LED Fog lights

[trainman]

I had a reply from Dan at Bike Viz and an extract from his reply is listed below:

"You're correct in some countries are very strict. Here in the UK, if a small light does not have a lens system (LED based), E marking is not required.

The only product that we carry with E marked lens and CE approval is our Cree running lights, these lights are very very bright and would look good on your GSA.

HID is a grey area as but your stock lens and reflector should be E marked... we don't ship these out of the UK though."

It appears from this, that the Cree DRLs are similar in use to the Wunderlich LED DRLs or P markers. If they are E marked in one EU country, I understand that is legal for all EU countries, provided they are used as designed.

Each country has their own E Number within the EU.

Grey Beard

looked at mine and the box says E reg stamped but cannot see it on the lenses, unless its worn off

 

[Kintessack GSr]

I will have a close look at mine and check the markings!!!!

 

[autogs]

as these are a bmw supplied part they must have been through some sort of approval process to be sold in this country,i would have thought

 

[trainman]

as these are a bmw supplied part they must have been through some sort of approval process to be sold in this country,i would have thought

theres a comment on the Bikevis forum that if LED DRLs have a clear lens then they dont need an E mark - not sure of source of this?

i think as long as they dont dazzle and are white they will be ok - my CREE lamps went through an MOT no problem

 

[Grey Beard]

Am I right in saying that HID's are currently legal aftermarket fitment in the UK?

If this is so, and the same for LED's, if they are not legal in Germany would a tourist be fined/punished under the same rules? I'm thinking yes.

I'm suprised those are the regs in Germany, cos although I might be wrong, isn't there an Audi that has a bank of small lights that go across the front which I assume are LED's? They surely must be legal?

There are several cars now in Germany with daylight running lights in LED. If they are fitted as original equipment then they will be road legal. I am not sure this is the case with stuff bought on eBay or a supermarket like Asda's car bits & pieces section. If it has an E number, then it should be OK. If this is not stamped permanently in the glass, then you should ensure that you carry documentary proof that they are sold as E certified. These running lights are not just on new cars, but on boy racer and older cars also.

Unless the HIDs complete lamp assemblies (not just the bulb/electronic ballast) are marked on the glass that they have an E Number, then they are unlikely to be legal within the EU. According to German TÜV Nord, they are legal if supplied as a factory option by e.g. BMW. I think anything supplied by Touratech or Wunderlich will also be legal in the EU if fitted and used for the purpose they were designed for. Stuff from eBay is usually NOT E marked and when I have asked the sellers if they are, I am met by a deafening silence.

Different countries within the EU have their own E number (Germany is 1, UK is 11), so the testing authorities can tell where they were certified. Even Halogen H7 and H11 bulbs have that number on their base.

http://www.belemc.com/en/page/Default.asp?pageID=23 (poor English from a Chinese source)

http://www.in-carpc.co.uk/legislation.htm (from an UK source. Specified that non e Marked electrical components in a road vehicle are illegal)

You can buy an uncertified bit of equipment (tyres, exhausts, shock absorbers, etc. etc. not just lights) and apply to the Government authority for approval for use on your bike, car, etc. However, this is likely to be expensive and time consuming.

As regards being prosecuted, I would guess they could stop you in Germany and if the policeman was feeling particularly anal, then could require you to change the lights and prosecute you (€80 and one point on your licence and they have a reputation within Germany of being less sympathetic that the UK traffic police). You probably want to carry spare replacement halogen bulbs.

I know that they do actually prosecute bikers with illegal HIDs. I did talk with another biker (who worked in a very well known large biker Bricks & Mortar/Mail Order clothing & accessory shop in Germany) and he had an HID H4 bulb fitted, but got through the TÜV test as a 'friend' did it for him. I think he was just waiting to get stopped by the police on the road though.

One thing is certain, is that under German regs, only one Xenon HID is allowed (Factory fitted, Touratech, Wunderlich, etc. spot lamp). I was told that the lumen rating must not exceed 2000 lumens, but this seems low, as Les Wassell quotes (I think) 3500 lumens/HID 50W bulb. I don't think colour is critical, provided it is basically white (tungsten or bluish white). There was some mention of self levelling suspension, but when I said I had electronic suspension that seemed to be accepted. Certainly the BMW 1300GT and 1600GT bikes have the option of a Xenon factory fitted light (presumably high beam only).

While colour is not legally critical, if you are using high colour temperature bluish/white Xenon HIDs, they are rather obvious and so likely to attract plod's attention.

The UK seems more relaxed over enforcement of the e certification by police and MOT stations, but there is increasing talk on the forums that things may be about to change and vehicles will fail the UK MOT if fitted with non e marked products.

