Predictive engine management

[Sooty09]

On various test rides I often find the bikes harsh for the first few miles but get better. On my last long test ride the same occurred but the bike was just to my liking when I finished. Its got me wondering if the engine mapping adjusts to suit a riders style.
I have thought about this on my 09 GS1200, its so smooth until I run it hard IE on motorways etc where its a bit rough at first, it then settles down only to be a real pig for the first few miles of slower on/off riding.
I know some engines have this feature, how about BMW?

 

[Nutty]

As they have it on BMW cars, and have had for a few years, it wouldn't surprise me if it was on the latest bikes.

 

[Humbug]

I don't know why but this came to mind.

 

[Giles]

How about the idea that on your test rides, you are (unwittingly) learning that bikes particular throttle?

Good acceleration sense gives that Oh so sweet touch to a ride where you float into gaps past overtakes ...you arrive at the corner at exactly the right pace to pick up the gas and drive out .... you plan that over take with the vehicle infront (after the oncoming car) and arrive behind him just at the right time ....

It's all acceleration sense. Ease and Squeeze. And on a strange demo bike, it might take forty minutes or so to dial into that

That's why the bike feels good just as you're bringing it back .... (you've learned it ..).

 

[Nutty]

How about the idea that on your test rides, you are (unwittingly) learning that bikes particular throttle?

Good acceleration sense gives that Oh so sweet touch to a ride where you float into gaps past overtakes ...you arrive at the corner at exactly the right pace to pick up the gas and drive out .... you plan that over take with the vehicle infront (after the oncoming car) and arrive behind him just at the right time ....

It's all acceleration sense. Ease and Squeeze. And on a strange demo bike, it might take forty minutes or so to dial into that

That's why the bike feels good just as you're bringing it back .... (you've learned it ..).

Could well be. But the computer wizardry in modern BMW cars will adjust the car to your driving style (it'll hold the car in gear longer if you have been accelerating hard, and giving it some wellie), so I'm sure it is possible to have the same feature on a modern BMW bike.

BUT, if the bikes did have this, I'm sure that BMW would add it as a feature if the bike, so your theory is probably right.

 

[Wapping]

Could well be. But the computer wizardry in modern BMW cars will adjust the car to your driving style (it'll hold the car in gear longer if you have been accelerating hard, and giving it some wellie), so I'm sure it is possible to have the same feature on a modern BMW bike.

That's an automatic and probably one with twin sports and ECO drive options. As far as I can tell, the 1200 WC has none of these awesome luxuries.

The bikes don't learn feck all. Bod gets used to riding it, whether in bimble or thrashing the nuts off it, mate, mode.

 

[Schtum]

That's an automatic and probably one with twin sports and ECO drive options. As far as I can tell, the 1200 WC has none of these awesome luxuries.

The bikes don't learn feck all. Bod gets used to riding it, whether in bimble or thrashing the nuts off it, mate, mode.

Actually, old chap, as I understand it, even the BMS-K in the previous R1200GS had an adaptive fuelling strategy.

It's not much trumpeted but more common than you might think in the automotive industry. I recently had my Golf remapped and it was a bit lumpy to start with but the guy who did it said that the Siemens ECU in mine would calibrate itself to my driving style and matters would improve. Lo and behold, he was correct.

However, I don't think the differences would continue to be noticeable from the beginning to the end of a ride. They should be cumulative and the only way for the ECU to forget them would be to disconnect the battery for a while.

 

[Wapping]

So, are you and Nutty saying that the 1200 GS WC has an ECU that learns Joe Soap's riding style?

For instance, if the bike is owned by Simon Snail who uses his bike for bimbling for two hours a month and the weekly run to Lidl for the vegetables, it will learn that it only ever sips fuel, never revving anywhere near the red line?

Simon Snail then trades up to the 1250 WC TB, selling his bike to Roger Rocket, who always rags the nuts off his steed mate, right from the get-go. The bike will of course not know its been sold, so will be expecting a gentle morning out, not hurtling from A to C via B.

Will Roger be back, banging on a Simon Snail's shell, outraged that the bike's engine is the biggest pile of shite he's sat on since he last dropped the kids off at school after his usual three curries and twenty pints of Old Roger on Saturday night? Will he be calmed when Simon Snail tells him that the bike will learn over the next three months that it's time to get its act together and will work out that Roger is the GS world's equivalent of a GP star?

Or will Roger be stood ranting at his local dealer-stealer that he wants the ECU re-flashed pronto or he'll be suing under the Sale of Poo Act as the bike is clearly not fit for purpose?

I do hope so, because UKGSer's legal, technical and imaginative teams are going to be busier than usual.

 

[Nutty]

So, are you and Nutty saying that the 1200 GS WC has an ECU that learns Joe Soap's riding style?

