Loomin hell

[sproggy]

I've got a few single spark motronics 2000 and 2001 , you could try it and see if it makes a difference..

Thanks for the offer Neil - if next week's investigation doesn't sort the problem I'll take you up on that. I know the part number is the same for all the 1150 single spark ECUs so age shouldn't matter other than wanting to try a non-2002 one.

I guess ECU failure is pretty much unheard of in your experience? Well, total failure anyway.

 

[monkeyboy]

There's more....
After half an hour or so of riding, particularly in traffic, below about 3,500rpm as you accelerate (gently or not), the power comes in in unpredictable steps until you're over 3.5k rpm at which point it all smooths out and runs beautifully. It's this unpredictability that made me switch to using a different bike - on wet roads covered in leaves the steps in power were enough to unsettle the bike (with the wife on the back) and lead to a few unpleasant 'clenching' moments on bends until the rear regained grip

Really it's like the light throttle problem 'spreading' and getting more pronounced - have you experienced that too? I guess if you don't ride a lot in traffic you might not have.

Sproggy - are you sure you're not riding my bike when I'm not looking? Mine was exactly the same until recently - it was like the throttle cable was loose. On/Off throttle turning into sideroads and on roundabouts was a complete lottery - it was just that on/off with no blending at all, just a sudden burst of power - like a flippin switch. I don't know exactly what I changed that stopped that particular habit but something has thank god. I changed the TPS and the Halls around then (which had a load of the Sahara still in it but I don't think that should have caused the fault) It hasn't done it badly for a while now even though it does it a little bit occasionally, but I think that is more down to the enduring trailing/light throttle problem + my continuous obsessing looking for the slightest hiccup.

Good to know you have some spares Neil - I may well be in touch

See what your mate says Sproggy - you never know your luck

 

[sproggy]

Sproggy - are you sure you're not riding my bike when I'm not looking?

Maybe we have the same bike, co-existing in two places via a wormhole in the fabric of space/time? What would happen if we tried to bring our two bikes together? Would they be like matter and antimatter, unable to co-exist?

I don't know exactly what I changed that stopped that particular habit but something has thank god. I changed the TPS and the Halls around then (which had a load of the Sahara still in it but I don't think that should have caused the fault) It hasn't done it badly for a while now even though it does it a little bit occasionally, but I think that is more down to the enduring trailing/light throttle problem + my continuous obsessing looking for the slightest hiccup.

Well if your lumpy power delivery has gone without an ECU replacement then that can't be the cause of that particular fault. It must be fixable, then. I haven't changed either TPS or Hall sensors (I have checked the TPS on an analogue meter, but only when cold) so maybe that's something to try.

See what your mate says Sproggy - you never know your luck

Yeah, something tells me that luck is what's needed in solving this one.....

 

[sproggy]

Thinking about this, the fact that changing your TPS and hall sensors cured the lumpy throttle response suggests to me that it was likely to be the TPS at fault. The TPS is an electrical item with components that could start to break down as they heat up (either from engine heat or just from the current flowing through them) and if the ECU isn't getting the correct signal from the TPS then of course throttle response will start going all over the place - it'll inject an amount of fuel that isn't appropriate to the throttle opening.

Ah, theories, whenever one gets shot down there are always plenty more in reserve

I haven't changed my TPS yet.......

 

[Steptoe]

Thinking about this, the fact that changing your TPS and hall sensors cured the lumpy throttle response suggests to me that it was likely to be the TPS at fault. ..

TPS would have registered a fault even if it was ok at the time, and it would have flagged up when i plugged in the diagnostic into monkeyboys bike. It showed no faults.

 

[sproggy]

TPS would have registered a fault even if it was ok at the time, and it would have flagged up when i plugged in the diagnostic into monkeyboys bike. It showed no faults.

I wasn't sure whether he'd changed it before or after you had the bike, or how many 'fuse 5 out' resets he might have done just before bringing it in to you. But how bad does a TPS have to get before it registers a fault in the Motronic? I mean, could returning an erratic (but within tolerance) voltage still happen without registering as a fault? I guess the easiest way to check that is just to change it and see if it helps......

 

[Steptoe]

I mean, could returning an erratic (but within tolerance) voltage still happen without registering as a fault? ..

