Positioning

[davnjud]

thanks for the replies. reinforcing some things I have heard through my IAM training - ' don't sacrifice safety for position' , anticipate worse case. what i like is the idea of flexibilty in thinking about lines and not using a one size fits all approach. this is certainly how i will be speaking to my traineees when I hope to qualify as an observer this year.

these brow of a hill bends seem to have potential to catch of us out if we take a wide line. Interesting to hear Giles saying that he keeps well to nearside round one such and this is how i will approach this similar bend in future. managed today to get some photos taken of ther bend i was speaking about below. I was further out and think I saw the van just after the point at which the second photo was taken. last one is view the other way

 

[Pukmeister]

Your local IAM group must have far higher standards than the ones I've seen.

Which is why I haven't tried my local group:

I followed a guy who shall remain nameless, an IAM badge proudly on display on his bike, up to the then SPC dealership via the A32. Some of his overtakes were damned risky, taken late and not executed as briskly as seemed reasonable, causing oncoming cars to alter their lines. I felt like ripping the bloody sticker off his bike.

A great thread, it's making me think again about some of my own riding habits and how I could improve on them.

 

[Micky]

squaddie like mentality of 'Ive been told, so this is what I do..'. Black and white.

I still see, (occasionally) some of guys I work with go sailing into a left hand bend, a car comes into view and they have to abruptly change course back to the nearside, and the oncoming drivers eyes are on stalks. Not often to be fair, but it still happens from time to time, and it drives me nuts!

"Why were you there??"

"To see into the bend"

"But it's completely blind, and the road is narrow, and you're doing 60mph, an oncoming car doing say 50, thats a closing speed of 110 mph!! For what, three or four feet of vision? Why do it? It was of absolutely no benefit to you what so ever!"

"But that's what we do, we approach left handers from the off side, that's what we were taught...".

To me, having received all that training, they commit the sin of not taking their knowledge to the next, higher, masters degree, of applying flexibility, experience, adaptability, to different scenarios. There seems to be a need sometimes, to over egg the pudding, rather than paradoxically, being smarter, by being simpler.

Don't get me wrong - I'll use the whole road if it warrants it, drag my panier in the off side hedge!! .. but it's that test ...it's almost like JAPAN 'ing it ... is it justified, appropriate, proportionate, necessary .....?

Will I benefit, or am I potentially putting myself on offer, for, two,three feet of extra vision.......?

I hear what you say about being on your side of the road, and not being out for a view.

There's a nasty bend near me that is a crested left hander. Oncoming traffic are faced with a crested right hander and it naturally pulls them onto their off side. Contrary to all the positioning rules, I've learned to go round this one hugging the kerb !!

Absolutely and totally agree

Keep it coming Giles ...

 

[Wapping]

There has never been any rule that "this is a It has always been my experience that positioning is dependent upon all the prevailing conditions. That may include 'local knowledge' (as in your example) but that said, if your speed is such that you cannot safely alter your position you have got 'feature six, the degree of acceleration to clear the hazard' (or the 'A' of IPSGA in the modern parlance) wrong.

Spot on. The word 'MUST' cannot be used in the context of this is 'such-and-such bend, I must be positioned here or there". It is not an absolute.

Indeed, the IPSGA letters tell you that.

Information starts (comes before) the other four letters for sure, but it doesn't end there. It embraces the other letters rather like a lozenge; so it is there in the middle and at the end, just as much as it is at the start.

You use (and keep using) the Information to determine your Position, which dictates your Speed.... Gear.... etc. etc. amending each as the Information you are receiving and (I hope) using changes. Take... Use..... Give..... The T and the U are very apt in this context.

Of course local knowledge can help, too. It would be a foolish bod who did not use it...... but equally, a foolish bod who over relied on it just because it has been OK on the 3,000 other occasions.

As Gile's example of bods ploughing into narrow lefthand bends regardless from a bad (too wide) offside position confirms: It is useless receiving Information if you do not process it with some Imagination and Act on it. I compare it to touching an iron to see if it is hot..... when it might be easier to imagine that it might well be, so spitting a little on you finger tips (or even perhaps on the sole of the iron) first may just stop you getting burned. Surrender a bit of the offside (and your view) and therefore your speed should reduce to compensate, requiring (possibly) a different gear....

 

[Giles]

these brow of a hill bends seem to have potential to catch of us out

Generally speaking (no black and whites and all that..) it's good practise to tuck it in a bit on any brow of a hill. The fors and againsts are being nearside and having a problem with something on your nearside (say a pair of cyclists), verses being too far out and meeting something oncoming that's on your side of the road for some reason.
Interesting how similar your and my photos or the car drivers view is. Almost identical cresting right handers.



