Is ABS a dealbreaker on this one?

[Deleted account 211025001]

...............
It may be that you have never been in a situation of requiring assistance in an emergency and so feel comfortable that your own theories and reactions will always keep you shiny side up - but then not all situations are the same are they?

No no, far from it - in my earlier post I said that on one occasion ABS has kicked in and saved me from a serious incident.

I was just making the point, maybe obliquely, that so often when 'we' blame other road users for accidents there is often so much more 'we' could have done to avoid that accident in the first place.

TBH I don't really 'get' the extreme position form either 'side' - Personally I would never buy a bike because it had ABS but nor would I not buy it if it because it had ABS. I think it can help in some situations but I also think that experiance/training/ability count for a lot more.

Over and above that I really don't have a strong opinion on it.

Andres

 

[cookie]

i'm sure i saw some research recently that suggested that although ABS on a car enabled drivers to steer while under maximum braking, very few actually did.

 

[JayC]

No no, far from it - in my earlier post I said that on one occasion ABS has kicked in and saved me from a serious incident.

I was just making the point, maybe obliquely, that so often when 'we' blame other road users for accidents there is often so much more 'we' could have done to avoid that accident in the first place.

TBH I don't really 'get' the extreme position form either 'side' - Personally I would never buy a bike because it had ABS but nor would I not buy it if it because it had ABS. I think it can help in some situations but I also think that experiance/training/ability count for a lot more.

Over and above that I really don't have a strong opinion on it.

Andres

Indeed Andres , I agree with all of the above, and like you , just giving my view of where ABS has a part to play.

I have only had 3 ABS bikes in my riding history , 1st an FJ12 many years back, but more recently the current 12GS and previous F800 , but by no means am I converted.

 

[JayC]

i'm sure i saw some research recently that suggested that although ABS on a car enabled drivers to steer while under maximum braking, very few actually did.

Old habits die hard.

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

True............but..........if you've observed correctly and anticiapated what may happen you will have adjusted your speed, given yourself an escape route or done whatever was necessary to make sure that 'if' said driver acted the goat you wouldn't hit them.

Andres

+1

Watch the car wheels, as well as the driver

Slow down, make sure you can stop in necessary distance and you have an escape route at one side of the car

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

It may be that you have never been in a situation of requiring assistance in an emergency and so feel comfortable that your own theories and reactions will always keep you shiny side up - but then not all situations are the same are they?

Oh, I have ...and ABS made it a whole lot worse on 3 occasions abroad on dry roads, making stopping and collision avoidance a whole lot more difficult

Velocity of the bike was increased, when the ABS functioned making the bike 'speed up', despite me wanting it to slow down (throttle rolled off, downchaninging, brakes applied)

On return from that trip, I immediately sold the bike in 2004 and have not had one since fiitted with ABS

 

[cookie]

Oh, I have ...and ABS made it a whole lot worse on 3 occasions abroad on dry roads, making stopping and collision avoidance a whole lot more difficult

Velocity of the bike was increased, when the ABS functioned making the bike 'speed up', despite me wanting it to slow down (throttle rolled off, downchaninging, brakes applied)

On return from that trip, I immediately sold the bike in 2004 and have not had one since fiitted with ABS

in fairness, that's a *feature* of the 1150 ABS. also the feel at the lever is improved on the non ABS bikes. the system on the 1200 is much better, to the point of near invisibility.

if it was the 1150 ABS or none, i'd go with none.

 

[JayC]

+1

Watch the car wheels, as well as the driver

Slow down, make sure you can stop in necessary distance and you have an escape route at one side of the car

Not if you read post #79 thoroughly you haven't! How do you escape down the back end of a car pulling out of a junction on your left?

Oh, I have ...and ABS made it a whole lot worse on 3 occasions abroad on dry roads, making stopping and collision avoidance a whole lot more difficult

Velocity of the bike was increased, when the ABS functioned making the bike 'speed up', despite me wanting it to slow down (throttle rolled off, downchaninging, brakes applied)

On return from that trip, I immediately sold the bike in 2004 and have not had one since fiitted with ABS

Eh? Your ABS kicked in thereby the bike accelerated? Fuck me I'd have got shot that bike too!

 

[Time Traveller]

Mixed opinions here. might be interesting to set up a straw poll.


I've been riding since I was 16, and I'm 50 this year. high mileage biker in all weather, touring, commuting (and no chicken strips in my tyres...ie I don't really hang around). Accidents? I fell off a small bike a couple of times when I was 17. I've dropped my TDM in the garage a few years back. My KTM 990 Adventure stalled a couple of times due to fuelling issues at initial take off and I dropped it zero mph.

As for emergency braking and "real" accidents. zilch. am I a god? No. But I have been an advanced driver (IAM Observer) for a loooong time and RoSPA Gold rider for a number of years (about 5 I think). Anyone can do that course and learn from it. Nobody is exempt from accidents - including the RoSPA up their own arse brigade that think they are some how superior. Not so.


