EVO Brakes

[Myke Rocks]

BMW deletions etc

Sorry. had to go to bridge last night.

Re; Horn. At the same time as BMW deleted the servo, they also deleted the decent horn previously fitted & replaced it with a mere squeak.
I suggested that this was a safety measure as well, to match the removal of the servo.
Re Servos. If you check my posts on the subject, you will see that I am happy with the servo fitted to my bike. I do not have an issue with it.

You do.

Another reply to this string gave a very well qualified response as to why he is unhappy with them. He had failures.

You have only stated that they are rubbish, but do not provide evidence other than hearsay as to why. Thus the question regarding statistial analysis.
I do not need to provide such an analysis to back up the statement that I am happy with the servo. You do.

To provide an example. Fuel pump controller failures.

I have had one failure. A friend has had 3. This site provides a string where failures are logged, & the failure rate is unacceptable.
Most of my colleagues now carry a spare controller with them.

If you feel that the servos are so bad, why not start a similar string to log failure rates.

Result will be very interesting - either way!

 

[Steptoe]

Re Servos. If you check my posts on the subject, you will see that I am happy with the servo fitted to my bike. I do not have an issue with it.

You do.



If you feel that the servos are so bad, why not start a similar string to log failure rates.

Result will be very interesting - either way!

Everybody is very happy with their servos - until they fail. Which it will at some point being an electrical appliance.

And you keep ignoring the fact that BMW themselves have pulled it from production. If everyone was happy, why ??

i don't have servo brakes, and have no interest in having servo brakes so why should i do a survey for something that i have no interest in having and if i did is no longer available.

I see too many problems with customers servos, and am now a deft hand at removing them and rewiring the brake circuits and brake lines. So go figure.

Your happy, that's all fine and good. But don't deny there is a problem with the servo system, which was the original question in this thread.

 

[sockpuppet]

You have only stated that they are rubbish, but do not provide evidence other than hearsay as to why.

It weighs 10 kilos - on a bike that is already (some would argue) too heavy that is a lot just for a brake and ABS system.

A failure in it leaves you with little braking ability. Will mean end of trip fine if you never leave Europe though I do recall a well documented problem with and actor who took his mate on a trip....wouldn't have happened to normal brakes.

Its a very expensive part to replace. The GSA is an adventure bike - I wouldn't like to think the cost of getting one in the middle of Mali.

Don't get me started on that fecking stupid noise it makes.

There was nothing wrong with the ABS/non servo system - why introduce something that is more complex and doesn't add any value. It may add value to a 1150RT two up doing continental roads but to a "go anywhere" bike adding it to the GS was a mistake as it adds little value and more problems (IMO).


Its horses for courses. If you tour two up on the roads then your fine. However at the moment I'm deep into planning mode for Africa next year - my needs are different and therefore the servo doesn't fit which is the only issue with the BMW approach. They make a standard bike and change bits (to make it an RT, GS, S etc). That approach works well but not all the time.

 

[Sgt Bilco]

Myke Rocks

Do you really believe that a company as large as BuMW would drop something as major as servo`s because of rider reaction??? There has to be a mechanical, build or safety issue before any manufacturer will drop something they initially thought was a great idea. I applaud BuMW for their decision because they were obviously wrong for what ever reason they give. I happen to believe it was a mixture of the 3.

I had servo`s on my 1150 GSA and never liked them because they grabbed at slow speed and I was always wary of a failure.

When I bought my 06 1200GSA I was delighted that they had gone back to a normal set up because I can tell you the brakes are very powerful and more than up to the task. I also didn`t want ABS because in my opinion, it kicks in way too early and is another complication I didn`t want.

I`m no riding god (as lots on here will confirm) but I`ve never had an incident where ABS would have helped in 43,000 miles. Maybe it`s just that I ride in the bikes and my own limits

It`s personal choice on ABS and it`s definately not "point proven" that ABS is safer on a bike as you suggest!

 

[ClassicBertha]

Evo system

Thanks for the responses so far. I have found this very informative.