Going back to your post re spooking yourself and having a moment, I remember many many years ago ( 17? 18? on a vfr 750) going into a double bend on a rural road in Essex too quickly. I was fine on the first right hander, but now too quick for the immediate left hander and found myself clinging onto my side of the road by a gnats whisker. I met an oncoming tipper truck and honest to God I thought my time was up!! I missed it by mm's. It was one of those moments where you stop afterwards and say to yourself, FFS, you nearly died there, what the feck were you thinking of!! It all goes back to Micky's experience v bag of luck.

(Obviously I've had quite a few 'moments' since then , but that was as close as i've ever come to killing myself !!)

 

[MikeP]

Generally speaking (no black and whites and all that..) it's good practise to tuck it in a bit on any brow of a hill.

This thread started off well and you avoided doing what you have got sucked into doing now and that's giving advice on specific road lay-outs (provided in this case by photos). It's like trying to critique an observed ride at a remove and that cannot be done adequately (or accurately).

There are no "generally good" practices. There are only the correct practices for the conditions at the time.

Take your advice to "tuck it in a bit on any brow of a hill."

As well meaning as that is, it gives the impression that a certain layout at a certain location may be approached and dealt with in a formulaic manner. It's wrong to do that. It needs to be dealt with each and every time according to the prevailing conditions.

Routinely adopting any position according to the physical layout is contrary to everything Roadcraft says.

The mistake made by many of those self-taught from Roadcraft is to believe that the System is rigid in its application. The only rigidity is in the consideration of the features, not the application of them. You are in danger of reinforcing that erroneous belief.

 

[Giles]

Generally speaking........ (no black and whites and all that..) ...... The fors and againsts are......

I don't read that as too prescriptive. Quite the opposite, I've been at pains throughout the whole thread to get people to be flexible in their thinking.

I stand by what I say though, by and large if you're heading into a blind crest, irresprctive of whether it's on a bend or not, it's a pretty good idea to tuck it in to the nearside a bit. That's not being overly prescriptive, it's using yer loaf.

Routinely adopting any position according to the physical layout is contrary to everything Roadcraft says.

The mistake made by many of those self-taught from Roadcraft is to believe that the System is rigid in its application. The only rigidity is in the consideration of the features, not the application of them. You are in danger of reinforcing that erroneous belief.

I don't disagree, and as well meaning as your reply is, you're going down a route that I've deliberately avoided. All of these threads have deliberately tried to get away from roadcraft and talk of the system (although inevitably it's going to arise here and there). There has been an effort to make these threads user friendly with a common sense approach. You should have read the back lash in the comments section when the threads first started; most of the talk was "FFS, I came over to this forum from the BMW one to get away from all that crap..."

Start banging on about 'applications of the system' and 'feature six' and people will glaze over and switch off.

 

[MikeP]

I stand by what I say though, by and large if you're heading into a blind crest, irresprctive of whether it's on a bend or not, it's a pretty good idea to tuck it in to the nearside a bit. That's not being overly prescriptive, it's using yer loaf.

"By and large" is the same as "generally speaking" and are counter to "using yer loaf" (for the reason I stated earlier and I won't bother repeating).

You should have read the back lash in the comments section when the threads first started; most of the talk was "FFS, I came over to this forum from the BMW one to get away from all that crap..."

I did read them from the first, I anticipated the comments and wasn't surprised. I have no beef with the idea, I think that the purpose is commendable, I just think that straying away from the theory into specific guidance is misplaced.

Start banging on about 'applications of the system' and 'feature six' and people will glaze over and switch off.

They switched-off when reading the title (as the comments on your first topic demonstrated).

 

[Rasher]

They switched-off when reading the title (as the comments on your first topic demonstrated).

No, I am still here (just)

Nobody has mentioned "Spidey Senses" and "Eeebie Jeebies", these normally tell me when to tuck in a little / slow down a bit, most of these pictured bends would initially set of the Spidey sense and if I ignored it the Eeebie Jeebies would kick in as I got closer to the point of potential danger.... regardless of what any book / system / friendly advice I have had in the past.

3 weeks to bikesafe for me, hoping to add some new tools to the current superpowers

 

[davnjud]

200 mile ride out today with my local IAM group with hundreds of fast bends.

Great advice about tucking in on crested bends ( when appropriate !) Giles, - worked an treat in boosting my confidence and giving safe passage to oncoming vehicles. It's the accumulation of little tips like this that make all the difference. I have done 10 000 miles of country road riding in the last year and I have to say that by doing bikesafe, taking IAM advanced training and making use of forum discussions like this my confidence and riding ability has been transformed. Now I confidently keep up with the lead bike and when not number 2 am sometimes gratified to see the bikes behind copying my line as opposed to the bike I am following.

