Engine will not crank. I

[Bobnostart]

I'm the proud owner of a 2015 R1200RT LE. About six weeks ago it refused to crank over. Replaced the 8 year old battery and it worked for about a week.
So the fault is, ignition on, normal boot up, gear in neutral, side stand up (on centre stand), battery volts 12.2, press start button, one click of the start relay but no start. There is no significant drop in voltage. I think the start relay is coming on then straight off again.
I've replaced the battery, start relay and the starter motor (suspect low insulation) but to no avail. I have wired the stater motor up to a spare battery and successfully cranked the engine over.
All the three fuses are good.
Starter motors have been bench checked and work fine.
I've inspected and continuity checked the start/stop switch to the ECU, all checks out good.
By fitting a 12vdc test lamp in place of the starter motor (test lamp draws 2 amps) and pressing the start button, the lamp lights up and I can hear the start relay click.
The main relay has been removed and bench tested, all okay
The heavy duty wiring has been inspected and all looks good.
Hopefully will be receiving a GS -911 tomorrow to download the error codes
Cannot face the local BMW dealer who wants £108/hour just to plug in their code reader.
If anyone has had a fault anything like this please let me know.
Thanks.

 

[icedfusion]

checked the side stand switch?

 

[Bobnostart]

checked the side stand switch?

Yes I've checked the side stand switch and the gear interlock. The problem is the ECU is allowing a start with a test lamp in place of the stater motor. But when the stater motor is connected it trips immediately. If it was a faulty side stand switch the lamp would not light. It's a bit of a head scratcher.

 

[Santa-2512]

Have you tried removing and checking the starter?

Sounds like a short on one of the windings

 

[Bobnostart]

Have you tried removing and checking the starter?

Sounds like a short on one of the windings

The starter has been off three times (not an easy job). I've dismantled the old starter and found it in very good condition. Plenty of meat on the brushes and no signs of burning. I did suspect low insulation hence the purchase of a brand new starter. Both have been bench checked and sound great. With the new starter fitted, I connected the battery direct to the starter with a spare starter relay in the circuit. The engine cranks lovely. Reconnecting the bikes electrics to the stater, no crank???

 

[Santa-2512]

Remove the original relay and try the replacement in its place (make sure the repalcement is the same type / spec as the original relay)

Sounds like the original relay may be faulty / dying / dead

 

[KMD]

I would suggest you check all of your earth connections. The last time I had a problem like this was on a camper van, and it was traced to an earth strap which wasn’t properly secured.

 

[Bobnostart]

Remove the original relay and try the replacement in its place (make sure the repalcement is the same type / spec as the original relay)

Sounds like the original relay may be faulty / dying / dead

Done that. The starter relay is fine

 

[Pukmeister]

I've had relays that test fine but fail under load.

I would replace the starter relay and check all feeds and earths.

Do you have an Amp Clamp that measures DC ??

 

[Bobnostart]

I've had relays that test fine but fail under load.

I would replace the starter relay and check all feeds and earths.

Do you have an Amp Clamp that measures DC ??

It's a brand new starter relay. Don't have an Amp Clamp. Will by-pass the three feeds and see what happens. That's battery +ve to starter relay, starter relay to starter +ve then starter earth back to the battery. I have done this before but one cable at a time. It's all very time consuming but I'm determined to fix the fault.

 

[Pukmeister]

If the relay has been replaced with a new item I would then be checking the fit of the relay in its socket. A badly fitting or loose spade connector in the relay socket could give a no-crank symptom you describe (simple stuff first).

Your diagnosis suggest it isn't the starter, the battery or the relay if you can link out the pilot signal by 'hot wire' to pull in the starter relay and crank the bike on the button.

Hard to diagnose via telepathy but I presume if you use a test lamp between the incoming pilot signal at the relay socket and a good ground point you get a solid steady glow when thumbing the starter button ??

 

[Bobnostart]

If the relay has been replaced with a new item I would then be checking the fit of the relay in its socket. A badly fitting or loose spade connector in the relay socket could give a no-crank symptom you describe (simple stuff first).

Your diagnosis suggest it isn't the starter, the battery or the relay if you can link out the pilot signal by 'hot wire' to pull in the starter relay and crank the bike on the button.

Hard to diagnose via telepathy but I presume if you use a test lamp between the incoming pilot signal at the relay socket and a good ground point you get a solid steady glow when thumbing the starter button ??

Todays update, Using two batteries, one for the bike and one for the starter relay. Put 12 volts into the start relay control with bike powered up electrically. Bike cranks over beautifully. This proves the relay, starter and heavy duty electric cables are okay.
My GS-911 arrived this afternoon. Downloaded the codes, lots of them, mainly nuisance ones. Cleared the codes to be left with "Engine Exhaust Butter Fly Valve in wrong position. The butter fly valve is seized and soaking in WD 40 for the night. Once free I'm hoping to clear the fault and maybe start the engine.
Fingers crossed.

