The diagnostic tool i used on your bike.
Loomin hell
- Thread starter monkeyboy
- Start date
The diagnostic tool i used on your bike.
As Steptoe says - he used it on my bike and no error codes were reported as I remember.
Maidenhead isn't to far at all. So the motronic is custom mappable? I didn't know that. I'm going to swap for the 1100S motronic this weekend I think and see if that makes any difference. If it doesn't I'll maybe give PDQ a call. Can't do any harm can it!
BTW - Do I remember you from boxertrix ?
No. At least, not directly. You can replace the chip in the ECU with one from BBPower or similar - I've had good results with this before including on my first 1150GS - this offers different ignition/fuelling maps for different modifications. It didn't have any effect on my problem with the current bike, though, and tomorrow I'm putting the standard chip back in to make fault tracing easier. Hopefully.
On my 1100S I had a Power Commander fitted - this allowed a custom map to be set up but the custom map is held in the PC111, not in the original ECU.
The advantage of a replacement chip is that you can alter the ignition map as well as the fuelling one - this isn't possible with the PC111, at least on the BM (you can on Harleys, for example).
There's no doubt it'll make a difference, but it may not be a welcome one! At the very least the fuelling and ignition maps held on the chip in the 1100S won't be directly suitable for the 1150GS (the 1100S motor has mechanical differences to generate more power, and maps to suit), at worst it simply won't work if the connections from the loom are different (although they probably aren't).
If it was me I think I'd be tempted to try the 1100S ECU with the 1150GS chip rather than just the 1100S ECU as-is, but without knowing the differences between the two ECUs (mapping chips aside) I'd suggest treading carefully even doing that.
Quite possibly - I had the same user name and avatar there. I still have the Boxertrix sticker on my top box - it covers unslightly damage
No. At least, not directly. You can replace the chip in the ECU with one from BBPower or similar - I've had good results with this before including on my first 1150GS - this offers different ignition/fuelling maps for different modifications. It didn't have any effect on my problem with the current bike, though, and tomorrow I'm putting the standard chip back in to make fault tracing easier. Hopefully.
On my 1100S I had a Power Commander fitted - this allowed a custom map to be set up but the custom map is held in the PC111, not in the original ECU.
The advantage of a replacement chip is that you can alter the ignition map as well as the fuelling one - this isn't possible with the PC111, at least on the BM (you can on Harleys, for example).
There's no doubt it'll make a difference, but it may not be a welcome one! At the very least the fuelling and ignition maps held on the chip in the 1100S won't be directly suitable for the 1150GS (the 1100S motor has mechanical differences to generate more power, and maps to suit), at worst it simply won't work if the connections from the loom are different (although they probably aren't).
If it was me I think I'd be tempted to try the 1100S ECU with the 1150GS chip rather than just the 1100S ECU as-is, but without knowing the differences between the two ECUs (mapping chips aside) I'd suggest treading carefully even doing that.
Quite possibly - I had the same user name and avatar there. I still have the Boxertrix sticker on my top box - it covers unslightly damage
OK - maybe I'll leave that and see what the next week brings, then consider the rolling road
Pauly S
Registered user
Lambda probe
Try running the veh with no lambda probe, the ecu will default to a std map, and shouldnt cause any probs.
I had a probe nearly feckin killed me once, engine completely cut out mid overtake, completely killed the engine,with rather ambitious throttle action the engine finally cut back in saving me from being a statistic.
i had fitted a y piece and the probe didnt like being moved, its possible the probe you fitted may be dicky.
when the engine is warm , it shoud read 0-0.5 volts dc and it should read up and down between these voltages.
but the probe i tested , even gave the correct readings, so i changed it anyway for a new one and no further probs.
rather than buy a new one, just unplug it and road test it.
enjoy
Paul
Try running the veh with no lambda probe, the ecu will default to a std map, and shouldnt cause any probs.
