Mental Tacho/Dead engine

[monkeyboy]

1150GSA 2002 - been standing in the garage over the summer but WAS running fine in May. I've previously spent a lot of time chasing an electrical gremlin that I eventually put down to the ECU. It was running ok but occassionally the tacho would go wild and start swinging about all over the shop - didn't effect the engine though.

Took it for an MOT today and on the way back it started jerking and misfiring worse than it has ever done. It was fine on the way to the MOT (about 5 miles) but as soon as I took it on the motorway the tacho started going wild and the engine was misfiring and jerking and cutting out. Coming to junctions it would stop and be reluctant to start and was getting worse - tacho still mental and showing what I would guess is real+4k at least.

About half a mile from home it just lurched and stopped completely. Wouldn't start so I pushed it home. Only preliminary checks so far - its getting fuel fine (I thought the filter might be buggered or the fuel jellified) but there is no spark. I f'kin hate electrical problems! I'm obviously going to have to go through some checks tomorrow but I was just wondering if the tacho wildness rang any bells with anyone on here to steer be in any direction before I start chucking the spanners and kicking the dog tomorrow.

Good job it passed the MOT

 

[DrFarkoff]

Search Hall Effect Sensor or HES in Oilhead section

 

[monkeyboy]

Search Hall Effect Sensor or HES in Oilhead section

Ta

I've got a spare in the garage and I've swapped them before so that will be on my list for tomorrow

I can't see how that would send the tacho wild though

 

[NeilDD]

Ta

I've got a spare in the garage and I've swapped them before so that will be on my list for tomorrow

I can't see how that would send the tacho wild though

Where do you think the tacho gets its pulses from????

intermittant signals so the needle jumps all over the place

 

[monkeyboy]

Where do you think the tacho gets its pulses from????

intermittant signals so the needle jumps all over the place

OK, I see that - but the engine was sometimes running smoothly when the tacho was going mental too and that made me think there may be a connection problem somewere other than the hall sensor.

I'll swap them over first anyway - it only takes 20 minutes and if that's it then I'll be very happy.

The thing is that I had to replace pretty well everything in the ignition circuit when chasing the last fault and I think the original 'f'ing about at 3k' fault was in fact never cured as it was doing this on the way to the MOT (just intermittently for a few seconds but I pretended it wasn't happening)

I hope it's the Hall.

 

[monkeyboy]

Well it's not the Hall - Looking at the one I took off I didn't think it could be, even though the bike started and ran after I changed it - I think it's just coincidence as this morning, 3 miles from home, phut phuttttttt, stop.... again. Same symptoms. Wild tacho as a portent of impending disaster with cutting out then stop. I left it and walked home so I've not looked at it yet. I left a sign on it saying 'please bring petrol, matches, and a bible. Recite the lords prayer backwards then burn me and send me to the hounds of hell for all eternity' so I'm not sure it'll still be there later if/when I can be bothered to pick it up. This bike has been nothing but trouble from the moment I got it 80k ago. I'm sure it's possessed, or at least, haunted. I have changed everything...everything on it... yes, whatever you're thinking of... I've changed that... up to and including the loom and it's still got some electrical gremlin hiding somewhere.

The tacho is obviously a symptom but I'm not sure what of. I'll have to memorise the wiring diagram again and see. This will all probably come down to a bad earth somewhere but as long as it's intermittent like this it's an absolute sod to identify. If I can't trust it then I'm not going to ride it more than 10 feet from the house either. Having the tank off must have jogged the fault back into contact - initially it started and ran rough with the tacho all over the place but once it had warmed up it was fine and it has been standing for a while so I thought it might be some damp. The other day I took it out for 15 miles and it was perfect all the way yet today - 3 miles and phut.

I really am very very tired of this flippin problem. Does any one know a priest who will come and exorcise it?

 

[DrFarkoff]

Strip the sheath of the loom up by the ignition and see if you have a broken wire

Also the strip the sheath on the front fairing bracket the central one and have a gander in there

Re HES Get a Used Tested one from motorworks Your "Spare" may be faulty?

