There has been a lot of activity and comments made following this posting and the listing of a set of panniers by Alex T in the for sale and wanted section including allegations of an orchestrated witch hunt and criticism of the moderators handling of the matter.
As the original owner of the panniers which I was more than happy with I passed them on to Alex with my 1200 last year, he contacted me in February asking for the receipt as he had an issue with the finish on one of them, I explained Civil did not operate with receipts but that would not be necessary.
From this point things developed to a situation no one wanted but to put some perspective on the issue I believe the correspondence involved between the 3 of us needs to be posted in an attempt to put an end to conjecture and speculation.
The point of contention is that a fault developed with the coating of pannier, Civil’s initial reply was that we had struck too tight a deal to offer a warranty, mine that the deal was not the issue it was the fact that the panniers had a fault in the coating.
When we negotiated the deal on the panniers haggling was involved, Civil is not a novice at haggling and neither am I, part of the discussions were that my bikes got attention both on the net and out on the road so it would be good publicity for Caja Sahel, and result in sales, I stand over this and had no hesitation on recommending the panniers to anyone including Alex when he asked about them. I still maintain that view on the panniers in general.
As emails progressed we moved from a tight deal to monies being owed which varied from £175 and £150 in telephone conversations with Tuned and Paul BHT to £100 in an email to Alex T.
The deal negotiated for the panniers and fitting kit from my records was £500 in cash with me supplying my own stainless steel locks, which would have cost £100 from Civil.
Civil states that this was below cost, knowing him as I do I personally don’t believe that.
Alex became more and more frustrated by not receiving responses to his emails, and when he did his questions were not answered adding to his frustration. Only then did he contact the moderators to see if a resolution could be found.
It's a sorry business as I've always got on with Civil and liked him but I believe in sticking to my principles, in this case we are totally at different ends of the spectrum and I can't see that changing.
Tuned In has always been fair in his moderation on the site, not popular at times but consistent in his appreach.
Alex T has been on the site for quite a while, not a high profile poster but having met him and talked with him a decent guy who like me looks after his bikes.
I stand over a comment I made to Civil that if the situation made it on the site it would not be good, this was not a threat but my opinion and it seems from what's happened I was right unfortunately.
Of course people will read this and still have there own opinions but some of the comments so far on both "sides" of the situation are totally out of order.
Here's the emails:
from Aleks Talikowksi
to Roger Gillespie
date Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:23 PM
subject Fwd: Caja Sahel Adventure Luggage
Hi Roger,
Thanks for getting back to me earlier.
I've enclosed 2 pix taken of the bubbling that has occured on the left hand pannier that I sent to Philip at Caja Sahel. Also the response he sent back to me, don't know if you can offer an opinion on his response, as I feel it's a little unfair - the finish on powder coating has been clearly compromised - and I would've hope that some sort of warranty or guarantee was in place. Unfortunately the pictures don't do the deformation much justice. Sorry to bother you with this, I'm a little lost as to what to do, I don't know if you know Philip well enough to ask him to reconsider?
Many thanks as always Roger and apologies again for burdening you with my troubles!
All the best
Alex
From: philipmcgonagle
Date: 16 February 2009 21:38:21 GMT
To: Alex Talikowski
Subject: Caja Sahel Adventure Luggage
Alex.
Unless the Paint is actually away from the Surface , i would suggest to leave it alone, in Every single case there are Minor imperfections.
If its a big deal or you just dont like it , you can have the Pannier
re-coated.
Alas , the Deal that i had with Rodger was a tight one and i would be very reluctant to offer any warranty ,on these.
Rgds Philip
from Roger Gillespie
to philipmcgonagle
date Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 11:31 AM
subject Panniers
Philip
I've been contacted by Alex Talikowski regarding a problem with the finish of the Caja Sahel panniers I got from you last July, to say I'm disappointed and shocked at your response is an understatement.