BUT

It is a mind set. Someone said that nobody concentrates all of the time - I feckin do! I realise I'm just as likely to have an accident today as I was the day after I took my test. Stats mean feckall. and (this really happened and I got away with it) a lorry have a large piece of Timber fly off his flat bed and caber toss style, bounce in front of me then right over my head...only it may get me next time. Those things happen and people die.

However, ABS has caused me more problems than it solved, so if you are going back to stats. Not for me. Thank you.


On Mindset...

Suppose you pretend that there is a Police Rider following you and watching you - would you ride differently? Yes? Then maybe you need to consider in what way, and why?

I'm a bit sad, and part of my riding enjoyment is having that imaginary Police Rider (friend?) watching me - cos that concentrates the mind on whether I'm doing anything a bit wronglyish.

Anyway, I've said my piece so I'll shut up now

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

ABS is great..................

............in some circumstances though

Approach a hazard that has a long lead in of rumble strips as fast as you dare (such as a roundabout on a dual carriageway) then as you hit the rumble strips brake as hard as you dare. Never ceases to make me laugh out loud...............so childish

Andres

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

Eh? Your ABS kicked in thereby the bike accelerated? Fuck me I'd have got shot that bike too!

You've never used it in anger then............ on a 1150GS

 

[cookie]

Eh? Your ABS kicked in thereby the bike accelerated? Fuck me I'd have got shot that bike too!

they don't so much accelerate as stop decelerating, but it feels like acceleration from the saddle.

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

they don't so much accelerate as stop decelerating, but it feels like acceleration from the saddle.

Nicely summed up Cookie

Feckin' scary

 

[Time Traveller]

Not if you read post #79 thoroughly you haven't! How do you escape down the back end of a car pulling out of a junction on your left?



Eh? Your ABS kicked in thereby the bike accelerated? Fuck me I'd have got shot that bike too!

Depends. You have safe breaking distance, you are on the crown so you can see down the junction and know he is there before he knows(if at all) you are there. You can see the speed of his approach - is he braking has he looked at you (and Ive had them where they look as if they have seen you and haven't)? What's going on around you, is there a potential gap in the traffic that he would turn in to if you weren't there? etc etc

the escape is an emergency stop if he continues out up to the last safe point (know what your stopping distances are by practicing). (bikes will stop in an incredibly short distance!). Also bear in mind an emergency stop may mean a rear ending, so may not be a safe option anyway, another reason for knowing whats happening behind.

Once past the emergency stop point (which is only a short distance from the side road), then another action could be to accelerate very hard so you get past..which is why your bike is already in its most responsive gear, and you know exactly what is behind you - we are talking large capacity fast motorbikes here!..that can get out of the way quick, if you're on the crown, you have the time it takes him in his own bit of road to not be slowing down as he approaches, plus half the road width you are on before he would actually hit you. You can steer, accelerate, or a mixture.

There is also your hoooter pharp pharp before it even gets into an "emergency" - use it.

Someone said "watch the wheels" +1

kids between cars. See a kid, then look on the other side too, are his mates over there? any other reason for a sudden change of direction across you?

And finally you mention accelerated, I think the word used was "Speed up" and it was in inverted commers, and I of course it didn't accelerate or literally speed up, I think he means the front lifts as the brakes drop off as the ABS kicks in, which "feels" like speeding up...that was my interpretation anyway.

 

[JayC]

Mixed opinions here. might be interesting to set up a straw poll.


I've been riding since I was 16, and I'm 50 this year. high mileage biker in all weather, touring, commuting (and no chicken strips in my tyres...ie I don't really hang around). Accidents? I fell off a small bike a couple of times when I was 17. I've dropped my TDM in the garage a few years back. My KTM 990 Adventure stalled a couple of times due to fuelling issues at initial take off and I dropped it zero mph.

As for emergency braking and "real" accidents. zilch. am I a god? No. But I have been an advanced driver (IAM Observer) for a loooong time and RoSPA Gold rider for a number of years (about 5 I think). Anyone can do that course and learn from it. Nobody is exempt from accidents - including the RoSPA up their own arse brigade that think they are some how superior. Not so.


BUT

It is a mind set. Someone said that nobody concentrates all of the time - I feckin do!

However, ABS has caused me more problems than it solved, so if you are going back to stats. Not for me. Thank you.


On Mindset...

Suppose you pretend that there is a Police Rider following you and watching you - would you ride differently? Yes? Then maybe you need to consider in what way, and why?

I'm a bit sad, and part of my riding enjoyment is having that imaginary Police Rider (friend?) watching me - cos that concentrates the mind on whether I'm doing anything a bit wronglyish.

Anyway, I've said my piece so I'll shut up now

It was me who said nobody concentrates 100%, 100% of the time , and though you doubt it , I'm afraid that includes you to!
The reason you had that off at zero mph had little to do with the stall, it was down to not being prepared for the unexpected! Precisely my point about not all situations are the same.