Grey Beard

 

[Dainese Brave]

Thanks for that excellent reply Grey Beard

It all seems a bit vague at the moment, and you're very much at the lenience of the police, both here and abroad.

I've got HID's on my main and dip beam, and also my spots (although I do only use these in poor conditions, or around manic/maniac Eastern aeurope driving). These were fitted by Les Wassell.

I'd be very reluctant to have to change back to even 'high power' bulbs.

I have read about the possible changes on the horizon in the UK...whether they are rumours or inevitable only time will tell.

 

[Grey Beard]

Thanks for that excellent reply Grey Beard

It all seems a bit vague at the moment, and you're very much at the lenience of the police, both here and abroad.

I've got HID's on my main and dip beam, and also my spots (although I do only use these in poor conditions, or around manic/maniac Eastern aeurope driving). These were fitted by Les Wassell.

I'd be very reluctant to have to change back to even 'high power' bulbs.

I have read about the possible changes on the horizon in the UK...whether they are rumours or inevitable only time will tell.

I did actually buy 4 'overrun' halogen H11 & H7 to put in my existing main/low and 2 fogs. Not fitted yet.

TÜV here said (despite the manufacturer's claims) their actual output wasn't really any different to the standard bulbs. I haven't tried to test with a meter though. They should be whiter/higher colour temperature, but I guess thy won't last so long.

Is that what you mean by 'high power' bulbs?

Grey Beard

 

[Dainese Brave]

I meant like the Phillips X-treme range....standard fitment but considerably brighter.

I've never tried them on the BMW....but tried similar on my car, and they were a vast improvement....and they've lasted years on the car too.

Not sure any of the 'brighter' bulbs would match the HID's...but I'm not sure for how long they may be a legal option.

 

[WindyChuffer]

My understanding of the UK Highway Code is that it is a set of codes or recommendations. If you have, or cause an accident, then, if you have not being following the practice as stated in the Highway Code, then you can be prosecuted under these codes.

Fog lamps are only to be used when visibility (fog/snow/spray/smoke, etc). is less than 50m. They also have a tell tale pilot light so the driver doesn't leave the lights on in good visibility. Of course that doesn't work for these that don't look at the switch or know any better or who consciously decide to drive with the fogs on anyway.

It is the same as some of the German Autobahns, which in theory don't have an upper speed limit, but they do all have a 'Recommended' speed limit of 130 km/h. If you are exceeding this speed and have, or cause an accident, then you may be prosecuted for not observing the 'recommended' speed limit.

Grey Beard

The Highway Code is the interpretation of the law. In court, you would not quote the Highway Code in your defense. Instead, you would quote the relevant act.

Interesting that the BMW brochure still refers to the fog lights as "auxiliary driving lights", even though they have fog light beam pattern.

Cracking thread BTW. Beats fekkin around with HID conversion. Will look into getting some !

 

[trainman]

I meant like the Phillips X-treme range....standard fitment but considerably brighter.

I've never tried them on the BMW....but tried similar on my car, and they were a vast improvement....and they've lasted years on the car too.

Not sure any of the 'brighter' bulbs would match the HID's...but I'm not sure for how long they may be a legal option.

i believe that UK law currently is based on the wattage not the light output, so i guess whatever your lamp is rated at in watts you should not exceed (if you did you might blow the wiring anyway!)

as has been noted the law will need catch up with HID and LED lighting which are difficult to rate this way (LEDs can be more light for same power as you dont lose wattage heating the bulb up)

 

[Grey Beard]

i believe that UK law currently is based on the wattage not the light output, so i guess whatever your lamp is rated at in watts you should not exceed (if you did you might blow the wiring anyway!)

as has been noted the law will need catch up with HID and LED lighting which are difficult to rate this way (LEDs can be more light for same power as you dont lose wattage heating the bulb up)

The TÜV engineer specifically mentioned lumens output in regard to HIDs.

However, he had some rude words when talking about halogens originating from the Eastern Europe countries. Some of these bulbs are up to 100W (as opposed to the normal 55W) so obviously banned within the EU.

The Philips Extreme range is an overrun bulb, which is whiter, but the TÜV centre claimed these were not any brighter than a standard halogen. Lifetime of halogens seem to be a bit random. We have +30% halogens in the car and these are generally OK. I have had 2 new standard halogens blow within one week - but that was in the Republic of Ireland and their roads are somewhat below the standard of what is expected in the UK and Germany.

I think TÜV are looking at the lumen output of the LEDs and that is probably why Touratech are having problems with certification of the single LED replacement of the parking light on bike lamp clusters. Obviously, as technology moves on, LEDs will likely increase in power and reliability, so will replace tungsten filament bulbs pretty soon.

Grey Beard