Deleted account W
Guest
sandbar said:
My apologies, posted the link before realising it was for the wrong bike. Deleted it but too late for it not to be quoted.
My apologies, posted the link before realising it was for the wrong bike. Deleted it but too late for it not to be quoted.
sandbar
Registered user
JayGee said:
Look - at the end of the day ( and any other cliche that I can think of) there comes an issue of quality. The £60 hugger for a Jap bike probably does a job. All the ones that I have seen at similar prices look as though they are the cheapest possible solutions to a problem. I do not have a problem with that, but that is not the market that Ilmberger, or my company, are aiming at.
Safety, strength and longevity are the primary criteria. Looks and 'pose value' are others.
It is a truism that you will get what you pay for.
It is your choice.
Sandbar
pragmatix
Guest
sandbar said:
Cheap shite in my experiance, bad fit, bad design, fouls subframe on full compression.
You gets what you pay for, anyway a decent hugger in carbon for the 1150 cost nearly the same. A moulded one in some form of "plastic" is £100 and my experiance of that one is poor, bad alignment and dodgy fastners that have to hold on the brake caliper.
Pete A
Russ
Guest
The NWS hugger (which are of good quality and fit) for my old VFR cost £50 + VAT (and was not tatty, or ill-fitting, i'm sure this thread vaguely discusses criticising kit out of hand and casting aspersions 
)
I can't understand why a BMW hugger costs 3-400% more?
Obviously NWS have bigger resources, access to more facilities, but as a larger company these costs are outweighed or counterbalanced by business overheads of running a larger company
)I can't understand why a BMW hugger costs 3-400% more?
Obviously NWS have bigger resources, access to more facilities, but as a larger company these costs are outweighed or counterbalanced by business overheads of running a larger company
Quite right but I would like to pay a bit less even if that means getting a bit less. I have an excellent plastic hugger on my Blackbird, it cost about £60, it doesn't look at good as yours and it possibly won't last as long and has poorer quality fasteners but it still keeps the crap off. There is a market for cheaper huggers ther's just no supplier at the moment so for now I'll manage without and I don't criticise manufacturers, like you, going for the high quality product, it's just not for me at the moment.sandbar said:
The Machine Cat
Guest
This thread is interesting because we are discussing a lot more than mere huggers...
The real question is :
Does suppliers try to squeeze more money out of us because we are riding expensive bikes ?
The real question is :
Does suppliers try to squeeze more money out of us because we are riding expensive bikes ?
TerryM
Guest
sandbar said:
Dear Sandbar,
If you do not understand the concept of price per tonne/kilo/pound, then it is apparent that you have no valid economic industrial base upon which to state an opinion on that point.
Sales agents/importers without design, manufacturing/procurement and distribution experience are out of their depth here.
Perhaps you are familiar with the name of Phil Irving, Chief Designer for Vincent and I believe Velocette. In his publications of the 1960's he actually explained the concept and how it effected the price to the consumer.
This is a common concept wordwide in numerous industries and is particularly prevalent in Germany(where I lived for about 12 years and had my industrial base for 17 years),you could make yourself more aware of it and enhance your procurement capability. Perhaps the simplest example is in sand caste iron or aluminium, where once the tooling is paid for by the buyer then the "pour" is based on a tonnage basis and that is what is bought. Not the number of components.
Now, the laws of physics and economics have not changed in 50 years, and all we are discussing is the source price for the raw(intermediate)materials and the labour to create the finished product. And none of them are anything special in our era.
So what has changed? Could it be that the motorcyclist of today is far less likely than 50 years ago to have a background in engineering or manufacture, and that the salesmen are taking advantage.
And just because these people wish to make unreal profit margins and silence anyone who questions their business practices, am I, having a background which makes this seem transparent, supposed to be PC and not out them??????
And I still need to understand how and why some contributors, stating purely consumer interest, find their interests are so aligned with the guys who charge them such high prices. Somewhat odd do you not think, especially when my protagonists come and go so frequently. But perhaps this is just a reflection of how trusting we Brits have become.
Furthermore, anyone who imports German aftermarket stuff which was actually MADE in Germany is either deluding or masochistic. The Krauts generally outsource almost anything and everything East and Far East and then charge home market prices. So we poor Brits are paying a premium on top of their premium. If you are unceratain on this point check out your 12GS, I believe that the original BMW OEM seat has a Far Eastern origin mark.
Strangely Brits seem to prefer to deal with intermediaries(Krauts?) who introduce another profit margin into the chain, and they always complain about transport costs. I recently checked for freight out of New York to Belfast for motorcycle components and it was about GBP 100 per cubic metre delivered to my door in less than 7 days. And that was not on a competitive tender basis. So road transport out of Germany should be cheaper.
And I am still waiting for Dutch, or anyone else on that side of the discussion, to explain in detail their pricing or , even more fun their charitable not for profit status. Meantime I will content myself with having boosted sales for Dutch, as he claimed a few days ago, before leaving others to defend the cause.
Now, before you get all excited again Sandbar, please just understand that we do not exist to make profit for you guys, even if you choose to pay high prices to equally greedy Krauts. Tell them that their price per kilo is ridiculous for such simplistic designs and fabrications.