I had a probe nearly feckin killed me once, engine completely cut out mid overtake, completely killed the engine,with rather ambitious throttle action the engine finally cut back in saving me from being a statistic.
i had fitted a y piece and the probe didnt like being moved, its possible the probe you fitted may be dicky.
when the engine is warm , it shoud read 0-0.5 volts dc and it should read up and down between these voltages.
but the probe i tested , even gave the correct readings, so i changed it anyway for a new one and no further probs.
rather than buy a new one, just unplug it and road test it.
enjoy
Paul
Try running the veh with no lambda probe, the ecu will default to a std map, and shouldnt cause any probs.
I had a probe nearly feckin killed me once, engine completely cut out mid overtake, completely killed the engine,with rather ambitious throttle action the engine finally cut back in saving me from being a statistic.
i had fitted a y piece and the probe didnt like being moved, its possible the probe you fitted may be dicky.
when the engine is warm , it shoud read 0-0.5 volts dc and it should read up and down between these voltages.
but the probe i tested , even gave the correct readings, so i changed it anyway for a new one and no further probs.
rather than buy a new one, just unplug it and road test it.
enjoy
Paul
Ta Paul. I had the same sort of thing as you with an earlier lambda - get to 80 and it would just stop accelerating, like a speed limiter. It wouldn't move until i opened the throttle wide open. I replaced it with a 2nd hand one which cleared the fault, then I recently bought a brand new NGK one and stuck it on. I'll give it a ride with it out though and see if that makes the essential difference I'm looking for - but doesn't it default to an emergency map and use shed loads of fuel?
I tried running without a lambda sensor - it masked the problem a bit but the bike used loads more fuel and the black LH rear indicator showed just how rich it was running, as did the plugs. Oh, and the massive backfiring whenever I shut the throttle.
I replaced my lambda with an NGK one and it's no different from how it was with the OE Bosch one. More wasted mney.
I replaced my lambda with an NGK one and it's no different from how it was with the OE Bosch one. More wasted mney.
Pauly S
Registered user
lamda probe
I think you are missing the point, the idea is asscertain wether or not the probe is givin aggro,the brand of probe will be immaterial, as long as its workin to spec.
The bike can run on any crap you want to put in the tank,but some fuels ie leaded, will trash the cat and probe.
There was an article a way back in MCN whereby some fellas ran out of petrol in africa or somewhere and were runnin a twin spark on diesel.
there was a problem a while ago with
petrol,,whereby they put too much of an additive in it, and this in turn trashed the lambda sensor.
also some silicone sealers used in the wrong place on the engine will also trash the probe, ie after the head and before the probe.
Just unplug it and run it for a few miles and see how you get on.
The idea of the probe is to monitor the oxygen content in the gases leaving the engine as in "02 sensor",if its lying it could make it run too weak and limit the power output of the engine or trash pistons or valves.
equally too rich will limit power too, its got to run at a stoichametric ratio of around 14 to 1, that is 14 parts air, 1 part fuel,ttats the ideal burn ratio for economy and power.
if it is weak or rich it will show easily on a rolling road gas analyser.
atb Paul
I think you are missing the point, the idea is asscertain wether or not the probe is givin aggro,the brand of probe will be immaterial, as long as its workin to spec.
The bike can run on any crap you want to put in the tank,but some fuels ie leaded, will trash the cat and probe.
There was an article a way back in MCN whereby some fellas ran out of petrol in africa or somewhere and were runnin a twin spark on diesel.
there was a problem a while ago with
petrol,,whereby they put too much of an additive in it, and this in turn trashed the lambda sensor.also some silicone sealers used in the wrong place on the engine will also trash the probe, ie after the head and before the probe.
Just unplug it and run it for a few miles and see how you get on.
The idea of the probe is to monitor the oxygen content in the gases leaving the engine as in "02 sensor",if its lying it could make it run too weak and limit the power output of the engine or trash pistons or valves.
equally too rich will limit power too, its got to run at a stoichametric ratio of around 14 to 1, that is 14 parts air, 1 part fuel,ttats the ideal burn ratio for economy and power.
if it is weak or rich it will show easily on a rolling road gas analyser.
atb Paul
I'm not missing the point, just trying to balance what you've said. I disconnected the lambda probe and the bike ran a fair bit better - enough to make me go and buy a new probe thinking that it was the cause of the problem. But fitting the new probe simply proved that it wasn't actually the original probe at fault - the richer running without the probe connected had just masked the original problem.