I've had TPS faults come up as " fault present 98 times, not present now", clear the fault from the log run the bike for 10 minutes and then get "fault present 36 times, not present now" so i imagine it registers any fluctuation.

 

[sproggy]

Ah. OK, point taken

 

[monkeyboy]

Ah. OK, point taken

The thing that did show up I seem to remember was that the lamda wasn't showing what Neil expected. It should be like a nice smooth sign wave but it looked clipped on the top. We've both got non OE NGK lamdas haven't we? If I can remember where I've thrown it, I might put the original one back on and see what that does.

The fact that mine smoothed out after the Halls/TPS change might not be a factor as it sometimes doesn't happen for a couple of days anyway. The thing that absolutley DOES make a difference is the maps. I changed the map from Neils to another - I mistakenly put it between the centre and the one towards the front - i don't know what the numbers are - cos I thought that was standard and that smoothed it out. I went to Wales and it was better on the way up so I put it back to Neils and it immediately started acting like a beeeeeeatch again so I put it back to my original and it was better but not perfect. So maps definately make a big difference to mine. Having said all that - I'm back on Neils at the moment because the high speed running and pickup are much better.

The thing is, and I don't know whether this is common for all GSs, but blipping the throttle is often fluffy during downchanges. Not from high speed, just the little blips coming up to junctions and alike - it's not chrisp and immediate like it used to be on my S.... like it's got a heavy flywheel or something. It's probably not relevant. It's got a K&N in so that should let it breath I would hope

I just have to stop obsessing about this and try to forget about it.

 

[sproggy]

The thing that did show up I seem to remember was that the lamda wasn't showing what Neil expected. It should be like a nice smooth sign wave but it looked clipped on the top. We've both got non OE NGK lamdas haven't we? If I can remember where I've thrown it, I might put the original one back on and see what that does.

Yes, mine's an NGK too, but with it fitted the bike behaves exactly the same as it did with the OE Bosch one so I'd be surprised if that's the source of the problem.

The thing is, and I don't know whether this is common for all GSs, but blipping the throttle is often fluffy during downchanges. Not from high speed, just the little blips coming up to junctions and alike - it's not chrisp and immediate like it used to be on my S.... like it's got a heavy flywheel or something.

Mine's the same, and I don't remember my last 1150 being like that. I think they do have a pretty heavy flywheel anyway, but I put the fluffy response down to the same issue as the 'steps' in the power delivery - i.e. when the engine's hot, below 3k rpm it just doesn't respond as you'd expect when you open the throttle.

I just have to stop obsessing about this and try to forget about it.

Yeah, good luck with that..... The odd behaviour around 3k rpm on a light throttle I could possible live with and call 'character' (maybe.....) but the random throttle response below that speed I can't - it just makes the bike too unpredictable in traffic and on wet, slippery bends.

If it's no better after the attention it'll get on Monday then I'll take Neil up on his offer of a trial ECU because certainly in your case (less so in mine) there's pretty much nothing else left to try swapping! I don't believe for a minute that it's a mechanical problem inside the engine so what else is there? Aliens living in the sump?

 

[sproggy]

An update on this.

I've got the bike back from Steve and he has improved the way it runs noticeably. It's a real pleasure to ride......sometimes......






.......but the problem is still there, as bad as it ever was. In fact it's now even more pronounced because the bike's running so well at lower/higher revs and with larger throttle openings that the difference is more obvious. Neither BMW diagnostics nor the GS911 showed up any faults with the bike and Steve rode it but couldn't notice a problem which I guess simply means that he and I ride differently. Unfortunately I'm not willing/able to change the way I ride.

So the GS will get shoved to the back of the garage and I'll ride the other bike while I ponder on what to do with it. I could try another ECU. I could try another alternator. Or I could try a different bike....... Thing is, it runs so darn well now (outside of the problem revs/throttle opening) that I really don't want to get rid of it. It's a dilemma.

Any progress on yours, monkeyboy?

 

[monkeyboy]

An update on this.
Any progress on yours, monkeyboy?

