

[Sgt Bilco]

Ok,here's just 2 examples I can immediately think of from my last 2 trips.

1/ 4 of us with GSs/GSAs and all with QR panniers.We put all 4 bikes in 1 garage at hotel that would have been too small for bikes with panniers still attached-the last thing you want after a long day's ride is to have to start unbolting bits and bobs when you just want to get showered and down to the bar !

2/Spent a few days at based at one hotel so just unhitched panniers for local riding,leaving just top box to carry camera/usual clobber.

I get the point and been there with the small garages and they are very convenient but 5 mins is no hassle if you want them off for local riding!

My point is, it`s no problem for me and it wouldn`t stop me from buying a good set of panniers. I have to say that the panniers without QR systems like Caja`s and Verns are a much better quality and better on price than MM etc IMHO.

Each to their own......

 

[Thunder]

Other side is if you leave them on, it's somewhere to dump the jacket, trousers etc for you and eronbak if you want to have a wander, and it's hot and sunny. And act as crash bungs

But if you have the easy option, it's usefull.

I'm with you on this point John particularly for users of the Aerostich Roadcrafter or similar suits. When off the bike the helmet goes in the top-box and the Stitch into one of the panniers which are empty as the inner bags and contents are at the accommodation.

As for a quick release system I got a set of Caja's and fitted TT's Zega pucks to use with the Zega frames on the 100 GS and fitted a set of frames to the 1200 so one set of panniers could be used on both bikes.

Flat back panniers will always trade overall width off against those with cut outs and I decided to go with a set of Civil's bespoke 1200 luggage as I'm happy to have them fitted all the time and like the fact they are within the handlebar width.

 

[MikeP]

If you are camping, take a chair. Much cleaner and comfier IMHO and if they are bolted on, they ain`t never going to fly off!

I have QD panniers and I do always take a chair when camping.

I've seen "five minutes" that were more like twenty in reality (by the time you've got to the tools etc.).

Personally, I'd rather have a pannier that detaches in an off (after it has acted as a crumple-zone) than one that stays attached and risks ripping the mounting frames out with the attendant damage to sub-frame etc. I know that there are arguments for and against and no off will be the same. On balance a QD system is more of a plus than a minus.

Edit: I cannot see what "leaving them on to put your riding kit into" has to do with being QD or not. Just because they may be QD does not mean that they have to be taken off when empty.

 

[Tsiklonaut]

Personally, I'd rather have a pannier that detaches in an off (after it has acted as a crumple-zone) than one that stays attached and risks ripping the mounting frames out with the attendant damage to sub-frame etc. I know that there are arguments for and against and no off will be the same. On balance a QD system is more of a plus than a minus.

Hmm... Depends on the point of view and your practice/security levels really. Personally I'd not buy QD panniers myself, especially like Touratech's with those plastic hooks made out of chocolate - I'm pretty certain on a serious crash the pannier are one of the first bits that fly independently into horizon leaving your legs exposed to the ground and shocks to come, or there's even circa 1/10,000th chance the pannier will be hitting your own head @60mph just because it's loose.

Makes me really apriciate Civils/Verns/Bernd Teschs and other makers who have chosen to make "permanent" mounts rather than questionable QD-s, this is especially said after doing through a crash with them my own.

Talking about so called "Quick-Disconnect" panniers, IMHO, Vern Worldbeater panniers have a very neat "QD" system with metal discs, while there're NO plastic mount bits like on TouraTech's. Well OK, takes 2-3 minutes to take them off (TT ZEGAs will take maybe 30-60 seconds less time to release, but nothing notably less!) with the help from one hex key, but at the same time Verns can be called "permanent" mount panniers with rigid bomb proof mounts, there's no way it comes off - pannier will bend and absorb most of your crash energy by not falling off, while you can take the panniers off fairly quick too, if it's really needed. Makes the best security/practical compromise possible for me at least, IMHO speaking.

Another question is the durability of QD panniers in a long terms (vibrations, shocks etc), since the real QD panniers have to have more moving and fragile bits to offer you a real native QD option. This depends on your focus of biking of course - OK, if you travel on the SMOOOOOTH roads only, just short offroad runs, then you're OK with QD panniers. But if you come to like Estonia periphery roads filled with potholes, gravel, corrugations etc., then you'd rather go to robust "permanent" mounts to be sure you arrive to your destination still with 2 panniers attached to your bike. After 20,000+miles on such roads permanent mounts can make big difference.

Indeed, TouraTech's are probably some 5X better in strenght than the original BMW QD system, but still it doesn't compare to proper permanent mount systems in rigidity, security and bombproofness.

So it does depends how you want your panniers vs security and durability. Everything is a compromise.

Just my 2 cents about the argumentation QD vs "Permanent" mount panniers.

Margus

 

[Steptoe]

On the 1150GSA, BMW had an option to use one of the panniers as a top box. Not so on the 1200GSA and the stupidly small size of the 1200GSA topbox was one of the two reasons I sold the GSA panniers and went to MM.

.
Tim

Just posting this picture in another thread and it reminded me i was years ahead of the game of using panniers as top boxes.

 

[Berin]

I'd have to agree with Kev... no point in "borrowing" Trax/BMW design shape if you're not going to do quick release like them too

As you alway say you Listen to your customers get the Quick Release sorted... i'd say it's one of the biggest things putting people off buying.

and make them retro fitable to mine

That's the main reason I went for MM's, plus the fact that the MM's do the balanced set with a slimmer exhaust. And I couldn't work out how much the Civil's panniers would cost.

 

[Daithi]

And I couldn't work out how much the Civil's panniers would cost.

Just my 2cent, I'd prefer the non-QuickRelease type, if I was to use panniers, never mind the savings on the damage to the bike, its how they'd protect my legs would be the thing.

They look the job Civil.

 

[twisticles]

Did Midge Ure used to ride a Beemer? "It means nothing to me...ooooooooh vienna"....

 

[Davy F]

Did Midge Ure used to ride a Beemer?

More like Charlie Chaplin.....

 

[Thunder]

More like Charlie Chaplin.....

 

[Uinneag]

To me to you to me to you

 

[Steptoe]

Is civil thinking of selling his "Oro" panniers to Japan.

 

[speedo]

if he wasn't so tight he should pay you to design a QR system