This is really very unlikely since the lambda sensor has no effect at higher engine revs or wider throttle openings, the conditions under which engine damage due to a weak mixture might occur. In fact a bad lambda sensor is more likely to cause mixture problems under the conditions that monkeyboy's and my bikes run badly, but we've both eliminated the sensor as being the cause.
That's the theoretical ideal burn ratio, but in reality few engines run it so......
...while this is true, if the exhaust gas analyser indicates that the mixture is 'a bit' different from 14:1 this isn't necessarily an indication of a fuelling problem. When it gets to this point the experience of the dyno operator is invaluable.
Today I returned the bike to standard (engine-wise) - fitted the cat instead of the Y-piece, standard chip, standard inlet tubes. Now it's just as it left the factory. I also swapped tanks (mine was slightly damamged - I had got hold of a better replacement) and changed the fuel filter in the process - contrary to what the PO was invoiced for by a main dealer earlier this year, clearly the filter hadn't been changed at 24k miles as it should have been. Oh, and while the LH throttle body was off to fit standard intakes I changed the cam chain tensioner to the new type. I then did yet another throttle balance and went for a ride.
And after all that the bike ran......just like it did before :-( That's trying with no CCP, the yellow one (that came fitted to the bike) and the Steptoe link - it actually ran noticeably worse with the Steptoe link. Well, it was a long shot. I still had a good ride on it this afternoon but it's a long way from running right.
And after all that the bike ran......just like it did before :-( That's trying with no CCP, the yellow one (that came fitted to the bike) and the Steptoe link - it actually ran noticeably worse with the Steptoe link. Well, it was a long shot. I still had a good ride on it this afternoon but it's a long way from running right.
I feel your pain there! The thing I just don't get is that it comes and goes, and always seems to go 'a bit' when I change anything. I keep getting my hopes up and it still keeps happening. TBH it's running a LOT better than when I started, or even a few weeks ago, but it's still just not right. At present it doesn't so much misfire as just jerk back and forth slightly - always at constant or very near constant throttle. 30 in 3rd, 40 in 4th they're usually worst but it can occur at higher speeds too - even at 70 sometimes I can feel it stutter a bit. Open the throttle and try and hold a constant 2500 in neutral and it sometimes has difficulty and starts wandering and missing the occasional beat.
I changed the temp sensor today and that barring the motronic is about the last thing I haven't changed that I can think of that might make a difference. I'm sure it's only the smallest miss reading or deviation from something that is causing the problem. I'll run it with Steptoes map this week then bung the standard yellow relay back in next week and compare. If not then I might have to bite the bullet and get another motronic. At least Motorworks will let you try them and return them if it's not the fault. And it's probably the easiest thing to physically change out of everything too
What are you actual symptoms then Sproggy? Misfiring constantly or is it intermittent? I've got a spare set of blue silicon Magnacore HT leads in the garage if you want to try them. I bought them last year but just bought some 8mm red ones to see if they were the problem.... but... you know the rest
That is an absolutely spot-on description of what's going on with mine too, right down to the occasional stutters at motorway speeds. I couldn't have described it better myself.
I didn't realise they'd do that - their Motronic units aren't cheap but it sounds like a no-risk trial.
Exactly the same as yours. On the right roads the bike rides perfectly, but when there's constant or near-constant light throttle riding around 3k rpm +/- 500rpm there's the stutter/misfire. It's not the same as the surging I've experienced on poorly setup boxers - it's something different. I know there's that advice to change down a gear and open the throttle more but sometimes that isn't an option. There is a fault somewhere.
I've got a spare set of blue silicon Magnacore HT leads in the garage if you want to try them. I bought them last year but just bought some 8mm red ones to see if they were the problem.... but... you know the rest
Thanks, but I've tried two used sets and the new set that's on there now - it's not the leads.
That's seriously weird... I'd agree it definately doesn't have the same feel as surging, just like someone is grabbing the back and pulling a bit. What age is your bike? Mine is a 2002 with 70k on. You CAN drive round it mostly but it's seriously anoying and it's getting to be the only thing I think about when I ride at the moment. We'll see if the temp sensor replacement changes it.