Glad to hear you have some improvement anyway - that's good news..

mine... is 2 seconds away from a molotov cocktail at the moment

I drove up to London to do a job on Sunday in the cold and rain. Put the side stand down and went to step off and felt something give. Just managed to grab the bike before it went over into a nice shiny Discovery. Looked down, the feckin sidestand bolt circlip must have jumped ship, then the bolt with it. I grabbed the sidestand and it 'came off in my hand'. Good start Did the job, then went up to Huntingdon to collect and fit some Ard panniers, and on the way up the bike was farting around again. Went over to Kettering to get horizontal then to the NEC - bike running like shit now. Came back to Southampton and its running rough again...and... I think it's started its grabby throttle again sometimes. Ride to and from work today and it's definately getting worse and worse. Now its often bad at anything up to 60 and tickover doesn't sound right either.

So... I phoned Motorworks and paid them 240 of your earth pounds for another ECU to try. I can't think of anything else I can change and I'm running out of time before I go away. My plan is... A) run the ECU then after 2 minutes when I undoubtably feel the bike doing the same thing it is now b) change the fuel pump (I didn't want to do this cos I hate taking it out, then when that doesn't work it's c) return the ECU and go to PDQ for a diagnostic and possibly PC, then finally, when all that fails to fix it I'm going to ride to Russia, buy an RPG and blow the bastard to shit

 

[sproggy]

Welcome back to my world. Actually, my tickover is fine, but the problem is 'extending' up the rev range and to wider throttle openings such that it's even just there just noticeable at 70mph - certainly at 60.

Riding home this evening in the wet (rain hardly describes it) was a truly horrible experience - normally I don't mind the rain but the bike was playing silly buggers and that pi**ed me off, plus my wonderful (not) Hein Gericke trousers leaked. Sheltex, waterproof my a**e. If it's not Goretex it's not waterproof.

Anyway, I digress.

I'll be interested to hear how you get on with another ECU because that was my next step. No point in us both trying it, I guess - clearly we have the same problem and the fix will be the same too. I'm wondering about my alternator - I know the front bearing is shot and could it be binding and loading the engine? We've both said it feels like the brakes going on and off. Easy test - get the bike properly warmed up and in its 'bad zone' and then slip the belt off and run a few miles without the alternator. I have as much hope of that working as you have with the ECU, but what's to lose?

Sticking the bike on a dyno is a valid thing to try and I was thinking about just that on the way home. Stick an exhaust gas analyser on it, run it steady at 3000rpm and see what gives. But again.....maybe clutching at straws? Having tried an aftermarket chip I wouldn't put too much faith in a PC111 sorting it either - a richer map hasn't helped mine, although a custom map specifically to sort the problem in question might be one way to go - masking the problem if not identifying it. If it's a fuelling problem at all.

As for changing the fuel pump, the easiest way to test that is to persuade someone else with an 1100/1150 to let you borrow their whole tank - pump, filter, fuel - the lot. Tanks are easy to swap over. I'd offer mine, but under the circumstances that wouldn't prove anything.......!

Please keep posting as you try things and I'll do the same. And if all else fails we can meet up and 'toast' the problem together with that molotov cocktail

 

[monkeyboy]

Yep, I'll let you know. Sometimes tonight (wasn't that rain wonderful) it felt like some component was in it's death throws (fingers crossed!) so I'm not going to touch anything until I change the ecu. I wondered if the fuel pressure is low. The pump is whining but they do that and my one on my S has done it for at least 50k without a problem. Oh how I just want this flipping bike to run properly like the old days...

 

[Scuba-Sparky]

Hi All

Hi All

Just reading the thread, I to have an 02 1150 with all the same troubles that you (Monkey Boy, Sproggy) have, I changed the rectifier pack on my alternator, coil, fuel pump and spark plugs (from BMW) Still got the problem!

I also spoke with Neil ( the one and only Steptoe!) when we came back from Morocco, after 650 miles nothing between 3500 - 5500 rpm. Never stalled and pulled like a train above and below.

Reading with interest.

 

[sproggy]

Welcome to the club, Scuba-Sparky. All 2002 bikes. No-one else welcome

Monkeyboy, have you fitted that used ECU yet? The suspense is killing me!

Also, a question for both of you - what are your throttle bodies like? Mine were REALLY worn after only 24k miles (dodgy alloy? They usually last much longer than that) and I changed them for used ones with less (but still some) play. The 850 I've just picked up as a winter commuter has very worn TBs too and runs like a bad version of my 1150 (and that's saying something.....). I called Scrimingers about a rebuild but they're not up and running in their new place yet. Could it be wear in the TBs? That's mechanical so wouldn't show up on diagnostics and even worn TBs can be balanced perfectly......

