Ews

Firstly.. I want to thank EVERYONE who has contributed to this post with extremely knowledgeable information... I now have the confidence ( and hopefully the skill) to dive into that loom that is as thick as my wrist... on reflection replacing all four wires at once is a bit sledge hammerish.... one question. Why is it not 4 wires . But 2 wires and a twisted pair... wats the difference.. I’ll keep you informed as to my progress...
Thanks again


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I think we were all talking about the same general idea. Establishing that there is a break in the wire and fixing it.

The only difference potentially being in establishing that there is a broken wire / wires before cutting into the harness. Continuity test, particularly if done as a load-test with a bulb, is a good way to establish it. I have seen situations where the copper has broken through stretching but the [more flexible] sheathing is completely intact. Those are really hard to spot by visually inspecting the harness, that's all.

In any case, cutting connectors off and splicing in other bits of wire _before_ establishing this is where the problem is is not what you should be doing glenn.1. :)
 
Firstly.. one question. Why is it not 4 wires . But 2 wires and a twisted pair... wats the difference..

In short - Electromagnetic interference ["noise"]. Probably not worth going too deep into it before we've established whether it is on or off... :)
 
Quick update... took the bike to have the codes read.. ECU non responsive we’re the guys exactly words ... ordered a new one from James Sherlock .. only thing is it only comes with one key.... BMW won’t make a new key unless I can prove I own the bike the ECU came from... don’t Timsons do a coded key...by the time I get this bike going it’s gunner be winter again...lol


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Quick update... took the bike to have the codes read.. ECU non responsive we’re the guys exactly words ... ordered a new one from James Sherlock .. only thing is it only comes with one key.... BMW won’t make a new key unless I can prove I own the bike the ECU came from... don’t Timsons do a coded key...by the time I get this bike going it’s gunner be winter again...lol


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Take the Bill of sale from Sherlocks to the dealer, (and ask Sherlocks if they can provide the Vin number showing the bike dismanteled / scrapped)

explain it's from a scrapped bike


Not sure if Timspons do coded keys , pop in or ring your local place
 
I suspected that might be the case. But I didn't want to go to the worst-case scenario first. So, did you get the full set? Ignition/tank/seat locks and KOMBI [i.e. clocks] ? That is good. Do you mind giving us the ball-park what you paid for it?

- Timpsons - You can ask but I am pretty certain that it is a no. They can cut the metal part but they will not be able to make you the key transponder based on the one you have. Even BMW dealers cannot "make" you the key. The legend goes that the keys for EWS systems are already made (IIRC, you can only have 7 of them per ECU/vehicle). When you order one, the mother-ship sends the key to your dealer; who then hands it over to you. Once you use up all 7 key-slots... it is new ECU time with 7 empty slots. Some modern BMWs (cars?) come with ability to "teach" them a new key [if you can already start the car]; But, to my knowledge, there is no way to do that on these bikes.

Hopefully you got a resolution...
 
I suspected that might be the case. But I didn't want to go to the worst-case scenario first. So, did you get the full set? Ignition/tank/seat locks and KOMBI [i.e. clocks] ? That is good. Do you mind giving us the ball-park what you paid for it?

- Timpsons - You can ask but I am pretty certain that it is a no. They can cut the metal part but they will not be able to make you the key transponder based on the one you have. Even BMW dealers cannot "make" you the key. The legend goes that the keys for EWS systems are already made (IIRC, you can only have 7 of them per ECU/vehicle). When you order one, the mother-ship sends the key to your dealer; who then hands it over to you. Once you use up all 7 key-slots... it is new ECU time with 7 empty slots. Some modern BMWs (cars?) come with ability to "teach" them a new key [if you can already start the car]; But, to my knowledge, there is no way to do that on these bikes.

Hopefully you got a resolution...

I would very very much doubt that 7 keys are made per ECU,

Just think of the logistics 100,000 bikes = 900,000 keys 2x keys per bike & 7 into storage

Where are they stored, who checks when a bike is scrapped off, what do they do with the 7 keys then ??

Urban myth i'm afaid.