From Alex's description and pictures its clear there is an issue with the powder coating on the panniers, these are not minor imperfections they are clearly a fault with the powder coating process which is not in keeping with the description on your website " The Powdercoat finish is applied using the " Pre heat , Powder , Heat " to achieve an even gloss finish. This is an extremely hard wearing finish "
Under the circumstances I would expect any manufacturer to sort a problem like this immediately as the panniers are clearly not suitable for the purpose they were designed and sold for and not try to get the customer to accept it.
I recommended the panniers to Alex and others and you have brought me into the situation with your email so I expect you to sort this issue out immediately either by replacing the panniers with a new set or arranging to have them collected and recoated to the correct finish.
Let me know what you propose by return.
Roger
from mcgonaglebus
to Roger Gillespie
date Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 6:09 PM
subject Panniers
Rodger
I was Nailed on the Price of these , i sold them below cost as part of a deal.
Thats pretty much it
What would you have me do ?
Philip
From Roger Gillespie
to mcgonaglebus
date Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 6:15 PM
subject Re: Panniers
Philip
The cost has nothing to do with it, they are not right and need fixing either replace them or get them re-coated pure and simple, if you bought a new nike as part of a deal from a supplier and it was defective you'd expect nothing less than to have it sorted.
If Alex went public on the site about this (which he has not as I told him to wait ) you'd be crucified.
Get back to me I have to ring him tonight
Roger
From: philipmcgonagle
Date: 17 February 2009 18:17:36 GMT
To: Alex Talikowski
Subject: Caja Sahel Adventure Luggage
Alex ,
I sold the said Panniers at less than Cost , as part of another Deal ,
which i am far from happy about the outcome of that in itself.
He stated he ""Was more than surprised"" in honesty that man has balls.
The Sale isnt even in the Sales book.
In the Interest of Protection of the Brand name , and with absolutely no Regard
or Rodger or his opinions , i may well , make you an offer , but it is by no
means a waranty.
To say i am Slightly pissed off by the Email from Rodger ,is an understatement
from philipmcgonagle
to Roger Gillespie
date Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 6:19 PM
subject Panniers
The more i think about this , the more i have to laugh .
You are Some Boy Rodger.
So , what are you proposing ?
From Roger Gillespie
to philipmcgonagle
date Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 6:21 PM
subject Re: Panniers
Philip
If Alex did not have them I'd be making a proposal, you need to contact him and sort it out.
Roger
From: Aleks Talikowksi
Date: 17 February 2009 22:00:04 GMT
To: philipmcgonagle
Subject: Re: Caja Sahel Adventure Luggage
Good evening Philip,
Hope all's well with you.
I don't know if you've had a chance to speak to Roger yet but I'm hoping you've had a chance to mull over the issue here, which is a fault with your product (a very fine product) still within it's first year of ownership.
I really do hope we can resolve this amicably and like the good gentlemen I'm sure we all are.
The ball is in your court and I'm ready and waiting to hear any suggestions you have (other than ignoring the problem).
In an ideal world the panniers would be replaced like for like, if you have an alternative that works for us both, then great stuff.
As I said, the ball is in your court.
All the best
Alex
On 17 Feb 2009, at 20:13, philipmcgonagle
>
> Alex ,
> I have just tried again to phone Rodger , thats twice.
> I will be in touch
>
>
> Rgds Philip
From: philipmcgonagle
Date: 18 February 2009 09:12:12 GMT
To: Aleks Talikowksi
Subject: Re: Caja Sahel Adventure Luggage
Alex ,
I spoke with the Powder coater this morning , he says
Its very unlikely heat caused the Blemish on the Box.
Can you get better pictures please.
As for Rodger , he hasnt shifted one inch.
From: philipmcgonagle
Date: 18 February 2009 09:16 GMT
To: Aleks Talikowksi
Subject: Re: Caja Sahel Adventure Luggage
Alex on Examination , i dont see any of the Reflectives melted or distorted either
is there some other reason for the Markings
From: Alex Talikowski
Date: 18 February 2009 11:55:20 GMT
To: philipmcgonagle
Subject: Re: Caja Sahel Adventure Luggage
Good Morning Philip.