If the symptoms remain the same then Return it under thier gaurantee

 

[Colban]

My 1150 displayed very similar symptoms to yours.
I changed the ig switch cable,the fuel pump assembly,found a shorted wire in the main loom under the battery tray and a corroded pin in the ECU.
Swapped relays and fuses.I was hearing a buzzing sound from the injectors and the tacho was jumping around a bit;changed the HES,now seems OK.
Petrol and matches on standby though.

 

[monkeyboy]

Strip the sheath of the loom up by the ignition and see if you have a broken wire

Also the strip the sheath on the front fairing bracket the central one and have a gander in there

Re HES Get a Used Tested one from motorworks Your "Spare" may be faulty?

If the symptoms remain the same then Return it under thier gaurantee

OK - I'll check the ignition - I've had 2 of them fail on my S so I know what I'm looking for there.. I had different symptoms there though - not misfiring and popping like this. If that wire breaks the engine cuts out completely whereas this is more of a missfire and shudder (before it dies!)

As for the HES's - having 2 exhibit exactly the same behaviour seems unlikely but I take your point. Thing is - the tacho can go bonkers when the engine is running fine which makes it even MORE anoying.

I've got a spare coil so I'll slip that on quickly first and see if that has an effect. I'll take another look round when I've got the tank off too.

 

[monkeyboy]

My 1150 displayed very similar symptoms to yours.
I changed the ig switch cable,the fuel pump assembly,found a shorted wire in the main loom under the battery tray and a corroded pin in the ECU.
Swapped relays and fuses.I was hearing a buzzing sound from the injectors and the tacho was jumping around a bit;changed the HES,now seems OK.
Petrol and matches on standby though.

I'll have a look at the ig cable. The fuel is fine, its a 'no or weak spark' scenario as whenever it stops like now there is NO spark. I've got another (possibly knackered - I replaced it) ECU I could try too. Fuel pump is noisy but aren't they all.

 

[beermonster]

Hi,

Share your frustration mine pissed me around for some time. Try all the simple stuff first clean all your connector blocks under the tank,fuses etc.

Check side/clutch/neutral safety cut off switches.

Haynes gives a fairly good check list, my problems turned out to be combination of above, the HES being the major issue it was failing every now and then before the problem just got steadily worse.

Latest problem was a sticking fuel pump relay. Be methodical assume nothing you will sort it in the end. Oh and check your battery sorry if i am rambling but it's Friday and i blame the wine.

Good luck

Simon

 

[monkeyboy]

Hi,

Share your frustration mine pissed me around for some time. Try all the simple stuff first clean all your connector blocks under the tank,fuses etc.

Check side/clutch/neutral safety cut off switches.

Haynes gives a fairly good check list, my problems turned out to be combination of above, the HES being the major issue it was failing every now and then before the problem just got steadily worse.

Latest problem was a sticking fuel pump relay. Be methodical assume nothing you will sort it in the end. Oh and check your battery sorry if i am rambling but it's Friday and i blame the wine.

Good luck

Simon

I'm assuming it's not the HES now as I've swapped 2 and the same is happening - famous last words! I can't do anything to it for the next two weeks then I'm going to clean all the connector blocks as you say then start the trawl (again!).

It was riding perfectly in May then it went in the garage for a few months and came out immediately sick so I'm hoping its something simple this time...but i doubt it.

Battery is a new Odessy. I'll check the side stand switch as I snapped the sidestand off and the stump is currently cable tied up - has been like that for about 10k though. Fuel doesn't seem to be the problem - its all about the spark. The fuel pump primes so it's not the ignition cable but I guess it could be the engine stop circuit.

 

[monkeyboy]

still hunting this...on and off..

I recovered the stricken bike, bought it back, tank off, plugs out. Crank the engine and I was getting what looks to me like a very weak, half hearted red spark. Certainly nothing like the normal 'cracking' spark. I disconnected all the multipugs, cleaned them with contact cleaner, put them all back. Not had any sort of spark since. Tried two different coils, a different ECU and different HT leads without effect. I know people will tell me its the HES but to me the HES would have no effect on the power of the spark and it seems to me there is a bad earth somewhere - I hope I've got a humble pie in the oven ready just in case though.

On the circuit diagram it shows the coil and the ECU both earthed to the frame somewhere I think, one with a brown and one with a black wire. The two brown earths I know of are under the left throttle body and on the ECU cradle. I've checked these out and now I'm hunting for the black wire earthing point.

