VectisTraveller
Registered user
Hi, saw references to Can-Bus equipped bikes when looking at some parts on NN site. Which bikes are these and what does it mean? 
Thanks
Thanks
Can-Bus equipped bikes?
- Thread starter VectisTraveller
- Start date
Hi, saw references to Can-Bus equipped bikes when looking at some parts on NN site. Which bikes are these and what does it mean?
Thanks
For the boxer range, the "new" 1200 range, not the "old" cruiser 1200's btw
davedyer
Registered user
The can-bus system has been used in cars for a number of years now and has only just started being used on bikes. It is a way of reducing the amount of wiring within a vehicle's loom and therefore increasing reliability while improving fault-finding.
The can-bus system itself is the movement of information around the vehicle, controled by a central control unit (computer or ECU). This is basically how it works:
You want to put a left hand indicator on. On flicking the switch a digital signal goes to the ECU to switch the left-hand indicators on. The ECU then sends out a signal to a module near to the indicators to get them to flash. Another signal goes out to switch them off. Because these signals are digital, many signals of differant descriptions can be sent along the same wires. Therefore the wiring loom of a can-bus equipped vehicle will be only 2 or 3 wires which run around the chassis of the vehicle. Because the ECU will know if it is getting the correct response or not, it is easily interigated for any faults. The same principal applies to sensors, stepper motors, relays, etc, basically anything used in the running of the bike.
If there are any short circuits, the ECU will simply shut down the current to the component suffering the increase in current. This is why the 1200GS has no fuses.
The can-bus system itself is the movement of information around the vehicle, controled by a central control unit (computer or ECU). This is basically how it works:
You want to put a left hand indicator on. On flicking the switch a digital signal goes to the ECU to switch the left-hand indicators on. The ECU then sends out a signal to a module near to the indicators to get them to flash. Another signal goes out to switch them off. Because these signals are digital, many signals of differant descriptions can be sent along the same wires. Therefore the wiring loom of a can-bus equipped vehicle will be only 2 or 3 wires which run around the chassis of the vehicle. Because the ECU will know if it is getting the correct response or not, it is easily interigated for any faults. The same principal applies to sensors, stepper motors, relays, etc, basically anything used in the running of the bike.
If there are any short circuits, the ECU will simply shut down the current to the component suffering the increase in current. This is why the 1200GS has no fuses.
But in reality the 1200's seem to have far more electrical gremlins than the older machines.
What is more fixing them is not so simple as troubleshooting and replacing traditional systems.
Some would say that the natural habitat for a 1200 is the back of a recovery vehicle. Of course many of those people would not be 1200 owners as we are much more sensible and employ the KISS principle
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Keep It Simple Stupid
What is more fixing them is not so simple as troubleshooting and replacing traditional systems.Some would say that the natural habitat for a 1200 is the back of a recovery vehicle. Of course many of those people would not be 1200 owners as we are much more sensible and employ the KISS principle
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Keep It Simple Stupid
But in reality the 1200's seem to have far more electrical gremlins than the older machines.
Some would say that the natural habitat for a 1200 is the back of a recovery vehicle. Of course many of those people would not be 1200 owners as we are much more sensible and employ the KISS principle
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Keep It Simple Stupid
others would say, most faults are actually nothing to do with the canbus.
FWIW i think canbus is a total waste of time on a bike all the same. can't see any sign of saved wiring either, more like extra to include the ECU in the loop
This is not a statistical study, and I am biased against CANBUS, however whilst on the way home with the assistance of SOS recovery, (broke the exhaust mounting on the Harley) we were discussing what is their most common recovery, and it was new BMW's mostly with electrical problems. Now that may just be because they do not even attempt to look at them, so any call with electrical fault is automatically recovered.
The fact is that canbus is no more and probably no less reliable than regular wiring. It is however a pain in the backside, it will only allow a certain amount of draw so heated clothing etc can be a problem, as said already fault finding is more difficult and home repairs is almost completely out.
It is however much cheaper for a manufacturer to fit (hence Harleys are moving to it on the big dressers) it is cheaper in time for them to fix, and who cares about the cost as it will be passed on to the customer anyway, IMHO it is way to complicated for a motorcycle.