My conclusion, having done some research and taken advice, would be that the aluminum wasn't prepped properly, thus causing the paint to bubble and come away from the metal surface. I hasten to add, that this is my diagnosis and the one that seems to make the most sense of what's happened. Heat, I don't think is to blame.
If I may say so Philip, you do seem very reticent to offer any explanation or a solution to this problem, I'm becoming increasingly aware with each communication from yourself, that you are looking for alternative causes and not really getting to the heart of the matter, which is a fault in the product which you are selling.
Could you please make it clear to me now, whether you are willing to deal with this problem or merely continue in your current course of diverting attention. I only ask now, so as not to waste any more of your time and mine in trying to find a solution.
Again, the ball is in your court and I'm eagerly awaiting a decent response/ solution to this matter.
All the best
Alex
from mcgonaglebus
to Roger Gillespie
date Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 12:30 AM
subject Re: Panniers
The Cost has everythimg to do with it Rodger ,
you may have got a good price for them, i didnt i lost on the deal.
You said you would sell at least 3 sets , for them at the price, which was below
cost , and now yor sayin , i have to take another hit on them ,..
The site can judge for itself , i would imagine they would take a dim view
of the way they were got in the first instance .
From: philipmcgonagle
Date: 18 February 2009 14:14 GMT
To: Aleks Talikowksi
Subject: Re: Caja Sahel Adventure Luggage
Alex
Yes i am Trying to find out what happened ,
No the Ball is not in My Court , As soon as i am paid in Full
I will afford you a full warranty
From: Alex Talikowski
Date: 18 February 2009 14:19:35 GMT
To: philipmcgonagle
Subject: Re: Caja Sahel Adventure Luggage
Sorry Philip,
I'm trying to understand the last email, I take it that money is outstanding?
Who owes who and how much?
And once paid, a full warranty will be in action?
What would then happen to the problem panniers?
Please answer these questions as fully as possible, so that I can sort this out, as I'm now getting rather frustrated by the whole episode.
best
Alex
From: Alex Talikowski
To: philipmcgonagle
Good morning Philip
Hope you are well.
Enclosed are some 'hopefully' slightly clearer photos of the defect in the panniers you sold less than a year ago and are now claiming that there is no warranty on them.
You can clearly see the bubbling of the powder coating, which I can only imagine over time will get worse.
I have written to you in the past few days and clearly stated I would like a simple and pleasant resolution to this.
I have given you the benefit of the doubt and afforded you so many opportunities to respond to emails and open up dialogue in order to come to a mutually beneficial resolution.
You have displayed nothing but bad manners.
I am quite disgusted by your behavior and your lack of any understanding of customer service.
Quite how you run a business on the principles and methods displayed so far is beyond me.
So now you leave me with no other choice than to publicise the whole rather boring and in some cases (your responses via email) comical affair.
I have already contacted the Moderators on UKGSER and they are quite surprised that I have not already done this, but as I have clearly stated before, I do not (or did not) believe in attracting publicity to this.
I am going to though, if only to stop other people making the mistake of believing your product is a well finished item and that the level of customer service that people expect from purchasing an item like this would be a good one. Your product is, after all, a highly priced item and one that you would expect to have better manufacturing procedures.
In speaking to the moderators it has come to light that I may not be the only person on the site to have had dealings with you which have been less than professional. And in the spirit of the site, it is important to share information such as this, in order to keep standards high and people informed of the potential pitfalls of dealing with problematic suppliers.
You have sought to be dishonest about your original dealings with Mr.Gillespie and fabricated all sorts tales in an attempt detract from facing up to the original problem.
I have to re-iterate just how appalled I am.
All the very best
Alex
From: philipmcgonagle
Date: 20 February 2009 19:49:15 GMT
To: Aleks Talikowksi
Alex
Once again.
The Set you have was sold as a Dsiplay set on the understanding that other sales
would come from it or the difference paid.
I didnt respond to your Emails , simply because i didnt like your tone. Nor do i.
Why you contacted the Mods at the Gs site is beyond me , this has nothing to do with them
Again , if Rodger decides he want to pay , the monies due , then i will have your
pannier re-coated .
