comments on fuel pump failure thread

[camel_landy]

A few things prompted me to start this thread. I've had three direct experiences of fuel pump controller failures in Morocco. One in Azrou to Seatownmaster who had to ship his bike back to Spain in a van, one to me in Chefchaouen where I was rescued by Bob Wilson who rode to my rescue with a spare, and one to a World of BMW 'tourist' in Meknes.

Then I found out about PaulM who was stranded for two weeks in Tajikistan and was about to air freight his bike back to Turkey.

The final straw was reading TBM (Trail Bike Magazine) where the brand new 1200GSA that they borrowed from BMW for a back-to-back test with a KTM 990 failed after a couple of hundred miles. So this is obviously still a current problem that hasn't been sorted.

Enough is enough. It's time for BMW to produce A PROPER FIX for the problem, or, if this isn't immediately viable, in the meantime to reduce the cost of the spare part to a couple of quid so that those who are concerned can carry a spare,

rather than...



We need to collate how many breakdowns there have been, so please add your name (or details of a friend) if you have had a fuel pump controller failure on a 1200GS or 1200GSA.

- When and where did it happen?
- rider name
- bike details (model and year)
- remedy
- How many days work/holiday did you lose?
- Were there any incidental costs?

Tim

Now if you had said that before instead of just deleting posts, you might not have had the second thread starting up...

 

[judge]

Now if you had said that before instead of just deleting posts, you might not have had the second thread starting up...

+1 on that.

I applaud the initiative but the approach lacked any sort of opportunity to 'buy in' as there was a complete lack of a context, simply a demand to divulge information for an unknown reason simply because 'we' said so, came over as delusions of self-importance reinforced by draconian deletions of posts and didn't even sound like it has the buy in of the 1200 mod

My initial response was why the feck should I and my second was I don't even own a 12 so why should I give a feck

 

[Wapping]

When: Mar 08
Where: Hillbilly Country, Northern Spain
Name: Me
Bike: 06 1200GSA
Remedy: Paid a non BMW garage to replace it, as the BMW dealer in town was closed for the weekend - cost about £100. Bike was under warranty but if I waited for the BMW dealer I would have been delayed at least 2 days and had to buy a new ferry ticket. Despite being under warranty, BMW would not reimburse me the replacement costs.
Days lost: none (see above)

This is perhaps the most interesting of the replies so far. Not about the failure but more about what happened next....

I don't doubt your controller failed, lots do...quite why....the jury is out.

Not piss taking but genuinley interested.

(a) Did you have the standard European wide BuMW recovery / costs cover, available with all bikes up to two years old?

(b) Did you contact BuMW assist? What did they offer you? Or did you simply assume that as the BuMW would be / was shut, you were on your own? If, so that's a common enough mistake. BuMW are no obligation to assist you. Self-help sometimes flies in the face of logic, when applied to very specific vehicle assistance cover, sorry. I think I will do a thread on it as several people seem to make a few simple mistakes.

(c) Did you have the spare controller with you? Or did the non-BuMW supply it? If so, BuMW won't pay. Why should they? It's a bit like buying a spare foot rest, in case one fractures, then fitting it yourself. In essence, you chose to replace BuMW's own standard (and quite good) warranty cover with your own. A common enough mistake.

If you bought and brought your own controller as a spare, why go to a dealer to fit it at all?

 

[Wapping]

Now if you had said that before instead of just deleting posts, you might not have had the second thread starting up...

+1 on that.

I applaud the initiative but the approach lacked any sort of opportunity to 'buy in' as there was a complete lack of a context, simply a demand to divulge information for an unknown reason simply because 'we' said so, came over as delusions of self-importance reinforced by draconian deletions of posts and didn't even sound like it has the buy in of the 1200 mod

My initial response was why the feck should I and my second was I don't even own a 12 so why should I give a feck

In one....or two....

 

[Big Nick]

I think having a balanced view is no bad thing. I for one would be interested to know just what proportion of bikes are affected and as has already been said owners are more likely to sound off when they have a grievance than when they don't.
I don't think the thread on those who haven't had a failure was a piss take

 

[ebbo]

I agree with a balanced view, but have you seen how many bikes have failed, how many trip spoiled

 

[Timpo]

Camel/Tim, how much poke will this have with BMVee?
How can they do anything about it apart from what their warranty cover supplies?
If it as much a case as made out here, why hasn't VOSA flexed it's muscles?

I'm curious, not a sh!t-stirrer......

Timpo.

 

[karnevil]

I think it was perfectly clear what was being asked and why.The balance could simply have been assesed by the amount of responses by members minus the amount of members with 1200's.Not scientific but would give a general idea.

 

[Wapping]

I agree with a balanced view, but have you seen how many bikes have failed, how many trip spoiled

Yes but tkae the emotion out of it.

