Jump starting GSA?

[Bendy toy]

Connect the bike battery at the battery terminals. The donor earth can be at battery or chassis if really worried about H2 gassing.
To avoid terminals touching where they should not do the positive at the bike then at donor. Then do earth at bike battery and donor at engine block.

However I have an Odyssey on my bike with terminals towards the fuel tank so access for normal jump lead clips is tight to say the least.

 

[cookie]

There won't be any gas with the OEM sealed AGM battery, so unless you fit some ancient lead acid thing, no problem in that account.

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

Connect the bike battery at the battery terminals. The donor earth can be at battery or chassis if really worried about H2 gassing.
To avoid terminals touching where they should not do the positive at the bike then at donor. Then do earth at bike battery and donor at engine block.

Stating the obvious award

 

[The Grey One]

Stating the obvious award

What might be obvious to some is new information to others. Describing any procedure is fraught with dangers, the more we know the more we often assume others also know. On a open forum such as this it does no harm to spell things out for the benefit of those who are want to learn.

John

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

What might be obvious to some is new information to others. Describing any procedure is fraught with dangers, the more we know the more we often assume others also know. On a open forum such as this it does no harm to spell things out for the benefit of those who are want to learn.

John

Especially, for the new breed of DAS entry motorcyclist

 

[The Grey One]

Especially, for the new breed of DAS entry motorcyclist

Can't see how the way they pass a test has anything to do with it. Why should choosing to take the direct access route imply any lack of mechanical knowledge. Once a person is old enough to take that route it would appear to me to be the sensible way to go. You get a full license and therefore have the same privilege as new car drivers-that of a free choice of machine.

We live in an age where we have to trust that things work without understanding how. Few of us can have detailed knowledge on how many modern gadgets actually work, we just know they do. This same thinking applies for a lot of people to cars and motorcycles, they just accept that they work. The problem comes when people with no basic understanding start to tinker with a vehicle. And this is where stating the obvious as you put it is important. If simply is not safe to assume that people have even a basic level of knowledge.

I grew up in an era where people repaired things. My earliest memory of things mechanical was "helping" my dad fit a new head gasket to his Austin 7, I must have been 9 years old at the time. My first bike was a 175 Bantam, I learned a lot on that one. The previous owner had rebuilt the engine and had seen no need for the shims that set crank end float. The crank broke of course and the lack of shims was apparent because by then I had both a little mechanical knowledge and access to a manual. So like many of my generation I learnt basic skills ( and several ways to fall off a Bantam)

Subsequent generations, possible due to us all becoming more affluent, are less inclined to work on their vehicles. Many people these days have almost zero mechanical knowledge. This is nothing to do with which route they took into biking or the fact that many now don't start until middle age. It simply is a fact of modern life in a relatively rich country. People don't have to take an interest they can just pay for someone else to do it for them. It is for these people that we need to start with basics, for those who ask the questions without any past experience or knowledge. None of us were born knowing anything and if we explain things clearly and comprehensively we will encourage this group to learn more.

John

 

[DrFarkoff]

Sorry Bendy but I don't agree with you about battery to battery connections

There was another couple of things about making connections: if a battery has a bad cell or even worse a dead short You are feeding the short which is really bad news (as I have seen one that went bang Messy Damn Messy thankfully no one was by it when it happened but the car needed a repaint and I heard of quite a few that did go bang when in the motor trade)

Anyone who has worked at bikes, cars, trucks, or plant for years will have the wit to realise" that was a very big spark for a connection" but there are a lot who don't etc etc

As My Dad has said many times Electric is a lazy bugger and will always find the easiest path to complete a circuit or go to earth

You put the Connections on your own terminals and connect to another and you have a short or a dead cell you are just turning your battery into a big heating element and its detrimental to both your supplying source and to the accepting source as electricity voltage / current spikes

You should ALWAYS make connections battery positive to battery positive (or the top stud on the starter solenoid! as that always connects directly to the battery!) and chassis ground to chassis ground to minimise this happening

If we were to go down the step by step route of instructions then

We should also mention that on a NEGATIVE EARTH vehicle it's ALWAYS "the Positive connection on First and always Off last"

Negative earth is most common and where the battery negative connects to the chassis or frame.

Positive earth is usually only found on quite old vehicles

 

[cookie]

that makes no sense to me at all - i'm baffled.

fair enough, if using old lead acid batteries, it keeps any spark at connection away from the explosive gasses around the battery, i see that, but otherwise, if you take the earth connection chassis to chassis, all you are doing is making that connection slightly longer. it's still exactly the same connection. electricity is not so lazy that having to negotiate a few extra feet of steel and ally it will make any difference AFAICS

or have i misunderstood and your reasoning is just to be further away from the shorted battery when it goes bang?

 

[DrFarkoff]

Sorry Cookie I am good with spanners and I can find the faults fix the bits of wire that can carry the magic smoke or canbus fluid around the bikes etc

But If the electronics Dude says that it helps absorb voltage spike and limit the possibility of damage to the ECU I am okay with that

I don't really need to understand it and even if its not absolutely correct what harm is there in attaching a lead to a good ground that isn't the battery?

 

[Roymondo]

Saying there is no harm in doing it one particular way is a whole world away from advising that "You should ALWAYS" do it that way.