And remember what Carroll Smith(who won LeMan for Ford with the GT40's against the Ferrari domination of years)said: " Multiply all claims by salesmen by a factor of 0.25" Personally I think Carroll was being generous. Sorry if you do not share my humour.
sandbar
Registered user
TerryM
I suggest you read my post again. I felt that most of your points were simplistic and naive and, after reading your last post, I still do.
The main reason for my post last night was not your weird ideas about economics, but your opinion that you should be able to use a forum such as this to make all sorts of unsubstantiated and ill informed comments without any form of redress. Oh - I'm sorry - of course I forgot - I should be able to reply but not here, not where you can rant away to your hearts content.
I also do not understand all this business about 'outing'and alias e-mail addresses. I certainly have never tried to hide who I am or what I do. I do not see anybody else trying to hide what they do either.
You are entitled to your opinion and as I understand it you are free to choose to buy what you want, or did I miss out on something?
Perhaps you are not free to choose, perhaps you are fighting some strange forces that are trying to control your actions. Perhaps that automatically means that anybody who does not support your beliefs is therefore one of the 'ungodly' and must at all costs be 'outed' in order to be destroyed.
By the way, do you mean Carroll SHELBY who won Le Mans in a Ford? And was it a GT40 or was it a MK3? There was a GREAT salesman. Cobra - anybody?? Price per tonne/kilo/pound - oh YES!!! What a great example to us all.
Sandbar
I suggest you read my post again. I felt that most of your points were simplistic and naive and, after reading your last post, I still do.
The main reason for my post last night was not your weird ideas about economics, but your opinion that you should be able to use a forum such as this to make all sorts of unsubstantiated and ill informed comments without any form of redress. Oh - I'm sorry - of course I forgot - I should be able to reply but not here, not where you can rant away to your hearts content.
I also do not understand all this business about 'outing'and alias e-mail addresses. I certainly have never tried to hide who I am or what I do. I do not see anybody else trying to hide what they do either.
You are entitled to your opinion and as I understand it you are free to choose to buy what you want, or did I miss out on something?
Perhaps you are not free to choose, perhaps you are fighting some strange forces that are trying to control your actions. Perhaps that automatically means that anybody who does not support your beliefs is therefore one of the 'ungodly' and must at all costs be 'outed' in order to be destroyed.
By the way, do you mean Carroll SHELBY who won Le Mans in a Ford? And was it a GT40 or was it a MK3? There was a GREAT salesman. Cobra - anybody?? Price per tonne/kilo/pound - oh YES!!! What a great example to us all.
Sandbar
CoolCarbon
Guest
I started to read the latest edition of 'Why use one Word when Ten will do' TerryM saga but almost lost the will to live as my eyes began to glaze over!
You can 'Out' all you want Terry and claim to see 'Aliases' here there and everywhere, but when all said and done (there, I managed to get a cliché in as well), it is only your opinion and the mere fact that others don't agree doesn't mean they are anymore wrong than you seem to think you are right!
With the wealth of experience and insight you claim, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and produce something for the price you seem to think is possible?
Oh, and as far as not calling our collective products Shyte, go back to your first post dated 15.10.04 at 16:04 and re-read the second to last sentence.
You really could do to get out your comfortable Slippers, Fill the Bowl of your Pipe with a nice Mellow Shag....... and Chill out......
CC
You can 'Out' all you want Terry and claim to see 'Aliases' here there and everywhere, but when all said and done (there, I managed to get a cliché in as well), it is only your opinion and the mere fact that others don't agree doesn't mean they are anymore wrong than you seem to think you are right!
With the wealth of experience and insight you claim, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and produce something for the price you seem to think is possible?
Oh, and as far as not calling our collective products Shyte, go back to your first post dated 15.10.04 at 16:04 and re-read the second to last sentence.
You really could do to get out your comfortable Slippers, Fill the Bowl of your Pipe with a nice Mellow Shag....... and Chill out......
CC
Desert Biker
Guest
TerryM said:
TerryM is all that vitriolic tosh an attempt at humour????
In one post you manage to insult:.
Carroll Shelby
German people
British people
Importers
Anybody in Sales!
The biking community.
The members of this site. ( including those have have paid the subs!!!)
Is there anbody you dont have a problem with.?
Would love to be a fly on the wall in your local!!!!!
Keep going mate. Although reading your posts are like wading through treacle. There is some entertainment value in your breathtakingly cynical views!!!
Ride Safe!
Bugger the pipe and slipperscoolcarbon said:...You really could do to get out your comfortable Slippers, Fill the Bowl of your Pipe with a nice Mellow Shag....... and Chill out......
CC
A nice mellow shag, ah now you've got me interested, will it be priced per kilo or per minute?
Eric_Norman
Registered user
Well having read through this thread over the past week (or is it weeks now!!!) I've just order the rear hugger from motorradconcepts.
To be honest im not much interested in cost per tonne.
I will however tell you how i arrived at my decision.
