Can I get my money back?

ianm00

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I bought a new GS1200 in March 2005. Ive had a problem with the ABS electrics on the bike. The bike is back at the dealers for the 4th time now due to this problem.

Its been at the dealers for the past week waiting for a service engineer to look at it (He is on holiday until tomorrow 4th July).

Im now getting very fed up having to chase what is happening. I shouldn't be having all this hassle after buying a new bike.

Im now on the verge of asking for my money back. I like the GS but its now good to me when its at the dealers.

What are my chances of getting my money back?

Any suggestions for an alternative "GS like" bike? Not BMW though! this is my first/last BMW!

Ian
 
Try getting a swap for a non ABS bike as I`m sure trying to get your cash back will be tricky to say the least :(
 
I know getting my money back will be difficult but after this experience I don't think I would want another BMW bike! (the bike is fine when its working but I want something reliable! As for BMW so called premier warrentee and dealer back up its not worth anything more than any other Jap dealer in my opinion!)

Currently I will wait this week and see if their specialist gets to look at the bike, but if I don't get any positive feedback soon I don't think there are any alternatives apart from asking for a refund!

Ian
 
Shame we don't have the lemon law like the yanks.
I had a new ford once, there was a noise coming from the roof lining it turned out to be water sloshing about,
after 3 attempts at trying to stop the water getting in,
ford replaced the car with a new one ..

Try Dutchman's dealer ;)
 
ianm00 said:
I bought a new GS1200 in March 2005. Ive had a problem with the ABS electrics on the bike. The bike is back at the dealers for the 4th time now due to this problem.

Its been at the dealers for the past week waiting for a service engineer to look at it (He is on holiday until tomorrow 4th July).

Im now getting very fed up having to chase what is happening. I shouldn't be having all this hassle after buying a new bike.

Im now on the verge of asking for my money back. I like the GS but its now good to me when its at the dealers.

What are my chances of getting my money back?

Any suggestions for an alternative "GS like" bike? Not BMW though! this is my first/last BMW!

Ian


In my opinion you are very close to the point whereby you would be entitled to reject the bike as it being "not fit for its purpose"

Search the threads in this forum and i think you'll find details of what your rights are and how you go about rejecting the bike, you could ask the dealer to replace the bike if the problem cannot be fixed.

He might say yes, and if he says no you should explore what rights of redress you have.
 
the only adviceI can think of is to
a) call your local Trading Standards office and seek help/advice
b) do the same with Citizens advice
C) start quoting the 1974 (?) sale of goods act stating that the product should be fit for its designed use. and I would suggest that this is not sat in the dealers workshop.

hope you fine joy at the end of these trials

H
 
Thanks for the advice guys.

I will give it a few more days to see if the "BMW Specialist" can sort it, but if there is no news by the end of the week I shall investigate getting a replacement of my money back.

Ian
 
Do talk to Trading Standards as you have more rights as a private buyer than if it is a company purchase, like mine was.

Mine was at dealer for 8 days in May and 6 days in June and I felt exactly as you do.

The problem is that, when the bike is running smoothly, it's quite simply the best bike in the world and I can't actually think of a bike that I'd rather ride.

I tried to complain to BMW directly but they simply aren't interested.

My problems are sorted with the bike but there's just this nagging concern that a problem will re-occur......
 
Davel said:
Do talk to Trading Standards as you have more rights as a private buyer than if it is a company purchase, like mine was.

Mine was at dealer for 8 days in May and 6 days in June and I felt exactly as you do.

The problem is that, when the bike is running smoothly, it's quite simply the best bike in the world and I can't actually think of a bike that I'd rather ride.

I tried to complain to BMW directly but they simply aren't interested.

My problems are sorted with the bike but there's just this nagging concern that a problem will re-occur......

I agree when the bike is running its very good and I cant think of an alternative however reliability is also important to me.

I have spoken to the BMW specialist today and they have now agreed to change all of the ABS electrics eg sensors wiring loom and control box. So I will wait for this to be done and hope that there are no more problems. Any more problems and I think I will try to get a refund.

Thanks for all the advice

Ian
 
Lessons learned......

.......from having 3 GS's in less than a year......

1) Your purchase contract is with the selling dealer. BMW UK & BMW AG have no part to play in the sales transaction.

2) Any legal action you might contemplate will have to be instigated against the supplying dealer. If they in turn choose to seek redress from the importer or manufacturer, that's a matter for them and plays no part in how the dealer should deal with your complaint(s).

3) Get your complaint down in writing, to the dealer principal, managing director, owner etc...the higher the better. Don't waste your time with sales persons, after-sales managers etc......deal straight with the bod who has the authority to say 'yes'.