All they do is get a blank key with a write once eprom chip, flash the relevant codes and send the key to the dealer

It may be able to count how many keys have been allocated to the engine ecu, & there may be a max number there, but in terms of cutting and storing keys thats a no
 
Yep, the logistics was the reason why I said "The legend goes..." However, I wouldn't be so sure about that. 3 keys of 7 are given to new users ("main", "spare" and the plastic "wallet"-key) and 4 are meant to be retained by BMW. The chips in these keys are PCF7936 and they are not write-once. They are also very small, and storing 4 of them per bike would be little more than storing an A5 envelope with a piece of paper in it.

But neither of us works for BMW so no way to be certain. :)

As you see, I learned a fair bit through research on the subject through necessity, but I am neither a BMW employee nor an "expert" on the subject. All my views are my own and given here with one sole purpose - to try to help someone who is in the same jam I was in.

So, put it this way: if you get Timpsons to cut you a key that starts your bike with you taking the key to them (i.e. not open up the ECU)... then send me your paypal address and I'll send you a fiver to buy you a pint for providing me with education I apparently needed. :) :beerjug: Cheers.
 
I suspected that might be the case. But I didn't want to go to the worst-case scenario first. So, did you get the full set? Ignition/tank/seat locks and KOMBI [i.e. clocks] ? That is good. Do you mind giving us the ball-park what you paid for it?

- Timpsons - You can ask but I am pretty certain that it is a no. They can cut the metal part but they will not be able to make you the key transponder based on the one you have. Even BMW dealers cannot "make" you the key. The legend goes that the keys for EWS systems are already made (IIRC, you can only have 7 of them per ECU/vehicle). When you order one, the mother-ship sends the key to your dealer; who then hands it over to you. Once you use up all 7 key-slots... it is new ECU time with 7 empty slots. Some modern BMWs (cars?) come with ability to "teach" them a new key [if you can already start the car]; But, to my knowledge, there is no way to do that on these bikes.

Hopefully you got a resolution...

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Apparently it’s possible to swap the rubber bit of the key with the chip in and put it on the original key ... so I don’t need to swap the barrel and fuel lid...


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Yep, the logistics was the reason why I said "The legend goes..." However, I wouldn't be so sure about that. 3 keys of 7 are given to new users ("main", "spare" and the plastic "wallet"-key) and 4 are meant to be retained by BMW. The chips in these keys are PCF7936 and they are not write-once. They are also very small, and storing 4 of them per bike would be little more than storing an A5 envelope with a piece of paper in it.

But neither of us works for BMW so no way to be certain. :)

As you see, I learned a fair bit through research on the subject through necessity, but I am neither a BMW employee nor an "expert" on the subject. All my views are my own and given here with one sole purpose - to try to help someone who is in the same jam I was in.

So, put it this way: if you get Timpsons to cut you a key that starts your bike with you taking the key to them (i.e. not open up the ECU)... then send me your paypal address and I'll send you a fiver to buy you a pint for providing me with education I apparently needed. :) :beerjug: Cheers.


No your right there ..


Last time i had a key cut with transponder from timmys was for an early Ford Ka (not mine i hasten to add) they just pulled the transponder from the key

(It sat in the top of grip, in a slot, and they transferred it to a new key blank )..

Depending on where the transponder is on the key, the other alternative may be to fat key.

You get a blank cut to your oringinal key, and cut the transponder off the new key, (assuming its in the upper part of the key) and tape the two keys together

(Fat key) so you have a thick grip / transponder section, and then the normal original key base
 
Wow. That is a really good deal you got there. All those bits for 150 quid is excellent. Well done.

Yes, the rfid transponder is in the top [grip] part of the key. You get a really sharp scalpel and (carefully) cut the rubber part parallel to the table-top (if you imagine the key lying on the table) from the corner. Parallel to the key blade, if you wish, there is even a molding "seam" you can sometimes see) . It is impossible to tell you which side (left or right of the key-fob hole) as the key looks the same from either side. Google PCF7936 to see what you are looking for in the key (or open up the wee plastic key if your bike came with it). The transponder is housed in a little plastic holder inside the molded rubber and It is much easier to put it int the plastic key for a test, if you need to). Treat it carefully. if you lose or damage it, you are back where you started.