This is not a Big Deal , and indeed not even Expensive to repair , but i Most
Certaintly NOT be Caught by Rodger again whatever the Circumstances.
You Paid him For a product that he hadnt paid for.
In the past where a legitimate problem has presented itself , i have dealt with it
head on . This however does not qualify
From: philipmcgonagle
Date: 20 February 2009 20:05:39 GMT
To: Aleks Talikowksi
Alex
This is just a thought.
Ask yourself , why would an entirely reasonable chap . endanger ,a well managed
brand image for the sake of such a small amount of money.
to recoat the offending pannier would cost £40 .
From: Aleks Talikowksi
Date: 22 February 2009 09:45:52 GMT
To: philipmcgonagle
Philip
> This is just a thought.
> Ask yourself , why would an entirely reasonable chap . endanger ,a well managed
> brand image for the sake of such a small amount of money.
> to recoat the offending pannier would cost £40 .
I couldn't agree more with the above.
You had enough time to respond to my emails. You didn't.
As for not liking my tone, I find that comment particularly offensive, I displayed nothing but patience and good manners (re-read the emails). right up until the last email (where my patience finally broke) where I outlined my intentions to make the episode public, at which point you decide to respond.
Philip, why don't you ask yourself a question along the lines of, what would yo do in my situation? I know what I would do in yours.
If it's such a small amount of money, I can't believe that you have been so rude and belligerent throughout.
I was at one stage going to offer to help with costs, unfortunately that bridge burned a while ago.
I contacted the mods to see if they could help, seeing as all attempts by myself failed, funny how it seems to have made the difference - another example of your 'well managed brand?'
I sent you a comprehensive list of questions to try to get to the root of the problem, about monies outstanding etc, did you respond? NO.
How is anyone to know how to resolve the issue, if you choose to bury your head in the sand?
As for display items, and unpaid for items, I don't think anyone would believe a well managed brand and company would sell a product with such a considerable cost without issuing some sort of agreement either way - or for that fact a product which would display a fault so soon after purchase. 'Un-appropriate preparation of the aluminum would lead to the powder coating bubbling' is what I have been told. One good thing to come form all of this, is that I'm now considerably more informed on this process than before!
What went on with you and Roger previously, clearly has 2 sides to the story (or three or four if your ever changing series of events is to be believed) therefore I can do nothing but believe Roger's appraisal seeing as he has always been honest and decent and has a highly regarded reputation for being so. I guess we'll find out if your reputation is held in the same regard (I'm sure it is) when I make my post and believe me I will. I have never been treated so appallingly and feel it an obligation to warn others before they consider your product.
I genuinely look forward to hearing from you again.
All the best
Alex
From: philipmcgonagle
Date: 22 February 2009 14:55:00 GMT
To: Alex Talikowski
Subject: Re: Caja Sahel Adventure Luggage
Alex ,
My story hasnt changed at all.
Its the Same simple story. The Panniers were sold as a display model.
There was no guarentee given or implied.
rodger entered into an agreement with me that he didnt keep.
This was a trade sale. It was a duty on his part to inform you of such.
You paid the Full Second hand price for them, probably more than what i got.
From Aleks Talikowksi
to philipmcgonagle
cc Roger Gillespie
date Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 5:29 PM
subject Re: Caja Sahel Adventure Luggage
Philip
I'm sending this to Roger as well so everyone is in the loop.
In order that all the facts are straight and no errors are made, please could you answer the following questions:
1:
If Roger owed you money as you have stated in previous emails, why have you not asked for it?
2:
You have never stated how much is outstanding, maybe you would like to enlighten us all now?
3:
When you say that these were 'display' panniers, where on display were they? Do you have a shop?
4:
The agreement that has not been kept, what was it?
5:
The panniers were sold as part of the bike in the deal I did with Roger, please tell me what you consider them to be worth?
6:
Please also tell me the NEW price for the panniers.
7:
And also the 'Display price'.
Please do try and answer these brief questions, as always your cooperation will be gratefully received.