4) Important phrases to use in any correspondence are:

(a) I am not satisfied......
(b) These goods are not of merchantable quality.......
(c) These goods are not fit for the purpose for which they are intended and for which you sold them to me....(forget about any comparisons with the 'Long Way Round'...concentrate on the fact that they've sold you something purporting to be a mode of transport....no ABS=no transport.....)

5) Keep cool, polite & under control at all times.......you have the law on your side, every step of the way.....)

6) It actually costs the dealer very little to either give you your money back or offer you a replacement bike. They get your old bike back which after warranty repair will become used stock for them. The new bike will only cost them the wholesale price.......the difference can be measured in hundreds rather than thousands......

7) There is no number 7.......good luck!

Cheers

Dutch
 
R1200GS

I bought a R1200GS on Ist March 05 and had small niggling problems. BMW and most dealers are crap but I took the bike to Spain and it was fantastic until I went over a mountain. The BMW assistance was fantastic and I was flown home. I have just purchased a replacement as the bike was so good. Stick with it it is worth it. No other bike matches this for grin factor.
 
ianm00 said:
I agree when the bike is running its very good and I cant think of an alternative however reliability is also important to me.

I have spoken to the BMW specialist today and they have now agreed to change all of the ABS electrics eg sensors wiring loom and control box. So I will wait for this to be done and hope that there are no more problems. Any more problems and I think I will try to get a refund.

Thanks for all the advice

Ian

My second GS suffered ABS control unit failure....and after the unit was replaced the bike was never the same again.....the brakes just didn't 'feel right'........dealer replaced the bike eventually......

Cheers

Dutch
 
Re: R1200GS

Ian Paterson said:
but I took the bike to Spain and it was fantastic until I went over a mountain.

What exactly do you mean? Over the side of a mountain? Did it break down or break up?

Andy
 
Re: R1200GS

Ian Paterson said:
I took the bike to Spain and it was fantastic until I went over a mountain.

So did it literally go over the side of a mountain or what??? Did it break down or break up???

Andy
 
Bike went over a mountain,but a tree managed to stop it! Ian stopped on the road. Go on Ian post the pictures. Now if you had a proper GS (cat,pigeons etc) it would have taken the tree out an you could have ridden it back up the mountain!!
Hope your legs ok now. Keep in touch:tigger
 
What exactly is the problem with ABS?

Well, I had weird "no ABS" situation 4 times untill I found the root cause: faulty hand brake lever detector switsh. BMW guys never found the problem as computer did not recognise anything weird. There were 2 "mechanics with lederhosen" examining the bike during winter....

Now my bike is at the dealer for second final drive swap. First final drive lasted 7500 km, second lasted only 1300 km. I hope the third will be a lot better, like 10x.

FIN_GSer
 
From the DTI 'Sale of goods act' pages;



Key Facts

• Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).

• Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price and any description.

• Aspects of quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor defects, appearance and finish, durability and safety.

• It is the seller, not the manufacturer, who is responsible if goods do not conform to contract.

• If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale, purchasers can request their money back "within a reasonable time". (This is not defined and will depend on circumstances)

• For up to six years after purchase (five years from discovery in Scotland) purchasers can demand damages (which a court would equate to the cost of a repair or replacement).

• A purchaser who is a consumer, i.e. is not buying in the course of a business, can alternatively request a repair or replacement.

• If repair and replacement are not possible or too costly, then the consumer can seek a partial refund, if they have had some benefit from the good, or a full refund if the fault/s have meant they have enjoyed no benefit

• In general, the onus is on all purchasers to prove the goods did not conform to contract (e.g. was inherently faulty) and should have reasonably lasted until this point in time (i.e. perishable goods do not last for six years).

• If a consumer chooses to request a repair or replacement, then for the first six months after purchase it will be for the retailer to prove the goods did conform to contract (e.g. were not inherently faulty)

• After six months and until the end of the six years, it is for the consumer to prove the lack of conformity.





Q1. What is an inherent fault?

A fault present at the time of purchase. Examples are:
• an error in design so that a product is manufactured incorrectly
• an error in manufacturing where a faulty component was inserted.
The "fault" may not become apparent immediately but it was there at the time of sale and so the product was not of satisfactory standard.

Q2. Do I only have rights for 30 (or some other figure) days after purchase?

No. Depending on circumstances, you might be too late to have all your money back after this time, but the trader will still be liable for any breaches of contract, such as the goods being faulty. In fact, the trader could be liable to compensate you for up to six years.

Q3. Are all goods supposed to last six (or five) years?

No, that is the limit for bringing a court case in England and Wales (five years from the time of discovery in Scotland's case). An item only needs to last as long as it is reasonable to expect it to, taking into account all the factors. An oil filter would usually not last longer than a year but that would not mean it was unsatisfactory.

Q4. I know I can demand my money back within a "reasonable time" but how long is that?