Your original ECU will store the Bike's VIN number, options as added at the factory, mileage and information about past faults, the adaptations and the key data. These will all be wrong with the new ECU, obviously, as they are from a donor bike. Swapping the rfid transponder into your original key will leave the original locks on the bike, which is fine. If the spec is exactly the same on the bikes (i.e. ESA, ABS, alarm, etc.) then you won't need re-coding [Well, the mileage will flash all the time because it is a mismatch with the KOMBI (clocks), but that won't stop you running the bike. That is why I was asking about the clocks. (Unless, if you were that lucky that the mileage is within a couple of hundred miles)]

@Santa, Yes, agreed, that would work perfectly fine, mate. The key transponder is the same, the metal bit is relatively easy to copy.

As we are "chewin' the fat" on the topic... There is another [really bad] idea you can do. You can take the RFID chip from the working key and permanently glue it to the ring antenna. That way you downgrade your security to about 1974-level :) where the immobiliser is always seeing things as "A-ok" and you are relying only on the mechanical part of your keys for security. People do this to keep their original keys (says t'Internet, anyways) This is a really bad idea. Don't do this, unless you have to get yourself home [from middle of Gobi desert] as an emergency. You are essentially "deleting" your immobiliser.

Now, Having written all this... I am thinking we should probably ask the mods to trash this topic once you've solved the problem, Glenn.1 . There is way too much info here that can be used to help scrotes steal bikes. (Or am I being naive here and everyone knows all this?) All this info is already available on the net anyways, but took me a long while to put together... why make it easier...

Cheers.
 
Wow. That is a really good deal you got there. All those bits for 150 quid is excellent. Well done.

Yes, the rfid transponder is in the top [grip] part of the key. You get a really sharp scalpel and (carefully) cut the rubber part parallel to the table-top (if you imagine the key lying on the table) from the corner. Parallel to the key blade, if you wish, there is even a molding "seam" you can sometimes see) . It is impossible to tell you which side (left or right of the key-fob hole) as the key looks the same from either side. Google PCF7936 to see what you are looking for in the key (or open up the wee plastic key if your bike came with it). The transponder is housed in a little plastic holder inside the molded rubber and It is much easier to put it int the plastic key for a test, if you need to). Treat it carefully. if you lose or damage it, you are back where you started.

Your original ECU will store the Bike's VIN number, options as added at the factory, mileage and information about past faults, the adaptations and the key data. These will all be wrong with the new ECU, obviously, as they are from a donor bike. Swapping the rfid transponder into your original key will leave the original locks on the bike, which is fine. If the spec is exactly the same on the bikes (i.e. ESA, ABS, alarm, etc.) then you won't need re-coding [Well, the mileage will flash all the time because it is a mismatch with the KOMBI (clocks), but that won't stop you running the bike. That is why I was asking about the clocks. (Unless, if you were that lucky that the mileage is within a couple of hundred miles)]

@Santa, Yes, agreed, that would work perfectly fine, mate. The key transponder is the same, the metal bit is relatively easy to copy.

As we are "chewin' the fat" on the topic... There is another [really bad] idea you can do. You can take the RFID chip from the working key and permanently glue it to the ring antenna. That way you downgrade your security to about 1974-level :) where the immobiliser is always seeing things as "A-ok" and you are relying only on the mechanical part of your keys for security. People do this to keep their original keys (says t'Internet, anyways) This is a really bad idea. Don't do this, unless you have to get yourself home [from middle of Gobi desert] as an emergency. You are essentially "deleting" your immobiliser.

Now, Having written all this... I am thinking we should probably ask the mods to trash this topic once you've solved the problem, Glenn.1 . There is way too much info here that can be used to help scrotes steal bikes. (Or am I being naive here and everyone knows all this?) All this info is already available on the net anyways, but took me a long while to put together... why make it easier...

Cheers.