All the best
Alex
From: philipmcgonagle
Date: 23 February 2009 00:01:28 GMT
To: Aleks Talikowksi
Subject: Re: Caja Sahel Adventure Luggage
Philip
The cost has nothing to do with it, they are not right and need fixing either replace them or get them re-coated pure and simple, if you bought a new nike as part of a deal from a supplier and it was defective you'd expect nothing less than to have it sorted.
______________________________________________________________________________________________
The above is an extract that rodger emailed to me.
He still hasnt returned my calls. It shows an acknowledgement that there is a money issue
outstanding.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Alex .
Your last email has a rather condecending tone.
Do you Honestly expect a prompt answer on a Sunday Night ?.
I have my own work and a business to run.
As you may have figured , i dont make Bike Parts for a Living.
My Livelihood Takes precedence. Absolute.
In relation to your Questions.
rodger is well aware of the situation. He Knows.
The Amount he promised to pay was £100.
By display , he said he was going to sell the Caja Sahel Panniers
but he would need a set at the Right money ,for folks to see ,this is what i mean by
display set.He had absolutely no intention of selling my product.He merely used this
to get a set on the Cheap.
The Panniers new cost £650.
On the whole i regret this situation has arisen , but i cannot let myself
fall foul to him again. Which i will not let happen - regardless.
From Roger Gillespie
to mcgonaglebus
cc Alex T
date Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:36 AM
subject 1200 Panniers
Philip
From conversations and correspondence I've had and received on the subject
of the 1200 GS panniers it seems that there are some mixed messages
involved, in an attempt to clarify this finally perhaps you could answer the
following:
You have informed Alex that I have not returned your calls and this
indicates I owe you money. I have no record of any calls from you, when were
they made and who did you leave messages with?
How much money do are you saying you are owed and how has this figure been
calculated?
If you are now saying the panniers are not covered by warranty because money
is due to you why did you not say this when Alex contacted you initially?
How long has this alleged money been owed and why has it never been
mentioned until now?
I have copied Alex in on this email to ensure he is kept in the loop.
Regards
Roger
from mcgonaglebus
to Roger Gillespie
date Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 11:57 AM
subject 1200 Panniers
Rodger
As you well know there is money owed.
You told me you would sell at least 3 sets on the strength
of getting that set "Right" . I do believe the outstanding is £100.00 as agreed with you
on the day.
We had this conversation at the Zoo.
I called you twice last week.
I am Adamant and will not give an inch on this .
To that end i have sought legal advice yesterday and i reckon i am 100% right
if i get the Panniers i am within my rights to exercise a lien on them and i will.
I also lay claim to the Panniers as in they are Mine until paid for.....
From Roger Gillespie
to mcgonaglebus
cc Alex T
date Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 12:14 PM
subject Re: 1200 Panniers
Phiip
You have not answered the questions I asked you.
When did you call me and who did you leave messages with so I could get back to you?
How have you calculated the figure that you claim is owed?
How long has this alleged money been owed and why has it never been
mentioned until now?
Regards
Roger
from mcgonaglebus
to Roger Gillespie
date Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 12:55 PM
subject 1200 Panniers
Its owed because you didnt keep your side of the Deal.
You said that you would give the Full Money if you didnt sell Boxs. Three sets was the Figure , Your figure i hasten to add !. I just wanted coverage which never amounted to much .
It never been Mentioned because i dont really care.
what i do care about,, is the fact that this is a double whammy and i wont wear it.
As i say i have sought advice and as far as i am concerned i am right.
I havent taken this lightly , as you know the Bikes are a Passion , nowt to do
with money as such . I have spoken to several people whos Opinions i respect and they are all singing from the Same hym sheet. Yesterdays Professionsal Adveice only confirmed my path.
I obviously didnt go there for the Spefic reason of this situation.
Its coming off Broad shoulders and i can bear ,,,, Whatever the outcome.
We are Talking a genuinely partly sum , here very little will do it , But very little
it will be.Regardless.
I dont want to seem unreasonable , and you know i am not , But i am no DUD.
And will not be Driven to anything i dont want to do.
i am part of this big happy UKGSer family brother
)