Just a small plea against IAM bashing which seems quite a regular sport on here. I don't display my badge because it might seem ostentatious. What I have noticed about fellow members is that they not all naturally gifted riders which is perhaps why many like me were drawn to the IAM in first place to try to get better. Good for you if you are a Rossi in waiting but why attack an institution that has helped many to ride safer and better even if some of its members still have things to learn ( and are in the right place to get that advice)

off the soapbox now and, as usual, finding the the thin black line threads a source of great interest and relevance

 

[Giles]

Good stuff! I'm genuinely pleased that you feel that your riding has improved. And it's a great feeling when you slowly but surely progress from new boy at the back, nervous and unsure, to a rider that is happy to take the helm and show others the ropes. Well done!

 

[demonbiker]

Lurking in the background, but keep it coming!

Like all the different opinions and views on "right way" to do things!!
Entertaining and informative!

 

[davnjud]

a bit more of the same on left handers. (BTW several weeks on finding the tucking in on crested left handers is really confidence inspiring.)

now how about those very tight 90 degree left handers round the end of fields ?

good to offside when its safe to do but whether offsiding or not I am finding it better not to try and ride around the outside of the bend ( position 3) but to make an arc which gets close to the apex / inner curb of the bend (position1) at the halfway point through the bend. this gives a bigger radius to the turn and if there is suddenly an oncoming vehicle the tightening necessary is easier to do

any one else consciously change their technique for these little teasers ?

 

[James Bryan]

Try tipping in a little later?

Davnjud -- Most road riders tend to tip into a corner too early which can, if things go pear-shaped, lead to issues on the exit, (pushing them out toward oncoming traffic on left-handers).

Impossible to really comment without seeing you ride, but consider going "deeper" into the bend before you initiate the turn - affords you better vision, results in fewer nasty surprises, gives you the opportunity to accelerate more as you exit.

Of course (?) it goes without saying that this technique requires you to enter the bend carrying less speed - "slow in quick out".

I'd be interested to learn if this has helped or hindered.

All the best, Jim.

 

[rjsmith26]

This is a great thread, really like the examples, pictures etc.

I'm not an advanced rider, riding for 15 years and like to think I have fairly good road sense, but always keen to learn.

My only observation / scare on here is how much time spent tight onto left side of carriageway when out of town.

Both in car and bike I am maybe fortunate of having minimal experience of having "near miss head on's", and I do appreciate the risk of oncomming traffic,

However - I have had many many many people / wildlife / vehicles appear from country hedges / hidden tracks / driveways to houses and watching Giles's video I am almost watching through my hands on some of the footage and (what if something comes out the hedge etc).

I learn't car position on lanes / out of town to be out where safe so that when a 'surprise' appears out the hedge you have at least some time. I guess I ride the bike similarly and am questioning if I am wrong?

To me tucked in on LHS for RH bend - yep no problem, but this thread is making we question if I should be spending more time in tight to verge? which is completely what I don't do as in my assessment of risk - an oncomming vehicle on the otherside of the road is being driven by someone already awake, where as a car "popping" out of a hidden driveway has a sleepy driver at the wheel doing 5mph - I know which one I see as the greatest threat.

Would welcome others view of riding against the verge?

 

[davnjud]

thought a picture might help. pls note that this a very sharp left hander on a narrow road with no forward visibilty before you are in the bend. for more open or less severe bends the conventional road line is what i would be doing....

 

[Giles]

Ummmmm, errrr, well, errrrr.... !!

No black and whites!!

The last page or two of this thread has sort of thrashed around the ideas of always being flexible versus the idea that there are a few by and larges and general rules of thumb.

Mike was making the point that everything you come across should be judged there and then and not pre-planned. And he's not wrong. My point of little rules of thumb here and there, is that experience shows us that like a game of chess, there are one or two set moves and generalisations on the road, that crop up time and time again. So a good example is an advanced warning 'double bend' sign. Yes, read the road, Yes judge it as you see it and don't pre-plan it, but 'by and large' experience teaches us that if you see a double bend sign, it's the second bend that will nearly always get you into trouble. It's things like where I personally don't have a problem with riding on your experience and second guessing a few things. Ummmmm, second guessing isn't right. I don't like that. But it's that experience of pre-empting something, like the brow of a hill example. Little chess moves have their place

However ..... (hurrah!)

I don't really buy tall hedge, sharp corner, alter my 'line with wider radius' as you've written. I am not pipe and slippers. I promise you !!!!! I do not read roadcraft with my bed time Horlicks and I am part of the modern, new generation of poacher turned gamekeeper () but, (big but!), I say if you're altering your line into a blind corner to make a wider radius (and in effect apexing it) then you're sacrificing safety and view for speed. Remember, safety, system, smoothness speed.