Most of the key stuff is old school and common knowledge ;)

id forgotten about super gluing the transpoder to the RA ( mind you on a Ford KA, half inching it would have been the best option lol)
 
Yea, I had a few POS-es where supergluing a £20 bill to the inside of the windshield would still not make them attractive enough to make them go away... :)

Glenn, one final pointer to you... just because your ECU is not responding to the ODBII, it does not necessarily mean that the data in it is not accessible. There may be a way to extract the data from your original ECU and write it over the new one (thus keeping the keys and all the rest of the stuff.) Read the "MIGHT BE" bit again. It depends heavily on which part of your ECU actually ceased to function. But, ni any case, you are now getting into the murky realms of ECU cloning and that really is a shady underworld. Still, if you decide to research this, hold off hacking into the keys [we know how keen you are to hack into things! :) ]

And... knowing how your brain works... :) to answer your question - No, BMW will not re-code your second-hand ECU, even if you ask them nicely. :) When you think about it, why would they? According to a report from another member, the new "virgin" ECU cost north of £900 plus the coding to marry it up with your bike, I think the total was just shy of £1200. That was last year.

Good luck mate.
 
Seeing as there is some depth of knowledge on display here, I’ll ask a quick question if you don’t mind.

Gs911 scan of my 2009 Gs came up with a few stored code, mainly relating to low voltage in the past, these cleared ok but I was left with a red EWS error code 10491, this will not clear as it says error is still present.
The funny thing is, the bike was running at the time, it stopped and started with no hesitation and with nothing showing on the dashboard.. How does that work, no evidence of a problem, bike works, no error on dash..

Can’t find anything on web, as far as I can see, error 10491 should prevent the bike staring shouldn’t it?

Sorry for the little thread highjack
 
Seeing as there is some depth of knowledge on display here, I’ll ask a quick question if you don’t mind.

Gs911 scan of my 2009 Gs came up with a few stored code, mainly relating to low voltage in the past, these cleared ok but I was left with a red EWS error code 10491, this will not clear as it says error is still present.
The funny thing is, the bike was running at the time, it stopped and started with no hesitation and with nothing showing on the dashboard.. How does that work, no evidence of a problem, bike works, no error on dash..

Can’t find anything on web, as far as I can see, error 10491 should prevent the bike staring shouldn’t it?

Sorry for the little thread highjack

Sorry, Popell, I cannot explain it. If EWS fault is present, your bike should not start. That is the whole premise behind having an immobiliser device fitted. No valid key comms - no start. The inability to clear the code is correct, as it only clears once communication with the valid key is established. It can become a historic code, in that it will store the time and date when it occurred but not be present (if that makes sense), but that happens after your key has matched the stored info in the ECU and the bike starts. Why does your bike start while the code is present, I really cannot work out logically. To my knowledge, this is alike to the old adage of "being a little bit pregnant". I cannot see how it could be "a little bit off" it is binary, either matches or it doesn't. Maybe BMW put in some algorithm in there that potential interference can be compensated for. Really don't know.

In any case, it presents you with a funny conundrum really: Do you try to "fix" the problem because you can get properly stranded if the ECU does indeed wake up to the fact that it can't read the key and immobilises your bike; Or do you ignore it because of trying to fix it may cause your bike to properly break. i.e. not start at all and potentially give you a great expense. I can't help there either mate.

This is somewhat akin to one of my doctor friends telling me to never have an MRI just because you can. It will likely unearth something you could have really done without knowing about and have a happy and healthy life. Not everything "wrong" requires intervention... :)

You didn't really ask for my opinion, but this is UKGSer, so I'll just go in with both size-12s, as is the norm here :) ...

On the balance of probabilities and me being somewhat risk-averse in this respect (bike cutting out when I need the engine, not liking the idea of sitting on the kerb 100s of miles from home and the fact that the broken wire and intermittent electrical signal *seems to* have contributed to the ECU failure in Glenn.1's case), I'd try to fix it, or at least understand it better. I'd be starting with making sure no other RFID keys are near my bike key , then shoogling the wires (inspecting the loom at known weak point), and then progressing to swapping RingAntenna with a known-good (or new) one. It is a few hours of work and 30-odd quid in total. If you were in Scotland, I'd lend you my spare RA (if the part # matches) to try. Another inmate may help you there if you find one nearer to you.

Good luck mate.
 
it ought to be illegal to sell these "theft kits!


While I completely understand your point, [and agree to a point]... do you think you'd feel differently if facing a near £1200 bill or scrapping your well-maintained bike that to all intends and purposes works, except the bit of malfunctioning electronics is simply preventing it from starting [through no fault of your own]? I think this is another example where reasonable repair costs and reasonable part prices would go far towards deterring theft in the first place...
 


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