I can't remember how much Motorworks quoted for a replacement - It was either 215 or (probably) 275
2002, October build (last of the single sparks). Only 28k miles, though. There's at least one person on advrider with the same problem, also on a 2002 bike. Again, he's tried changing just about everything with no success.
Dodgy batch of some particular component perhaps?
Same here - it's become a bit of an obsession. As long as I know it's not right, it bugs the hell out of me.
£210, assuming they have one that's appropriate for a 2002 bike.
Ummmm - mine is a 52 so that will be about the same time then. Late single spark. The thing that seems odd to me is that we have both got different setups and are running different maps and we've both changed a variety of stuff and the same problem still persists. It does sound like something dodgy, but given the things I've changed now it can pretty well only be the motronic. Changing the temp sensor yesterday made no difference - it's worse today if anything.
Motorworks certainly had a motronic for the bike a few weeks ago when I asked, as long as it's not from a late 2002!
Motorworks certainly had a motronic for the bike a few weeks ago when I asked, as long as it's not from a late 2002!
Mine's going in to MotoScot on Saturday - see what Steve can find. Something I realised yesterday is that the misfire/stutter or whatever you call it gets worse the longer I ride, up to a point. So it doesn't reach its peak when the bike is warmed up (10-15 minutes), but after 45-60 minutes. That sounds to me like an electrical components starting to degrade with use rather than anything that's engine temperature related.
Cool - it would be good to see what the prognosis is. Having said that, mine does it seemingly randomly - cold, hot, whenever. Sometimes it does it within 1/2 mile of leaving home, some days it just doesn't do it at all. I USED to think it was weather related as it always seemed worse when it was windy and cold - I thought the air pressure changes in the void under the tank might be moving wires around. My brain has been through so many possible prognosis I can't even remember them all
One thing I noticed tonight was that at 30 in third with a stutter on then approaching and climbing a steep hill it evened out, which goes with the 'when not under load' theory. I've often noticed it's bad on a steady or trailing throttle going down hill too.
Good luck though, and let us know
Yes, make it work a little bit harder and it's happy.
Yes, really bad - worst is a gentle hill I go down on the way back from work - 30mph, 3rd gear - surges and stutters like mad.
I'll report back but, no disrespect to Steve, my hopes are not high as I know this problem has had several people stumped for quite some time. Fingers crossed, though.
There's more....
I rode the GS in to work today after using another bike for about a month. To start with it seemed OKish (not brilliant, but bearable) but after half an hour or so it started to deteriorate. This is an aspect of it that I've not mentioned, I think.
After half an hour or so of riding, particularly in traffic, below about 3,500rpm as you accelerate (gently or not), the power comes in in unpredictable steps until you're over 3.5k rpm at which point it all smooths out and runs beautifully. It's this unpredictability that made me switch to using a different bike - on wet roads covered in leaves the steps in power were enough to unsettle the bike (with the wife on the back) and lead to a few unpleasant 'clenching' moments on bends until the rear regained grip
Really it's like the light throttle problem 'spreading' and getting more pronounced - have you experienced that too? I guess if you don't ride a lot in traffic you might not have.
I rode the GS in to work today after using another bike for about a month. To start with it seemed OKish (not brilliant, but bearable) but after half an hour or so it started to deteriorate. This is an aspect of it that I've not mentioned, I think.
After half an hour or so of riding, particularly in traffic, below about 3,500rpm as you accelerate (gently or not), the power comes in in unpredictable steps until you're over 3.5k rpm at which point it all smooths out and runs beautifully. It's this unpredictability that made me switch to using a different bike - on wet roads covered in leaves the steps in power were enough to unsettle the bike (with the wife on the back) and lead to a few unpleasant 'clenching' moments on bends until the rear regained grip
Really it's like the light throttle problem 'spreading' and getting more pronounced - have you experienced that too? I guess if you don't ride a lot in traffic you might not have.
I've got a few single spark motronics 2000 and 2001 , you could try it and see if it makes a difference..
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