I prefer to think about what is going on around me in the real world , not imaginary policemen sitting on my shoulder. You have lost your focus again!

Personally I don't give two hoots for all this IAM business. It is an educational course, not a duty to carry out orders.

Last summer I was on a rideout with a work contact (BMW owner) and the first thing he said to me was "I am an IAM rider, are you"?
I'm telling you, I could've wet myself. I thought 'you pompous prick, let's just ride'!

During that ride out I was close to horrified at his riding style and felt if that is what IAM teaches then I'll carry on with my current spell of luck on the road.
Road positioning? I nearly closed my eyes waiting for his accident to happen!

 

[JayC]

they don't so much accelerate as stop decelerating, but it feels like acceleration from the saddle.

Ah , clarity , a wonderful invention! Maybe that explains my IAM trained wide cornering work contact and his riding style aboard his 1150 then.

 

[JayC]

Depends. You have safe breaking distance, you are on the crown so you can see down the junction and know he is there before he knows(if at all) you are there. You can see the speed of his approach - is he braking has he looked at you (and Ive had them where they look as if they have seen you and haven't)? What's going on around you, is there a potential gap in the traffic that he would turn in to if you weren't there? etc etc

the escape is an emergency stop if he continues out up to the last safe point (know what your stopping distances are by practicing). (bikes will stop in an incredibly short distance!). Also bear in mind an emergency stop may mean a rear ending, so may not be a safe option anyway, another reason for knowing whats happening behind.

Once past the emergency stop point (which is only a short distance from the side road), then another action could be to accelerate very hard so you get past..which is why your bike is already in its most responsive gear, and you know exactly what is behind you - we are talking large capacity fast motorbikes here!..that can get out of the way quick, if you're on the crown, you have the time it takes him in his own bit of road to not be slowing down as he approaches, plus half the road width you are on before he would actually hit you. You can steer, accelerate, or a mixture.

There is also your hoooter pharp pharp before it even gets into an "emergency" - use it.

Someone said "watch the wheels" +1

kids between cars. See a kid, then look on the other side too, are his mates over there? any other reason for a sudden change of direction across you?

You can't see the speed of approach because it is stopped and wanting to pull out. It is a 90 degree junction and the driver hasn't made his mind up yet whether he is going to stop after noticing you and his front end 6 feet into your path or whether to continue and cross the centre line thereby making your escape plan B non-effective. He also has a caravan in tow!

Bikes don't stop in 30 feet at either 50 ,40 or even 30mph. Some other means of avoidance needs to be initiated.

You haven't seen the kid, he is on his own and is 6yrs old. He wanders out into your path between two closely parked Land Rover Discovery Commercials (no side glass.

 

[Steptoe]

the last thing an airhead needs is anti lock brakes.

I bought an abs airhead back in the early ninties at an auction of perculiar bikes from a government outfit that used to be based at some secret vehicle research place in buckinghamshire.

It was equipped with a lucas prototype abs system which involved lots of brackets, extraneous brake lines, electrical wiring and relays.

And the reason why we never saw a lucas abs system on a bmw was because it was a heap of shite.

I should have kept that bike it may have been very collectable............

And another thing...... sod being stuck down the pub with most of the posters in this thread. I'd lose the will to live.

 

[Mutley]

I'm a bit sad, and part of my riding enjoyment is having that imaginary Police Rider (friend?) watching me - cos that concentrates the mind on whether I'm doing anything a bit wronglyish.

Your opinion is completely credible and I'm off to take the ABS off my bike immediately

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

So..............in a crisis situation, when braking, is it necessarily a bad thing when you have one or more 'locked up' and sliding

I would say NO.................because you can have a fair degree of influence on where the bike is going with extreme body lean - side to ride and/or front to back and vice-versa, this will give you some control on the direction of forward travel

When sliding, the bike is slowing (albeit not as quickly as one that isn't, but it's still slowing), so with some speed 'scrubbed' off - you can maybe re-apply the brakes (both or just front) or you have slowed enough to take another course of direction to evade the obstruction

Nothing is an exact science and sometimes you need a bit of skill too

The best riders, ride with 'instinct' & intuition, they are at one with the bike and I don't think this can be taught. Riding with instinct can help you out no end and you should flow with the bike, not against it

I've seen a lot of riders who are truly appalling motorcyclists, despite riding for 30 years and having IAM/ROSPa or the like.....................they have no instinct, no flair and they are alien to the bike and definitely not at one with it - they can't jump from one style of bike to another and gel with it at all

Here's a vid of being in total control of a bike, whilst sliding

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kw_PrqTlMbA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Some of you will say, it's on a track, it's not real, it's not the road, there are no obstacles.................sure it isn't...............but I bet you, that in a crisis braking situation on the road then one of these guys would be able to control his bike and not crash

These guys are riding with instinct......................the bike moves and they move even before the bike moves - that's instinct

Most road riders sit there like a 'bag of spuds', just cruising along and then a crisis comes along and they think.................huh, what happened? - as they pick themselves up and dust themselves down