Yet another theoretical log to throw on the fire.

 

[Scuba-Sparky]

Morning Sproggy

Not sure about the throttle bodies, will have a look later, when the frost lifts

 

[Littledumptruck]

Guys, there are now three of you suffering a similar fault on similar age bikes. Yet from scooting through all the threads again none of you has tried a different ECU yet.

Surely one of you, or all three as a group, need to source a replacement one and try it. Between you all, you've tried just about every other component, it must be long overdue to try the ecu, the whole thing. Its mentioned somewhere about a dry joint or something, and in my mind thats highly likely, as it's one thing that can cause such intermittent faults. I find the same when dealing with PCB's on gas boilers at work, intermittent faults are more often than not caused by dry joints.

I also believe that manufacturers always let QC drop as a component reaches the end of its normal production life, so the fact that yours are all last of the single spark models doesn't surprise me.

If you know earlier models use the same ecu, as has been mentioned, I'd give Motoworks/bins or sherlocks a try for an 00-01 one.

 

[monkeyboy]

Well.........I'm not sure if i want to break the spell just yet. If the bike sees me typing this I'm not sure what it will do, so I'll might have to leave you guessing a little while longer...

tick




tock



tick



tock


tick


was that long enough?

I fitted the ECU last weekend. Now take this with a pinch of salt as no matter what I say next, I'm still not 100% convinced. I am however 95% convinced. I've got a touch of flu de couchon this week along with 90% of the rest of the country it seems, and the weather has been non-condusive to making minute assessments of throttle positions but in most respects, it's like having your wife sent back for refurbishing and returned as an 18 year old olympic gymnast/swimmer virgin/HO combination. It has not messed me about once this week and the fueling throughout the whole rev range seems completely different. I even surprised myself pulling away from a roundabout the other day with the eagerness and willingness of the engine.

It might be my megga obsessiveness and hyper sensitivity but crusing at exatly 3k doesn't feel EXACTLY right when I'm sitting in the saddle...but... my shocks are shot and rock hard so every single bump gets through to the bars at low speed so it gives the impression of uneven fueling I reckon. If I stand up off road style and hold 3k it feels perfect cos there is more weight over the front and the small bumps are smothered. I've kept it on the standard map but it now feels like it's fueled on the more fuel one because it just takes off at any speed - probably just the way everyone elses does but it's been such a long time since mine has run right that it feels like new to me.

Tickover is even and constant - the low speed throttle blip still feels soft but I'll have to put that down to a heavy flywheel. The bike is just smoother throughout. I am very surprised at the difference it has made and I guess the proof is that I'm willing to keep it on and pay the £240. All things considered, I guess in my case there was vertually nothing else it could be as I'd changed everything else. It is weird that everyone says the units don't fail though. Mine has experienced extreems of temperature though - the heat of the Sahara through to hours of snow and ice so who knows. It would be good to know exactly what has failed. I'm guessing personally that it is something to do with the temp sensor or TPS connections.

Having said that - the bugger will probably start pissing me around again now on the way home...

So... as far as my bike is concerned... if it asks, I've not said anything right

I'll let you know again in another week. And remember, we still might not have the same problem. If you want to ride down and give my new ECU a go then come on down - if you want to try my old one and see how that treats you then I'll post it to you for a trial. That might at least show you the problems I was having and you can compare them with yours.

 

[monkeyboy]

Guys, there are now three of you suffering a similar fault on similar age bikes. Yet from scooting through all the threads again none of you has tried a different ECU yet.

Surely one of you, or all three as a group, need to source a replacement one and try it. Between you all, you've tried just about every other component, it must be long overdue to try the ecu, the whole thing. Its mentioned somewhere about a dry joint or something, and in my mind thats highly likely, as it's one thing that can cause such intermittent faults. I find the same when dealing with PCB's on gas boilers at work, intermittent faults are more often than not caused by dry joints.

I also believe that manufacturers always let QC drop as a component reaches the end of its normal production life, so the fact that yours are all last of the single spark models doesn't surprise me.

If you know earlier models use the same ecu, as has been mentioned, I'd give Motoworks/bins or sherlocks a try for an 00-01 one.

I don't know what year my replacement has come from - hopefully an early one by the sounds of it