If the dead battery is indeed internally short-circuited, it's not going to matter a fig whether you connect to the earth terminal on said battery or the vehicle chassis - a foot or two of steel or alloy tube and a battery earth strap won't make any difference to the current that flows - you'll still potentially boil the donor battery or burn the jump leads if they are the weedy ones typically sold by H*l*o*ds etc.

If voltage spikes/surges are going to damage the ECU (which I doubt anyway) then surely connecting to the chassis is going to increase the risk, as it moves the connection closer to said ECU (by taking the battery earth strap and its connecting screws out of the path).

As has been mentioned already, the reason for connecting the earth last, and making that connection to chassis rather than battery is to keep any sparks away from the hydrogen vent, which simply isn't an issue with modern sealed batteries

 

[Deleted account 200502001]

So, with a modern sealed battery I can connect +ve to +ve and then -ve to -ve on the battery terminals? Or if I want to I can connect the -ve from chassis to chassis?

 

[Roymondo]

So, with a modern sealed battery I can connect +ve to +ve and then -ve to -ve on the battery terminals? Or if I want to I can connect the -ve from chassis to chassis?

Yup - Or you could go -ve battery to -ve on the other vehicle's chassis (either way around).

 

[Bendy toy]

It makes little difference whether the positive lead is connected first or the negative. Nothing happens until a circuit is made.
What's very bad news is connecting both pos and neg leads to one battery then going over to connect the other ends to the other battery. It's all too easy to touch the leads together.
I've recently attempted to start a car with an internally shorted battery. There was a slightly larger spark when connecting the last clip but nothing especially exciting.
The starter failed to turn until the dead battery earth terminal was disconnected. Which proved it was internally shorted.


Sent from my phone with mangled spelling

 

[DrFarkoff]

If voltage spikes/surges are going to damage the ECU (which I doubt anyway)

Roy it would appear from your post above that this is not your field? and are actually making Suppositions with someone else's ECU?? IF I am not at least 90% sure what I know and I am sharing to help others I keep my gub shut say nothing!

then surely connecting to the chassis is going to increase the risk, as it moves the connection closer to said ECU (by taking the battery earth strap and its connecting screws out of the path).

Damage is unlikely! If you were sticking a welder onto something you may fry it but all you are doing is replacing a duff voltage with a stable and non spiking voltage

I have seen maybe a dozen ECU's from 1200 which have been corrupted by some form of electrical "surge" the only thing in common was the old flat battery getting jumped from another bike or car and none of them knew about the chassis thing! they all did it terminals to terminals

Yup - Or you could go -ve battery to -ve on the other vehicle's chassis (either way around).

Guessing again ????

It makes little difference whether the positive lead is connected first or the negative. Nothing happens until a circuit is made.

ACTUALLY its just good working practice! From my first days with a spanner My Gramps a senior N.I.R. engineer always said When fitting or removing a battery from a vehicle or bit of plant, that it was the Positive on first and Off last (in negative earth!)

It was to do with when vehicles had a lot more bare metal and spanners were big and clunky rather than dinky refined ratchet things If you took off the the earth strap first you could comfortably wield the spanner without fear of striking engine or chassis metal with a spanner and causing a hell of a spark Remember carburettors weren't always as good at keeping fuel inside themselves!

What's very bad news is connecting both pos and neg leads to one battery then going over to connect the other ends to the other battery. It's all too easy to touch the leads together.

I always do positive in the receiving vehicle then go fit the 2 on the donor vehicle (double checking before going back) leaving one to complete on the receiving vehicle on the engine or something metal! Again just good working practice!

I have to wonder whether you lot think I am some sort of a Cnut that would give you bad advice that you want to have an argument where you stick the earth clamp! You folks just carry on and stick it where you want to!

 

[wessie]

If it has a charge facility? Use that for a while.

Otherwise I think the voltage spike or current surge could be quite detrimental to the ECU's on board

Your call though

Really? The output voltage will be regulated, and have the same effect as connecting a new battery into the circuit. Any current surge will be absorbed by the flat battery as it will have a much lower resistance than any other component.

If your theory had any merit then bodies such as the AA & RAC would not be using packs similar to the Sealey RS1.

 

[wessie]

As far as I know, its advised to connect the negative leads to something metal like the bike frame because otherwise, a spark could occur and ignite any escaping gasses from the battery. But for years I would connect the negative lead to both negative battery terminals thinking I was doing the correct thing.

Spot on. As mentioned by others, hardly a problem if the donor & recipient vehicles have sealed batteries as there isn't going to be much hydrogen kicking about.

The only safety aspect with modern vehicles is to ensure jump leads are fitted to the correct polarity. As mentioned by others, I use the daisy chain approach, RED on flat battery to RED on donor battery, then BLACK from donor to BLACK on flat battery (or suitable chassis point). I haven't died yet.

 

[Roymondo]

I have to wonder whether you lot think I am some sort of a Cnut that would give you bad advice that you want to have an argument where you stick the earth clamp! You folks just carry on and stick it where you want to!

Not at all - I just wonder why the insistence that we should ALWAYS go against the manufacturer's clearly stated instructions for jump starting (although they do add that you can use the rear shock top mounting bolt as an alternative). Clearly you must have more expertise in this area than they do...

 

[kevmean]

The reason for connecting the negative lead to the chassis / engine block is really a safety thing it moves YOU away from the battery if for any reason (gas or other ) that causes the battery to go bang. It's far better for the debris and acid to splash all over the vehicle than it is for it to be straight in your face and eyes.