But at least BM's haven't yet gone to fly by wire, that will be the next thing, it is already in use in the touring Harley range, and BMW is sure not to be to far behind !!!
The fact is that canbus is no more and probably no less reliable than regular wiring. It is however a pain in the backside, it will only allow a certain amount of draw so heated clothing etc can be a problem, as said already fault finding is more difficult and home repairs is almost completely out.
It is however much cheaper for a manufacturer to fit (hence Harleys are moving to it on the big dressers) it is cheaper in time for them to fix, and who cares about the cost as it will be passed on to the customer anyway, IMHO it is way to complicated for a motorcycle.
But at least BM's haven't yet gone to fly by wire, that will be the next thing, it is already in use in the touring Harley range, and BMW is sure not to be to far behind !!!
... What is more fixing them is not so simple as troubleshooting and replacing traditional systems.
Maybe not for the home mechanic... but for a dealer with the correct hardware it should be easier, which is supposedly one of the advantages of a CANbus.
I think as the technology matures it will get more reliable, having said that... a bike still seems an inhospitable place for complex electronics.
rudiemoto
Registered user
canbus is to make fault finding easy,and replace just the brokern sensor or s/w
but its bo(((cks,because most techs r not upto date and dont have all the plug and play toys(aa,rac,greenflag)the drop you off at home then you need a van to drop it off at dealers .the big fault of canbus it reads volt and processes and then if wire is tramped or plugs fur up then ressisstance changes and a fault code pops up sometimes is shows other times the bike will not start.were the old type is your lights flicker or sidestand s/w cuts bike out and its easy to find did a rsv millie today aa drop it off at shop took 3 secs to fault find made aa look a
bike starts then when your put in first it cuts out ,with stand up or down
quote to aa man' come on its not rocket science'
so lets look forward to 1300gsa flyby wire
ps i ride 1150 gsa not because 12 has faults its cause the 12 was design for the girls
but its bo(((cks,because most techs r not upto date and dont have all the plug and play toys(aa,rac,greenflag)the drop you off at home then you need a van to drop it off at dealers
.the big fault of canbus it reads volt and processes and then if wire is tramped or plugs fur up then ressisstance changes and a fault code pops up sometimes is shows other times the bike will not start.were the old type is your lights flicker or sidestand s/w cuts bike out and its easy to find did a rsv millie today aa drop it off at shop took 3 secs to fault find made aa look a bike starts then when your put in first it cuts out ,with stand up or down
quote to aa man' come on its not rocket science'
so lets look forward to 1300gsa flyby wire
ps i ride 1150 gsa not because 12 has faults
its cause the 12 was design for the girls
i'd take a guess that most of those electrical problems are:
1) failed fuel pump energiser
2) EWS antenna failure
neither of which have anything to do with the CANBUS falling over.
I don't actually think they have any idea what, but the RAC and AA AFAIK, both have a policy of if it is a BMW and it stops and its electrical then just relay. Its the same with my wifes Harley she has recovery with Carole Nash, and their policy is not to attempt a fix but as soon as the call comes in to send a recovery van, regardless of what the call is for.
All that was broken on her bike was an exhaust bracket, could have welded it 30 seconds and didnt even need to take anything off the bike but in a field ? So just got trucked home. Only good thing was that she needed to get home in a hurry so se took my bike and I went home in the nice warm truck, which with my hangover was a good idea.
Most of the above are correct in the statements made, however what no one will tell you is that the real benefits are not to the end user but more aimed at the manufacturer and it's agents.
These are a result of extended service intervals and improved reliability (?) of modern products, the benefits are
1. That the customer uses the manufacturers network as no one else has access to the required tools (yes i am aware of Block exemption, but all manufacturers make it so difficult you would not bother), thus making life (survival) very difficult for the non franchised repairers who do a very good job at realistic prices.
2. Reduced production costs as wiring looms are generally made by hand so are very expensive to produce.
3. Easier to market, we all want the latest technology and the improved features that goes with it (until it goes wrong)
Also the weight reduction is a myth to get people to buy into the concept, the truth is that it probably save half a kilo max on a GS, BMW could lose this twice over just by looking at the OEM silencer alone.