Tim said,

Well I have to say that I didn't have a failure in 48,000 miles on my first 1200GS so you can count that as a vote. And it took until 42,000 miles on my 1200GSA to get the first failure, so those with low mileages can take some consolation in that.

However... the hostility I have faced after raising this issue has soured my enthusiasm. I have therefore pulled my findings and will not be progressing the matter.

Tim

So that's one bike with 48,000 miles of (I assume) happy riding.

One bike with 42,000 miles of (I assume) happy riding and then buggeration.

90,000 miles of happy riding (much of it tough) and one failure, on one bike....annoying but hardly heart breaking is it?

My second Honda Blackbird (Honda's state of the art cross-Continents, rocket ship) had a similar issue - several of the early Fi versions did....I had the bike from new. The problem came up at about 15,000 miles.

Had I bought the bike second hand at 14,900 with a year to go on the warranty, my view might be one thing. That I kept it for a few more years and another 50,000 miles...my view is another.

 

[Wapping]

I think it was perfectly clear what was being asked and why.The balance could simply have been assesed by the amount of responses by members minus the amount of members with 1200's.Not scientific but would give a general idea.

The fault in that maths is easy to spot...you can make no assumption at all about those that have not replied, the survey has too many flaws, many of which have been pointed out.

Whilst the intent was good, the question was badly phrased and too open to having holes picked in it, not least by BuMW who, for sure, know exactly what the failure rate is....

Tim ended up with a list of names, nothing more, nothing less.

He should now put his dummy back in and then think what to do with it....BuMW (UK) would be a good place to start. Simply ask BuMW to comment as to why a list of X number of names doesn't represent a problem....coupled, perhaps, to anecdotal evidence, along the lines of. "Well my dealer told my mate it's a real problem....".

BuMW will reply but do not hold your breath in round one. Big enterprise (of any sort) can be fought and overcome (watch the China Syndrome) or much better any painstaking criminal or civil court prosecution or appeal. Tim fell at the first hurdle....or never came out of the stalls.....

 

[st247]

Tim fell at the first hurdle....or never came out of the stalls.....

Hardly. He started a thread to collate the information that you suggest he sends to BMW

He should now put his dummy back in and then think what to do with it....BuMW (UK) would be a good place to start. Simply ask BuMW to comment as to why a list of X number of names doesn't represent a problem....coupled, perhaps, to anecdotal evidence, along the lines of. "Well my dealer told my mate it's a real problem...."

Apparently he didn't phrase his thread in line with what you and others wanted, which resulted in Tim no longer wishing to contribute his time and effort.TBH i can understand his position, if (yes it is a big IF) he was successfull you, as well as everyone else, may well have benefitted.

 

[Wapping]

Hardly. He started a thread to collate the information that you suggest he sends to BMW



Apparently he didn't phrase his thread in line with what you and others wanted, which resulted in Tim no longer wishing to contribute his time and effort.TBH i can understand his position, if (yes it is a big IF) he was successfull you, as well as everyone else, may well have benefitted.

Not at all.

If you read what I said, I was suggesting a method to make use of the list, now that Tim has it. Not give up at the first bit of comment (from any quarter) that he comes across. Hence....he fell at the first...or maybe never came out of the stalls. Maybe I should have said, never came out of the stalls, properly? Is that better? I also put forward an opinion that large entities could be fought but it requires patience, not dummy spitting on day two.

I made no claim as to what I wanted at all. Another person started the alternative thread. As I said in one of my replies. I thought it was a pity the threads were spilt. I only pointed out that Tim's question was itself open to some very basic questioning; something that BuMW could probably do without too much help from anyone here, I confess. I thought that Tim had launched quite a good idea. If though he cannot stand having to support his findings or aspirations, that's a pity....BuMW will marmalise him...or, more likely, ignore him....

Robin (good egg that he appears to be) had a go at defending it (married to the second alternative thread).....until he too fell....... when Tim said he only wanted one sort of answer.....which rather left the good egg, Robin, beaten.

If you like, I will write to BuMW to ask them.....it's not very difficult.....I had already asked them what the damned controller did (or did you miss that).

Better still, maybe you should write to BuMW? Tim has shown you the way..... Either way, let me know, please.... Your call...

 

[Seatownmaster]

Not at all.

If you read what I said, I was suggesting a method to make use of the list, now that Tim has it. Not give up at the first bit of comment (from any quarter) that he comes across. Hence....he fell at the first...or maybe never came out of the stalls. Maybe I should have said, never came out of the stalls, properly? Is that better? I also put forward an opinion that large entities could be fought but it requires patience, not dummy spitting on day two.