I am still curious as to how the EVO/ABS system actually works

If the Servo packs up do you really have no residual braking whatsoever? I find that idea scary enough to never buy a bike with it on.

Thanks again gents, and sorry for mechanical ignorance on my part. I was just interested in this area.

 

[sockpuppet]

I am still curious as to how the EVO/ABS system actually works

If the Servo packs up do you really have no residual braking whatsoever? I find that idea scary enough to never buy a bike with it on.

The servo is a pump. When you squeeze the brake lever it activates the pump which applies the brakes. If it fails you are left with residual braking you just have to pull the lever a lot harder.

 

[Myke Rocks]

re: abs

Myke Rocks

Do you really believe that a company as large as BuMW would drop something as major as servo`s because of rider reaction??? There has to be a mechanical, build or safety issue before any manufacturer will drop something they initially thought was a great idea. I applaud BuMW for their decision because they were obviously wrong for what ever reason they give. I happen to believe it was a mixture of the 3.

I had servo`s on my 1150 GSA and never liked them because they grabbed at slow speed and I was always wary of a failure.

When I bought my 06 1200GSA I was delighted that they had gone back to a normal set up because I can tell you the brakes are very powerful and more than up to the task. I also didn`t want ABS because in my opinion, it kicks in way too early and is another complication I didn`t want.

I`m no riding god (as lots on here will confirm) but I`ve never had an incident where ABS would have helped in 43,000 miles. Maybe it`s just that I ride in the bikes and my own limits

It`s personal choice on ABS and it`s definately not "point proven" that ABS is safer on a bike as you suggest!

Last year, in town, whilst travelling at under 20mph, a lady crossed my path from an oncoming lane of traffic, without looking to see if anyone was coming.
I triggered the ABS stopping. I would have hit her only for it.
No element of "On the limit"
ABS only has to work once in a rider's lifetime to be worth having.
I have accidentally lowsided several times due to rider error. In both cases, whilst travelling in a straight line. Once stupidity, once diesel. In both cases it as the application, momentarily, of too much back brake. Once again, no element of hard driving. In both cases, ABS would have prevented even a fright, never mind an off.
No, ABS has nothing ( in my mind) to do with hard riding. It has everything to do with one's somewhat panic stricken responses in an emergency, and moderating them slightly to prevent a lockup in these circumstances.
Read the previously attached string, with particual reference to paragraphs 6 & 7 after the section "Can a good rider really do better than ABS"
http://faq.f650.com/GSFAQs/TheABSFAQ.htm#Can a Good Rider REALLY do better than ABSwith
Myke

 

[sockpuppet]

That's nice but still doesn't refer to the servo as the original question did.

 

[GhostCav]

I'm perfectly happy with my non servo non ABS 1150, I just wanted the most basic of systems for easy home maintainance. I also didnt like the ABS on the 650GS's I used to ride (over 100,000miles). I found it too intrusive & whilst it worked at times I found that sometimes on greasy roads it would simply give up after a few abortive braking attempts. I found I rode worse with the ABS on for the first 10,000 miles, I guess like car drivers with ABS, I expected the ABS to do everything for me. Thankfully I had a Fireblade at the time as well that corrected my reliance on such devices as it was void of them of course.

Our 650's (company bikes) went through ABS parts at an alarming rate even for the amount of miles done. In the end we just disabled the ABS when getting on the bike & put a little sticker over the flashing yellow light on the dash

 

[basilbrush]

It is very difficult, if not impossible, to make a balanced judgement about the reliability of servo brakes based on anything written on this website. There is a complete absence of credible evidence on which a risk assessment could be made. One or two stories about failures from riders or mechanics is not a sound basis on which to proceed.

There must have been thousands of servo-braked bikes produced and we do not seem to know, and have no basis for assessing, the percentage failure rate and the circumstances. Most of the opinions expressed are just that; opinions. There's no facts.

At the NEC bike show last autumn a BMW rep told me the servo brakes are still fitted to the big K tourer. No doubt someone will know if this is accurate.