Jim is spot on. The very real danger of coming in too early, especially on something blind, is firstly that you'll loose your taking and giving of vision, and secondly, as he quite rightly says, that sort of line will spit you out onto the offside if you go in a tad too quick.

And that's a very poignant point. Soooooo many bike accidents are badly assessed bends, it's easy to look at a left hander, shy away from a wider approach because of the scary oncoming traffic, cut in early because it feels safer and is away from the other side of the road, and the paradox, the irony of it all, is that, that line, will push you into oncoming on your exit, and if it's blind, it's easier to misjudge your entry speed and to fall into exactly that trap. In too quick, feck i'm running wide on my exit, oncoming car .....

Go slower in, be on the right line (not hanging yourself out for a head on, but not taking an early apex..) get your view, and then pin it on the way out ....

In like a lamb, out like a Lion (on acid..)

 

[davnjud]

thanks for the analysis. yeah i know we shouldn't look for magic formula but it's interesting to try and consider the variables in different situations - I reckon we're all canny enough to see it for what it is and keep a flexible approach to dynamic road situations. I have tried it both ways and can't help but feel safer/ with a greater margin of control with the apex approach for his very specific left hander - maybe only one in 50.
because its so blind and tight entry speed is naturally fairly slow so running wide has never been a problem. also being a wider arc its seems easier to tighten when necessary. I take your point about not putting speed before view but what I think I am doing is anticipating a vehicle I can't see. no vehicle - no problem. vehicle there - seems more of a problem on an outside line particularly because most oncoming will tend to cut the corner on bends of this type. It's so tight that even on the outside line you see it late and the benefit of an earlier view is cancelled out by being on a line that immediately needs changing closer to the vehicle than with the apexed line. this is fairly analagous to the crested left hander.

lots of food for thought and ideas to practise. I'll try to get some feedback on a specific bend like this on a future rideout from some of the more experienced bikers.possibly even some photos. great discusiion as usual

 

[Giles]

what I think I am doing is anticipating a vehicle I can't see.

That's good!! As Micky says 'What might hurt me here....'

 

[Giles]

This is a great thread, really like the examples, pictures etc.

I'm not an advanced rider, riding for 15 years and like to think I have fairly good road sense, but always keen to learn.

My only observation / scare on here is how much time spent tight onto left side of carriageway when out of town.

Both in car and bike I am maybe fortunate of having minimal experience of having "near miss head on's", and I do appreciate the risk of oncomming traffic,

However - I have had many many many people / wildlife / vehicles appear from country hedges / hidden tracks / driveways to houses and watching Giles's video I am almost watching through my hands on some of the footage and (what if something comes out the hedge etc).

I learn't car position on lanes / out of town to be out where safe so that when a 'surprise' appears out the hedge you have at least some time. I guess I ride the bike similarly and am questioning if I am wrong?

To me tucked in on LHS for RH bend - yep no problem, but this thread is making we question if I should be spending more time in tight to verge? which is completely what I don't do as in my assessment of risk - an oncomming vehicle on the otherside of the road is being driven by someone already awake, where as a car "popping" out of a hidden driveway has a sleepy driver at the wheel doing 5mph - I know which one I see as the greatest threat.

Would welcome others view of riding against the verge?

I guess some of the positioning can seem pretty extreme at times. Yes I do use the whole road and I do tuck it tight in on the nearside. I remember when I first started playing with all this in the 80's, scratching my head and thinking what's the point? why position so extremely? But here I am, many years later, more than happy to drag a pannier in the nearside hedge!

If there's no threat on the nearside, and being there gives you an advantage, use it! But all the 'extreme' positioning, does need to be justifiable.

In the IAM thread, there was chit chat about styles, and about taking bit's of this person and bits of somebody else that you like. Two of my colleagues have just retired, they both used to be instructors and were both brilliant motorcyclists, but (very subtly) different. One example of their differences, is that one of them would ride inches from the grass verge, and the other used to suck his teeth about this and say, 'Nah, we don't ride in the gutter..'!

I do ride in the guter... sometimes. But sometimes I'll deliberately come away from the very extreme nearside lines because of some of the very things you mention. There are quite a few woods around where I am - Ok it would be pretty unusual, but it's not unheard of deer running out into the traffic. On those sorts of roads I want to give myself a fighting chance, so I still tuck it in for a view, but maybe not quite so extremely.

So it's back to the same old argument, and it's about constantly thinking and not habitually doing things 'because we do..'.

Is there a farm entrance on the nearside? Is it blind or can I see into it? If I can see into it and there's nothing there then there's no threat. I'll stay put. If I can't see into it, shall I slow down a tad but keep my position, or shall I give up my tight nearside line? That sort of thought process is good, but the 'I drive by habit, there is a right hand bend, I will now stick my bike in the gutter because that's where I should be..' is errrrr, not so right!!