I am not anti CAN Bus as my 2006 GS (14,000mls) has never missed a beat and as per previous threads most problems will have very little to do with the CAN bus, it is more likely that the technician knows (thinks) that he cannot fix it even before he sees the bike (or Car or Truck or whatever).
Anyway were stuck with it until its replacement comes along (and it will) so go out and enjoy.
These are a result of extended service intervals and improved reliability (?) of modern products, the benefits are
1. That the customer uses the manufacturers network as no one else has access to the required tools (yes i am aware of Block exemption, but all manufacturers make it so difficult you would not bother), thus making life (survival) very difficult for the non franchised repairers who do a very good job at realistic prices.
2. Reduced production costs as wiring looms are generally made by hand so are very expensive to produce.
3. Easier to market, we all want the latest technology and the improved features that goes with it (until it goes wrong)
Also the weight reduction is a myth to get people to buy into the concept, the truth is that it probably save half a kilo max on a GS, BMW could lose this twice over just by looking at the OEM silencer alone.
I am not anti CAN Bus as my 2006 GS (14,000mls) has never missed a beat and as per previous threads most problems will have very little to do with the CAN bus, it is more likely that the technician knows (thinks) that he cannot fix it even before he sees the bike (or Car or Truck or whatever).
Anyway were stuck with it until its replacement comes along (and it will) so go out and enjoy.
rudiemoto
Registered user
its still a girls bike
Pauly S
Registered user
wrong!!!!
As an Orange van man, i can say that is total doorlocks,they will send me to anything with wheels,2,3,4,6,even small lorries, the only exceptions are normally motorcycle rtas, tubed punctures, we do tubeless no probs,anything else is fair game, i have had many a bike in tons of bits at the side of the road, the most common fault seems to be regulators and charging faults.
regards Paul
....
As an Orange van man, i can say that is total doorlocks,they will send me to anything with wheels,2,3,4,6,even small lorries, the only exceptions are normally motorcycle rtas, tubed punctures, we do tubeless no probs,anything else is fair game, i have had many a bike in tons of bits at the side of the road, the most common fault seems to be regulators and charging faults.
regards Paul
Breakdowns.
I must agree with the above, I have had a few calls for bike buit usually
towing jobs, like when the sump plug came ot odf my 80rt at the top of weterham hill, after a fast? blast it came out at thwe top thank god not half way up!. Anyway my mates 100 gs cut out, RAC man said it was a brreak in the wiring harnes between ing. switch and main harness as he'd had the same
thing on his own GS. Got it going and this part is listed as a spare part by BMW lists it as a spare and also applies to 1150's I broughtr one before my recent little run on the bike. Worth getting one, only plugs in both ends and could save a long push!.
dave gs.
I must agree with the above, I have had a few calls for bike buit usually
towing jobs, like when the sump plug came ot odf my 80rt at the top of weterham hill, after a fast? blast it came out at thwe top thank god not half way up!. Anyway my mates 100 gs cut out, RAC man said it was a brreak in the wiring harnes between ing. switch and main harness as he'd had the same
thing on his own GS. Got it going and this part is listed as a spare part by BMW lists it as a spare and also applies to 1150's I broughtr one before my recent little run on the bike. Worth getting one, only plugs in both ends and could save a long push!.
dave gs.
....
As an Orange van man, i can say that is total doorlocks,they will send me to anything with wheels,2,3,4,6,even small lorries, the only exceptions are normally motorcycle rtas, tubed punctures, we do tubeless no probs,anything else is fair game, i have had many a bike in tons of bits at the side of the road, the most common fault seems to be regulators and charging faults.
regards Paul
I will stand corrected.
To be fair it was only the new bikes and only with electrical problems, when talking about the BM, and that was from the driver. As for my wife harley, I was on the end of the phone talking to the operator who said "if its a harley we wont try and fix it we will only relay home", good as her word didn't send a patrol out just sent a recovery van from SOS recovery, and they took me home, it was he that said they do the same for the new BMW's if they have an electrical fault.
I dont really think it has any bearing on the reliability or otherwise of CanBus though.