There is a great deal of neuroticism shown by contributors to these forums which makes their posts entertaining to read but must give them sleepness nights worrying about what's likely to go wrong next. Having said that I really enjoy reading the technical posts and have probably read them all over the last year or two so do keep them coming.

 

[motobiker]

If a good friend was to ask me which ABS equipped 1150 to go for i would say pre 2002 ABS only - or non servo. Be patient and wait for a good one to turn up.

As we know servo does fail and the choice becomes a stark one.. have it removed and lose the ABS too as a side effect. Or pay a lot of money to have it replaced or repaired (if possible)

Seen too many chaps on this site who have removed their servo system due to failure to be able to recommend it to anyone with a clear conscience. At least if the ABS system goes wonky it will have no effect on the braking. And can easily be disabled for those occasions when its unecessary.

How awful to buy a bright and shiney (2nd hand) bike only to have this as a problem... why take the risk when there are so many pre servo bikes out there.. many mint low mileage examples to choose from.

The Servo is in my opinion a clear example of a 'solution to a problem that never existed'

 

[Sgt Bilco]

Last year, in town, whilst travelling at under 20mph, a lady crossed my path from an oncoming lane of traffic, without looking to see if anyone was coming.
I triggered the ABS stopping. I would have hit her only for it.
No element of "On the limit"
ABS only has to work once in a rider's lifetime to be worth having.
I have accidentally lowsided several times due to rider error. In both cases, whilst travelling in a straight line. Once stupidity, once diesel. In both cases it as the application, momentarily, of too much back brake. Once again, no element of hard driving. In both cases, ABS would have prevented even a fright, never mind an off.
No, ABS has nothing ( in my mind) to do with hard riding. It has everything to do with one's somewhat panic stricken responses in an emergency, and moderating them slightly to prevent a lockup in these circumstances.
Read the previously attached string, with particual reference to paragraphs 6 & 7 after the section "Can a good rider really do better than ABS"
http://faq.f650.com/GSFAQs/TheABSFAQ.htm#Can a Good Rider REALLY do better than ABSwith
Myke

Guess we`ll agree to disagree

 

[basilbrush]

If a good friend was to ask me which ABS equipped 1150 to go for i would say pre 2002 ABS only - or non servo. Be patient and wait for a good one to turn up.

As we know servo does fail and the choice becomes a stark one.. have it removed and lose the ABS too as a side effect. Or pay a lot of money to have it replaced or repaired (if possible)

Seen too many chaps on this site who have removed their servo system due to failure to be able to recommend it to anyone with a clear conscience. At least if the ABS system goes wonky it will have no effect on the braking. And can easily be disabled for those occasions when its unecessary.

How awful to buy a bright and shiney (2nd hand) bike only to have this as a problem... why take the risk when there are so many pre servo bikes out there.. many mint low mileage examples to choose from.

The Servo is in my opinion a clear example of a 'solution to a problem that never existed'

I doubt BMW saw servo brakes as a 'solution to a problem' More likely one of the many features added to bikes simply to increase choice just like heated grips, adjustable suspension etc., etc. Lots of components on planes, boats, trains & bikes fail but it doesn't stop people using them. In the absence of credible evidence your recommendations seem irrational. I love my servo brakes and will go on doing so until they pack up!

 

[motobiker]

.... one of the many features added to bikes simply to increase choice....

In the absence of credible evidence your recommendations seem irrational. I love my servo brakes and will go on doing so until they pack up!

you're having a laugh.

you only need to watch this particular section for a while to see that there's nothing irrational about my thoughts on 'servo'.

It would seem that BMW themselves agreed. and stopped providing it. by your logic an obviously irrational decision on their part.

How could adding servo 'increase choice' when it was mandatory if you wanted ABS at the time?

One only has to read the oft repeated experiences of those owners who have experienced 'failure' of this particular gimmick to see that its definitely NOT to be recommended.

And so if, as i said, a 'good friend' of mine was to ask. I would say - if you want an ABS equipped 1150 buy one that doesn't include servo. Thats pre 2002. ABS without the flim flam.

Irrational it may be - but I actually care about my friends.