The law does not specify a precise time as it will vary for most sales contracts as all the factors need to be taken into account to be fair to all sides. The pair of everyday shoes may only have a few days before the period expires but a pair of skis, purchased in a Summer Sale, may be allowed a longer period by a court.

Q5. After the "reasonable time" has passed, what can I do?

You may seek damages, which would be the amount of money necessary to have the goods repaired or replaced. Frequently retailers will themselves offer repair or replacement. But, if you are a consumer (not making the purchase in the course of a business) you have the statutory right to seek a repair or replacement as an alternative to seeking damages.

Q6. Is it true that I have to complain to the manufacturer?

No. You bought the goods from the trader, not the manufacturer, and the trader is liable for any breaches of contract (unless he was acting as the manufacturer's agent).

Q7. Do I have to produce a receipt to claim my rights?

No. In fact the trader doesn't have to give you a receipt in the first place so it would be unfair to say that you had to produce one. However, it might not be unreasonable for the shop to want some proof of purchase, so look to see if you have a cheque stub, bank statement, credit card slip etc., and this should be sufficient.

Q8. Can I claim a refund on sale items?

It depends on why you want to return them. The Sale of Goods Act still applies, but you are not entitled to a refund if you were told of the faults before purchase, or if the fault should have been obvious to you. Also, you are not entitled to a refund if you simply change your mind about liking the goods.

Q9. Must I accept a credit note instead of a refund?

It depends on why you want to return the goods.

• If you have changed your mind, then the shop doesn't have to do anything.

• But if the goods are faulty, incorrectly described or not fit for purpose, then you are entitled to your money back (provided you act quickly), and you certainly don't have to take a credit note

• If you do accept a credit note in these circumstances, watch out, as there may be restrictions on their use.

• If the shop displays a sign stating they only give credit notes instead of refunds, they might be breaking the law and you could report them to your local Trading Standards Department.

Q10. What can I do to claim damages or if the retailer will not honour my rights?

The Small Claims Court procedure provides the means to bring a claim, for up to £5000 (in England and Wales), at modest cost and without the need for a solicitor. Your local Citizens Advice Bureau can advise on how to make a claim.

Q11. The retailer has said that a repair is "disproportionately costly" and insists I accept a replacement as an alternative. Must I accept this?

Yes, and vice versa if you request a replacement and this is "disproportionately costly". However, remember any remedy has to be carried out "without significant inconvenience" and within a "reasonable time" for the consumer. Remember that you could also seek damages instead.

Q12. Neither repair nor replacement of the goods are possible. What can I do?

You may either pursue the old route of damages or a partial or full refund. Probably either would give you exactly the same amount of money. You would seek a full refund in scenarios such as those where you had enjoyed absolutely no benefit from the goods. If you had benefited from them then you would seek a partial refund as a fair remedy. This is exactly the reasoning that would be employed if you sought damages.

Q13. What does the "reversed burden of proof" mean for the consumer?

It means that for the first six months the consumer need not produce any evidence that a product was inherently faulty at the time of sale. If a consumer is seeking any other remedy the burden of proof remains with him/her.

In such a case, the retailer will either accept there was an inherent fault, and will offer a remedy, or he will dispute that it was inherently flawed. If the latter, when he inspects the product to analyse the cause, he may, for example, point out impact damage or stains that would be consistent with it having been mistreated in such a way as to bring about the fault.

This reversal of the usual burden of proof only applies when the consumer is seeking a repair or replacement. After the first six months the onus of proof is again on the consumer.
 
All,

Thanks for the tips/advice.

After speaking to the BMW specialist engineer he has agreed to have the complete ABS system replaced. ie sensors/wiring control unit.

This is currently being done to the bike. This has restored my faith in the bike a bit as I feel that this should fix the problem.

So before I persue a replacement bike or refund I want to wait until I get the bike back from the dealer and see if all is OK.

I don't think its fair to name any dealers involved with this as its not been to just a single dealer due to my location when the problems occurred. All I can say is that in my opinion this so called "wonderful BMW aftersales / warrantee" is no different to any other dealer.

Ian
 
ABS difficulties

My advice is to be a little patient because I really don't think you will find a better all round bike on the market. In this age of magical black boxes it really is the dealer who you must choose carefully. If you have a genuine problem, as you have, most dealers would lend you a 'bike which you will be happy to ride for a week or two and keep you from becoming too disgruntled. I sat in an airport lounge for 5 hours on Monday waiting for some magician to rectify a computer problem - it is something we accept now in exchange for advanced technology. Friends of mine decided they had had enough, sold their modern bikes and 'went retro.' This lasted a year - one came off hard braking (without ABS of course) and the other had a general catalogue of mechanical faults.
I have had 8 BMW's now over a 30 year period and they have become steadily more refined, more complicated - but somehow seem to spend far more time on the road and virtually never in the workshop; Patience, Brian
 


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