 

[Mr Bean]

I thought that less than 12.5v was effectively too low and the voltage (to be considered good) needed to be above that?

 

[DR268]

at 12.2v your battery is only 60% charged, I doubt that will be enough to start it

as mr bean has noted it needs to be 12.6 to be fully charged

get it running and put a multimeter between the positive and negative and see if its giving 14.4v (ish) this will prove its charging correctly.

if lower or much higher you have charging issues

 

[Bobnostart]

at 12.2v your battery is only 60% charged, I doubt that will be enough to start it

as mr bean has noted it needs to be 12.6 to be fully charged

get it running and put a multimeter between the positive and negative and see if its giving 14.4v (ish) this will prove its charging correctly.

if lower or much higher you have charging issues

Both of my bike batteries are full charged using the BMW charger. 12 vdc will be enough to start the bike. "Get it running", I've been trying for the past six weeks to get it running. It's a tough one.

 

[DR268]

Both of my bike batteries are full charged using the BMW charger. 12 vdc will be enough to start the bike. "Get it running", I've been trying for the past six weeks to get it running. It's a tough one.

12.0 volts will really struggle to start a twin

get an accurate voltage reading across your battery, you need to get it up to 12.5volts minimum

you have tried everything else, you need to eliminate the battery or maybe your charger

it started for a week with a new battery and then the problem returned, could point to a slowly draining battery/lack of charge

have you tried to start it with a decent set of jump leads off a running car ?

 

[Rushy]

12.0 volts will really struggle to start a twin

get an accurate voltage reading across your battery, you need to get it up to 12.5volts minimum

you have tried everything else, you need to eliminate the battery or maybe your charger

it started for a week with a new battery and then the problem returned, could point to a slowly draining battery/lack of charge

have you tried to start it with a decent set of jump leads off a running car ?

I was told never to do it with a car engine that’s actually running….I thought the voltage could be too high and potentially damage a bikes electronics?

 

[DR268]

I was told never to do it with a car engine that’s actually running….I thought the voltage could be too high and potentially damage a bikes electronics?

join the positives first then negatives to avoid spikes, then start car

car works on exact same principle as the bike so will be fine

there will be plenty of cranking power

 

[Santa-2512]

Todays update, Using two batteries, one for the bike and one for the starter relay. Put 12 volts into the start relay control with bike powered up electrically. Bike cranks over beautifully. This proves the relay, starter and heavy duty electric cables are okay.

I think this is actually part of your problem,

Without wishing to seem negative or dismissive of the work you have done.

Focus on the real issue, not workarounds which are potentially steering you in the wrong direction

I think the fault either lies with the starter motor, or the starter relay / wiring

I know you say you've checked the starter and it looks good, that means nothing i'm afraid

I had a starter checked by a reman company who gave it a clean bill of health ,

( it was fu*cked) only a new starter cured the fault.

You need a quite specific set of parameters to be met before start occurs

The voltage to the starter needs to be above a set voltage / amps anything less, and it wont go

As mentioned, you need a clamp meter to see whats being drawn when you press the starter button.

You either have a power draw before the starter motor is energised,

A high internal resistance within the starter which the starter circuit cannot overcome

A failure of the relay /wiring to pull the low 12V side to high


Another thing which is troubling is why wont it fire?

If spinning the starter via external power, and all start parameters are met, the bike should fire ,

going back to basics

The start sequence should be (not necessarily in this order)

Ignition on

Ecu sends ready flag to fuel pump

Fuel pump primes and sends ok flag to ecu

Ecu sends ready flag to exhaust

Exhaust cycles and send flag to ecu ( an nok here wont prevent starting)

Cam and crank sensor pulse generators are set to on

Starter pressed - starter turns

Engine turns and injector fires & when TDC reached & spark generated

If ignition occurs - cam and crank pulse generators give increased readings

ECU seens values from Cam & Crank pulse generators and turns injectors on

If the Cam and crank sensor readings dont increase the injectors are turned off to prevent flooding

In order of cheapness

relay

wiring

battery

Starter

There was a similar post a while back where the OP had changed the starter (ebay or similar ) due to starting issues , and the bike still wouldnt start

turns out he'd replaced a faulty starter with another faulty starter

 

[Santa-2512]

join the positives first then negatives to avoid spikes, then start car

car works on exact same principle as the bike so will be fine

there will be plenty of cranking power

Dont start the car, a healthy car battery alone will give the required kick to a flat / low battery

you run the risk of killing the ecu on the newer bikes , they are sensitive to over voltage