 

[Ionlab]

Well there was a reason for the introduction of the servos. To speed up reaction time in the ABS. Now with more advanced/powerful electronics this is not needed any more and they dropped it.
And as discussed in ADVrider the residual braking when servos fail should be strong enough. But there is a lot of sensitivity to air trapped in the system. In that case residual braking is as good as mountain bike brakes = not good at all.

 

[Comfy Old Boots]

i prefare the brakes on my '99 r850r to my '03 servo assisted r1150ga. Personally, there is nothing more reassuring, than stompin' on my NEW rear disc with new pads. On the r series, you can't do a skid easily. You can't really do a skid at all but the brembo's work. the evo's I have don't seem to have the same feel. Not sure about the hydrolic clutch either but i've the best of both worlds bit of work to get te abs out though. certain wires have to be connected etc...

also, to the last poser before me, bleeding the servo system is easiest no?

it does have good points

 

[MikeP]

Evo brakes:

IIRC, there are three versions. The first was never referred to as Evo 1 (presumably because BMW believed it was right first time?).

Evo II, is Servo-assisted ABS and on the GS, the ABS can be switched off by the rider. The Servo-assist remains. The brakes are semi-linked; operating the hand lever operates front and rear brakes. Operating the foot pedal works the rear brake only. The braking force applied to the wheels is determined by the bike (according to BMW, this is worked out by the amount of lever pressure and the individual wheel speed measured by the ABS).

Evo III, is an updated version of II. The visible difference is that the brake calliper is badged BMW instead of Brembo. There were detailed changes to the internals making the Servo-assist less "fierce". Evo III was carried-over to the 1200 models and remained until the servo-assistance was deleted.

I think that Evo III was introduced at the same time as the Twin-Spark on 1150 models.

The above is not a definitive answer, it represents the information that I have found on the subject.

As to use; it seems that people (like me) are happy enough with the Evo brakes until something goes wrong (despite the posts here, it rarely does go wrong).

Evo III is much better in use than the earlier versions. If you are looking to buy a bike fitted with Evo brakes, I'd suggest that the later version is preferable.

If you are in the market for another bike and your budget or your preference, restricts you to bikes of an age that Evo brakes were fitted, you will find that those without ABS (and therefore without the servo-assist) are few and far between.

If your budget/preference includes ABS, you have no option but take the servo-assist too.

Whether the servo-assist was supreme arrogance by BMW etc. is of no real consequence if you want a bike of a certain age/value (it's the usual blether).

No amount of such blether will alter the fact that it's out there. People live with servo-assist, some people remove it and some people avoid it altogether. It's your choice.

 

[MattW]

The 'Evo' thing is new to me - as far as 11xx's are concerned (all bets are off with those new-fanged 1200 things ) I've only seen them referred to as ABS1, ABS2 and iABS (the servo version). The oilheads started with ABS2.

Good information here:
http://www.largiader.com/abs/absfault.html

My 2p: I like the ABS brakes on my 1100 - all the talk about good riders not needing ABS is complete tosh (in my personal opinion of course ). However, if / when I change bikes it'll be to a non-servo 1150. For me, the added complexity and potential for faults in iABS as these bikes get older (together with the cost of fixing those faults) isn't worth any perceived benefit. But as Mike says, horses for courses...

 

[Ionlab]

AFAIK Evo relates to the brake system only (calipers, disks, maybe cylinders) and not to the ABS. EVO was introduced in 02 when the badging on the calipers was changed and has nothing to do with ABS2 or iABS. iABS = Servo assisted + linked. ABS2 is easier to bleed than iABS which is sensitive to air bubbles (when servos are not working=residual).

From 1200GS and on i have not followed the advances further.

 

[Michael R1150GS Adventure]

Avoid if at all possible! My brake ecu failed at milau bridge and left me terrified as it gave no warning. Lucky warranty repair but needed to ride a thousand miles home passing bricks every time I wanted the brakes to work. Concur with previous comments - no servo = crap and very dangerous brakes. My choice would be to not have any of it and do it the best way, typical arrogance of Bmw not listening to feedback.