Question is, could someone tell me where that one is connected please? I should know having replaced the flippin loom last year.... I'll dig out the old loom and trace it at the weekend unless anyone can tell me in the meantime.

ta

 

[DrFarkoff]

Question is, could someone tell me where that one is connected please? I should know having replaced the flippin loom last year.... I'll dig out the old loom and trace it at the weekend unless anyone can tell me in the meantime.

ta

Check under the battery box tray rear of engine Under tray is a main Earth point

 

[Steptoe]

I know people will tell me its the HES but to me the HES would have no effect on the power of the spark and it seems to me there is a bad earth somewhere - I hope I've got a humble pie in the oven ready just in case though.

.

ta

I've had bikes with a spark and fuel, would idle but not run with any throttle and it turned out to be the hall sensor.

In your quest to cure your long standing running problem did you ever change the starter motor ?

I only ask as i recently had an R1150R come in that would run rough and bugger about, and it turned out to be the starter motor.

 

[monkeyboy]

I've had bikes with a spark and fuel, would idle but not run with any throttle and it turned out to be the hall sensor.

In your quest to cure your long standing running problem did you ever change the starter motor ?

I only ask as i recently had an R1150R come in that would run rough and bugger about, and it turned out to be the starter motor.

The starter motor? That's a strange one! I've not changed that, and I don't have a spare unless I swap the one on my S. It's worth a try though. I'll get another HES from Motorworks next week on 'fix or return' just to make sure. The main earth strap onto the block i assume is ok as the other electrics are fine and the starter turns fine. I'll just have to get the old loom out and identify the circuits that way. It's just such a flippin pain. At least it has actually stopped working at all now rather than dicking about.

Thanks

 

[monkeyboy]

OK - I hope I've found this little bugger now and it might explain a few of the problems I've had recently. Namely the refusal to start, the intermittent mental tacho, the cutting out and breaking down... possibly even the cutting out at low revs/standstill it's been doing for a while now too.

I was pulling out what is left of my hair thinking what it could be, convinced it's not the HES and that it is a bad earth. I've checked the looms earth connections and they were fine. I was trying to get a reading from the coil connector and finding it difficult, but there was a good 12V there. I noticed that the connector is unusual in that it is removable and not molded.

I opened the plug and took out the connections - then it became clear

I'm sure you can see the problem. The coil has two pole connections. The connectors on the wires look like they have flared out, maybe due to wiggling the connector on/off. I reckon they were making little, and intermittently no connection leading either to the weak spark I kept seeing or to the total failure. Swapping coils must have taken them beyond any contact and caused spark death. I crimped up the connectors a bit - pushed them on a spare coil, checked they hadn't flared then connected to the bikes coil. Turn the starter and lovely cracking white sparks appear again
Put the tank on, starts first turn. No mental tacho, no misfire at all. I hope I've not spoken too soon and the fault returns but in my head it certainly explains the faults I was having.

So - it might be just another thing to check if your bike isn't running properly. IMO those connectors are wrong - its location means a wiggling to get the thing off and that flares the contacts.

 

[MattW]

Nice one

Glad you've got to the bottom of it.

 

[Aidan1150]

Put the tank on, starts first turn. No mental tacho, no misfire at all. I hope I've not spoken too soon and the fault returns but in my head it certainly explains the faults I was having.

Good job MonkeyBoy, and hopefully that will be an end to your woes.

Isn't it incredible though that something which seems so trivial can have such a dramatic effect on how your bike runs.

So - it might be just another thing to check if your bike isn't running properly. IMO those connectors are wrong - its location means a wiggling to get the thing off and that flares the contacts.

As you say, it's hopefully something that will help some us at some point. Such a shame that you have suffered all the heart-ache and head scratching in the quest for that knowledge.

 

[monkeyboy]

As you say, it's hopefully something that will help some us at some point. Such a shame that you have suffered all the heart-ache and head scratching in the quest for that knowledge.

I'm just happy to find something definate that makes sence to me with respect to the faults. I like a 'challenge' but I do get a bit fed up with it sometimes! I took it out for a few miles today and it didn't miss a beat. It's done that before though. It did however tick over nicely even in the cold. I'll see how it goes from here, fingers crossed!