1) The bike obviously needs something to keep all the shite being sprayed on the underside. Its my intension to use the bike all year around as ive done with my 650GS.
2) I dont like washing / clean cars and bikes at the best of time and in fact the 650 got more attention than any of our cars in the cleaning department.
3) I dont have the necessary skills or access to the source materials to make one! Perhaps TerryM can post a how to make one for 2pence and where to get the bits or better still get one done by Blue Peter.
4)Having looked around at what is available the motorconcepts hugger looks the best available NOW !!!!.
5) On a 1200GS it looks the business and suits my perseption of what the backend should look like.
6) I can just about afford it having spend 10K on the bike, engine bar and bits.
The key point from the above is 'the best available NOW !!!'.
Is another one available for the £60 i hear quoted, that looks as good?
Is it guaranteed ?
Does it looks like it was made for the 1200?
I'm sure i will be happy when it arrives
To be honest im not much interested in cost per tonne.
I will however tell you how i arrived at my decision.
1) The bike obviously needs something to keep all the shite being sprayed on the underside. Its my intension to use the bike all year around as ive done with my 650GS.
2) I dont like washing / clean cars and bikes at the best of time and in fact the 650 got more attention than any of our cars in the cleaning department.
3) I dont have the necessary skills or access to the source materials to make one! Perhaps TerryM can post a how to make one for 2pence and where to get the bits or better still get one done by Blue Peter.
4)Having looked around at what is available the motorconcepts hugger looks the best available NOW !!!!.
5) On a 1200GS it looks the business and suits my perseption of what the backend should look like.
6) I can just about afford it having spend 10K on the bike, engine bar and bits.
The key point from the above is 'the best available NOW !!!'.
Is another one available for the £60 i hear quoted, that looks as good?
Is it guaranteed ?
Does it looks like it was made for the 1200?
I'm sure i will be happy when it arrives
nadeem
Guest
Enjoy....it does look good that much is true, and it looks well made.
Le singe
Guest
TerryM
In reply to your 'used to be doing....why not still...?
Retired at 45 to live in France,better quality of life,no longer surrounded by bullsh1tters!
Yes,the margins are still there now.
Yes,the aftermarket products for GS's are more because the riders will and do pay more!
It costs no more to manufacture a hugger for a CBR600 than a GS,but the GS hugger usually retails for twice as much,perhaps one of the retailers could explain why?
Reading the comments on their claimed profit margins,I now realise they retail them at cost just to help us.Ho ho ho!
It's the same with parts for a Mercedes for example,they don't make many parts in house,most are manufactured by companies who make the same parts for a number of car companies,but look at the difference in retail prices,I fully expect someone will reply and claim that Mercedes wheel trims are made of a far superior plastic to those fitted to a Ford,but the realists amongst us know that as you were prepared to spend a large sum of money on your car purchase,it's safe to assume you will pay more for your spares,are they wrong?
The same applies to aftermarket spares for BM bikes.
But the choice,as always,is with the buyer,if no-one bought the parts,would they disappear or would the prices reduce to Japonese bike levels?
In reply to your 'used to be doing....why not still...?
Retired at 45 to live in France,better quality of life,no longer surrounded by bullsh1tters!
Yes,the margins are still there now.
Yes,the aftermarket products for GS's are more because the riders will and do pay more!
It costs no more to manufacture a hugger for a CBR600 than a GS,but the GS hugger usually retails for twice as much,perhaps one of the retailers could explain why?
Reading the comments on their claimed profit margins,I now realise they retail them at cost just to help us.Ho ho ho!
It's the same with parts for a Mercedes for example,they don't make many parts in house,most are manufactured by companies who make the same parts for a number of car companies,but look at the difference in retail prices,I fully expect someone will reply and claim that Mercedes wheel trims are made of a far superior plastic to those fitted to a Ford,but the realists amongst us know that as you were prepared to spend a large sum of money on your car purchase,it's safe to assume you will pay more for your spares,are they wrong?
The same applies to aftermarket spares for BM bikes.
But the choice,as always,is with the buyer,if no-one bought the parts,would they disappear or would the prices reduce to Japonese bike levels?
Cone Bolt
Guest
Been following this thread with both concern and amusement. It's only a Hugger! Buy or don't buy it's your choice. Just one point there is the issue of development & setup costs and economy of scale. Individual models of BMW are never going to sell in the same quantities as those of the Japanese manufacturers hence the market for accessories is smaller per model so the set up costs are projected to be spread over smaller production runs.
If you boys want real price inflation work in the aviation industry the difference between approved and non approved parts can be as much as 3000% hence the large market in counterfeit spares, that is what type aproval and certification does for you and be warned it has already started in the motor industry. Thanks Brussels!
Just one point there is the issue of development & setup costs and economy of scale. Individual models of BMW are never going to sell in the same quantities as those of the Japanese manufacturers hence the market for accessories is smaller per model so the set up costs are projected to be spread over smaller production runs. If you boys want real price inflation work in the aviation industry the difference between approved and non approved parts can be as much as 3000% hence the large market in counterfeit spares, that is what type aproval and certification does for you and be warned it has already started in the motor industry. Thanks Brussels!
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