I made no claim as to what I wanted at all. Another person started the alternative thread. As I said in one of my replies. I thought it was a pity the threads were spilt. I only pointed out that Tim's question was itself open to some very basic questioning; something that BuMW could probably do without too much help from anyone here, I confess. I thought that Tim had launched quite a good idea. If though he cannot stand having to support his findings or aspirations, that's a pity....BuMW will marmalise him...or, more likely, ignore him....

Robin (good egg that he appears to be) had a go at defending it (married to the second alternative thread).....until he too fell....... when Tim said he only wanted one sort of answer.....which rather left the good egg, Robin, beaten.

If you like, I will write to BuMW to ask them.....it's not very difficult.....I had already asked them what the damned controller did (or did you miss that).

Better still, maybe you should write to BuMW? Tim has shown you the way..... Either way, let me know, please.... Your call...

Good God you have a lot to say.... do you ride much?
Have you broken down in the desert on an 'UNSTOPABLE' BuMW in the dark?
Just keep it coming! Can see why Tim pull the posts.

 

[Wapping]

Good God you have a lot to say.... do you ride much?
Have you broken down in the desert on an 'UNSTOPABLE' BuMW in the dark?
Just keep it coming! Can see why Tim pull the posts.

.......not as many miles as some, perhaps, but quite possibly more than many.......What has that got to do with the price of fish?

...No...is it somehow compulsory? I can appreciate that Tim helped you when your controller went US in Morocco; questions about unknown symptoms and apparently no spare carried but what else? The selfsame Tim pops up in my 'Work around thread' asking if I had any response from BuMW to a question I had about the controller's purpose.

You do seem to have missed the point by rather a wide mark. If you take the trouble to read all that I have posted, you will see that I was in agreement with Tim but perhaps not with his methods of capturing the information, flawed as it was. Others took it upon themselves to split threads, start new ones. At the risk of being indiscreet, I did receive a PM from the host of the second thread, inviting me to comment. I didn't bother. I did though receive another PM, from another of the more humorous contributors to the threads (and others) with quite a simple but funny joke at Tim's expense. That will keep to myself, too.

I am more than happy to take up the issue with BuMW, if Tim doesn't want to. As I said, it's not difficult at all to write a vaguely sensible letter. You seemed happy enough when I took BuMW, Devitt and NIG to task for three months over Moroccan insurance, or was that just because you felt it benefited you? Though, turning back to fuel pump regulator issues, it's only polite to leave the first refusal to st247. Equally, I do not mind if you want to do it, it's only fair after all. When all is said and done, no matter what, it's just a motorbike.....

PS Does the UNSTOPABLE (your capitals) refer to the brake failure concerns? If so, you are probably in the wrong thread.

 

[judge]

Hmmm thought my comments modded from the other thread would've arrived here

No? Ah well guess they were too testy for consumption

You guys carry on - think I'll hang up my Devil's advocate coat and black hat

Bon chance 1200 owners and big hugs and kisses to the bmwdontcareII brigade

 

[Wapping]

Summary: 105 so far with the numbers rising dramatically as the GS population grows/becomes older. At this rate 2008 could see more than 65 failures in the UKGSer community.

Ah ha...

Are you back on the case, water cooled calculator at the ready?

If so, jolly good! Really....jolly good....

There appears to be two budding aspirants (or maybe not) to take up the cudgel with BuMW, should you be tiring after two days of data collection. Failing that (and the other two), PM me the numbers and I'll write to BuMW.

I have got an idea how your straw poll could have been conducted much more simply...and maybe with a lot more accuracy.....it's all in how you ask the question......never mind, too late now.

 

[Wapping]

Hmmm thought my comments modded from the other thread would've arrived here

No? Ah well guess they were too testy for consumption

That's a first. The Judge has been judged....

 

[st247]

Not at all.

If you read what I said, I was suggesting a method to make use of the list, now that Tim has it. Not give up at the first bit of comment (from any quarter) that he comes across. Hence....he fell at the first...or maybe never came out of the stalls. Maybe I should have said, never came out of the stalls, properly? Is that better? I also put forward an opinion that large entities could be fought but it requires patience, not dummy spitting on day two.

I think you'll find Tim didn't have all the information at the time , so suggesting that he makes use of an incomplete list is, at the least, a strange way of fighting corporate indifference. They can be fought as you say, the difficulty here is the usual English passtime of knocking someone for trying.

I only pointed out that Tim's question was itself open to some very basic questioning; something that BuMW could probably do without too much help from anyone here, i confess.

Very kind of you to point that out i'm sure

I thought that Tim had launched quite a good idea. If though he cannot stand having to support his findings or aspirations, that's a pity....BuMW will marmalise him...or, more likely, ignore him...

See there it is again, why should Tim have to stand up to your or anyone else scrutiny? He started a straightforward thread asking for details of breakdowns, i'd have thought it was obvious what he intended doing. It's not as though he was asking for bank account numbers.