ASAIK no-one has had a fault on the CAN Bus - it's only a pair of wires after all. Most of the functions are controlled by the ZFE unit and these seem as bullet proof as the rest of the electronic units (Engine management, Instrument console, ABS etc.). You can go to the 1200GS.info site for a peek at the wiring diagram.
Electrical problems seem to be limited to peripheral switches (in the main).
A unit is available (GS911) from a South African company, at modest cost, to diagnose any failures when abroad (or even at home). This makes things easy.
If you want to always keep going you need to carry a spare fuel pump controller, spare ring antenna and know which wires to short on the side stand switch.
It's not important that your bike cost a fortune or you paid a "premium price" for a "premium product" - this is self help and it's what we all do to some degree - although some people seem to object to this as a matter of "principle"
Electrical problems seem to be limited to peripheral switches (in the main).
A unit is available (GS911) from a South African company, at modest cost, to diagnose any failures when abroad (or even at home). This makes things easy.
If you want to always keep going you need to carry a spare fuel pump controller, spare ring antenna and know which wires to short on the side stand switch.
It's not important that your bike cost a fortune or you paid a "premium price" for a "premium product" - this is self help and it's what we all do to some degree - although some people seem to object to this as a matter of "principle"
Yes I think there is some common misunderstanding when it comes to the CAN bus on the R12 series bikes.
The CAN bus is only used to connect all the computers on the bike together in a network. The computers are in the ZFE, ECU, instrument module, ABS unit and the alarm (last two optional obviously).
Most of the ancillaries are connected to the ZFE which is really the bikes central controller. It centralises functions that would otherwise be distributed around a conventional wiring loom, for example it connects directly to the indicator switches, and the indicator bulbs, and so on. This is the one that senses when for example the rear light isn't taking enough current therefore the bulb must have blown, it knows the mileage of the bike, computes the speed (and sends this info via CAN to the instrument module for display). It checks the ignition key chip via the ring antenna at startup and tells the ECU (via CAN) when its Ok to start the engine. Similar with the alarm.
The CAN bus is only used to connect all the computers on the bike together in a network. The computers are in the ZFE, ECU, instrument module, ABS unit and the alarm (last two optional obviously).
Most of the ancillaries are connected to the ZFE which is really the bikes central controller. It centralises functions that would otherwise be distributed around a conventional wiring loom, for example it connects directly to the indicator switches, and the indicator bulbs, and so on. This is the one that senses when for example the rear light isn't taking enough current therefore the bulb must have blown, it knows the mileage of the bike, computes the speed (and sends this info via CAN to the instrument module for display). It checks the ignition key chip via the ring antenna at startup and tells the ECU (via CAN) when its Ok to start the engine. Similar with the alarm.
Kiwi
Guest
I am not afraid of computers
Canbus is like anything else that is new. Give it a go and you will find it is not hard. I have recently rebuilt a crashed R1200GS. I purchased a GS-911 tool which lets me connect my laptop or nokia phone to the canbus connector and access the 4 computers. My bike had about 13 electrical faults as various sensors and switches were broken,disconnected or missing. It was easier than diagnosing faults with conventional wiring. Less guesswork and endless meter readings. It is a small device which I can carry on long trips.
So all that about canbus being for the benefit of dealers is plain bollocks. It is just something new. Tools are available for anyone who wants to work on it.
p.s. Love the GS. Everytime I start it up it just makes my laugh. One journalist described it as a biplane engine on two wheels. That sounds about right.
Canbus is like anything else that is new. Give it a go and you will find it is not hard. I have recently rebuilt a crashed R1200GS. I purchased a GS-911 tool which lets me connect my laptop or nokia phone to the canbus connector and access the 4 computers. My bike had about 13 electrical faults as various sensors and switches were broken,disconnected or missing. It was easier than diagnosing faults with conventional wiring. Less guesswork and endless meter readings. It is a small device which I can carry on long trips.
So all that about canbus being for the benefit of dealers is plain bollocks. It is just something new. Tools are available for anyone who wants to work on it.
p.s. Love the GS. Everytime I start it up it just makes my laugh. One journalist described it as a biplane engine on two wheels. That sounds about right.
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