If you like, I will write to BuMW to ask them.....it's not very difficult.....I had already asked them what the damned controller did (or did you miss that).

Better still, maybe you should write to BuMW? Tim has shown you the way..... Either way, let me know, please.... Your call...

Given the insurance green card campaign (second or third fence?), yes i'd gladly write the letter (and i'll even spell check it) if Tim doesn't want to.

 

[Wapping]

I think you'll find Tim didn't have all the information at the time , so suggesting that he makes use of an incomplete list is, at the least, a strange way of fighting corporate indifference. They can be fought as you say, the difficulty here is the usual English passtime of knocking someone for trying.



Very kind of you to point that out i'm sure




See there it is again, why should Tim have to stand up to your or anyone else scrutiny? He started a straightforward thread asking for details of breakdowns, i'd have thought it was obvious what he intended doing. It's not as though he was asking for bank account numbers.



Given the insurance green card campaign (second or third fence?), yes i'd gladly write the letter (and i'll even spell check it) if Tim doesn't want to.

I think you will find that Tim said he had finished collecting the names and had withdrawn from the project. That provoked the dummy spitting retort from some quarters. I simply thought it a pity if two or more days' work were to be wasted and suggested that someone (myself if necessary) took it on. He now seems to have restarted, so all is well.

I agree that it's best to sort the data properly when making any enquiry or comment to anyone.That is what I tried to do (with clear evidence) on the 'Green card' issue. All Tim has at the moment is a list of names of people who, without a doubt, have had their fuel pump controller replaced. I will even grant you the two characters where there may be some doubt (a) One chap who said he wasn't sure and (b) El Gringo's mate from Mexico who had other work done, apparently. But it is nothing more than a list, possibly meaningless unless compared with other data, not least how many bikes have been sold in the UK and how bikes many have not failed. Tim is now trying to extrapolate numbers forward. Yes, I can do that too and come up with similar (or even more frightening conclusions) if I try but the calculation can be re-worked so easily to show there is no real problem. if that is what someone wants to prove.

It is, perhaps, interesting that BuMW have mounted two campaigns to sort 1200 problems. (a) The re-routing of the ABS sensor cable on early 1200's (b) The EWS ring. Both campaigns have, apparently, come as a result of no direct pressure that I know of from UKGSer or any other public forum. Nemezis bangs on about Germany's apparent disquiet over brakes and now hand guards, neither of which seem to bother the UK or UKGSer. It perhaps shows the problem of dealing with large organisations and / or that nothing is ever quite as we perceive it, no matter how good our intentions may be.

Why should Tim stand up to scrutiny? Well, he asked for help on a public forum. The public should be allowed to ask why he is doing it and / or point out any possible faults in his study. Enquiry and re-checking is the basis of any half decent probe into anything. If it upsets Tim, that's sad. BuMW will not hesitate to stonewall him. If, as Dahoom pointed out, Tim can't stand some questioning here, then BuMW will not fear him, that's for certain.

I have now written the final letter to the MD of both BuMW and RBS expressing my (and probably others') disappointment with NIG / BuMW Motorrad's response to insuring travellers in 'exotic' Europe and Morocco. I have also suggested possible routes of cover for those whom NIG's intransigence does not suit. I cannot do much more, short of becoming BuMW's insurance broker....a task I would not mind. Good luck with your letter(s) should you decide to help Tim.

Beyond anything more; Good luck to Tim. I welcomed him back in his thread....but he deleted the post. He at least is trying. Others find it easier to simply moan and fill the site with symbols.

 

[Steptoe]

I think you'll find Tim didn't have all the information at the time , so suggesting that he makes use of an incomplete list is, at the least, a strange way of fighting corporate indifference. They can be fought as you say, the difficulty here is the usual English passtime of knocking someone for trying.



Very kind of you to point that out i'm sure




See there it is again, why should Tim have to stand up to your or anyone else scrutiny? He started a straightforward thread asking for details of breakdowns, i'd have thought it was obvious what he intended doing. It's not as though he was asking for bank account numbers.



Given the insurance green card campaign (second or third fence?), yes i'd gladly write the letter (and i'll even spell check it) if Tim doesn't want to.

Your getting personal and missing the object of your frustrations, which would be put to better use against the object of your dissatisfaction .

Wapping seems to be on the same side, and just making comments on improving the data collection and relevance. Rather than a confrontational in your face take it or leave it statement, which seems to have divided riders who should, in theory, be on the same side with the possibilty of them having the same problem.
As Wapping has suggested, if the potential recipients of this problem are in disagreement, BWM will be laughing all the way to the fuel controller bank should you choose to start waving statistics from a UKGSer mori poll at them.