For instance, if the bike is owned by Simon Snail who uses his bike for bimbling for two hours a month and the weekly run to Lidl for the vegetables, it will learn that it only ever sips fuel, never revving anywhere near the red line?

Simon Snail then trades up to the 1250 WC TB, selling his bike to Roger Rocket, who always rags the nuts off his steed mate, right from the get-go. The bike will of course not know its been sold, so will be expecting a gentle morning out, not hurtling from A to C via B.

Will Roger be back, banging on a Simon Snail's shell, outraged that the bike's engine is the biggest pile of shite he's sat on since he last dropped the kids off at school after his usual three curries and twenty pints of Old Roger on Saturday night? Will he be calmed when Simon Snail tells him that the bike will learn over the next three months that it's time to get its act together and will work out that Roger is the GS world's equivalent of a GP star?

Or will Roger be stood ranting at his local dealer-stealer that he wants the ECU re-flashed pronto or he'll be suing under the Sale of Poo Act as the bike is clearly not fit for purpose?

I do hope so, because UKGSer's legal, technical and imaginative teams are going to be busier than usual.

I don't know for sure if the bike has an intelligent ECU that learns your riding style; all I'm saying is that it's not beyond the realms of possibility, as the technology has been in cars for a few years. It'd be an interesting question to pose to your dealer, or a bod at BMW.

Now, what is this 1250WC TB you speak of? Do I have to start saving up again?

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

Have we had 'intelligent ECU' in cars, who says?

Show me the details, because I think Giles is right

 

[Nutty]

Have we had 'intelligent ECU' in cars, who says?

Show me the details, because I think Giles is right

I had a new Audi A4 2.6 automatic in 1995, and that had it. The A6 I got a couple of years later also had it, as have all of the BMW's I've had since. My current M3 (with the DCT gearbox) has it, although you can also customise it more in the M. I'm sure the bumph is on their websites somewhere, I'll try and find it at some point.

 

[Wapping]

I fear that bods might be confusing 'intelligent' fuelling (where the ECU gubbinry continuously strives to delivers the correct amount of fuel relative to throttle position, wheel speed, ambient air and engine temperatures, air pressure and, for all I know or care, the time of day or the rider's shoe size) with 'intelligent learning' the ability to take in, retain and then re-employ information.

But there again, they are fiendishly clever the Hun. Though it's surprising it's not called the 1200 GS WC SB, for 'super brain'. Nutty can add it to his list of questions of the dealer, when he drops in to slap down a fat deposit on the 1250 he's read about.

MY 135 M has the same or similar automatic gearbox as Nutty's awesome beast. Yes, you can manually reconfigure or override some of the vehicle's characteristics when in different modes, up to and including that the car will hold say 6th gear (out of the eight) without ever changing up, despite it bouncing off the rev-limiter, when in Sport or 'M' mode.

 

[Myke Rocks]

All modern petrol ECUs are intelligent - to a point.

When any modern petrol ECU is in use, it has a closed loop feedback between the knock sensors and the ignition. Therefore, it advances the igintion until the engine "knocks", and then backs it off a little. It repeats this each time the engine is started. If you have ever used a 1200 in heavy slow moving traffic and the you hear engine knocking a little, you will notice the subsequent loss of power and performance until ignition is cycled off and on again. It is probable that there is a degree of memorisation built into the ECU to hold at least some of the previous settings.
This anti-knock feature alone would probably account for most of the performance change already described by others in this thread.
Myke

 

[needlongerlegs]

Later Triumphs do, if you want to reset one to factory rather than "learnt" mode you can archive this by letting the bike idle for 14 minutes without touching any controls. I've done it and it works quite noticeably on a Tiga8 shame there's not a CTL,alt,del button.

 

[cookie]

I think Giles is right

i do too.

 

[Old Den]

I think you will find that the LC does have a `Self learning ECU`.
You can actually play with it by riding different ways. Try riding with a slow acting half throttle and the fuelling and ignition curves will adapt to that style. If you then immediately give it some `progressive` full throttle riding it will not feel quite as sharp until it has matched speed of throttle opening and fuel needed . After a little time it will sort itself and match to that style of riding.
Most modern cars do this as it keeps performance at an optimum along with fuel emissions which are required by law to save the planet.
So yes if you jumped off one `LC` that had be thrashed and on to one ridden in the city there is a possibility it would `feel` slightly different until the ECU had studied all the inputs and adjusted accordingly.

My 2p worth.....Hope it helps

 

[Shep]

Perhaps the OP is describing 'Heat Sink'

I reckon It takes approximately 30 miles to best part warm up a GS but perhaps up to 100 miles to get everything right up to temp (that includes damper fluid and all oils, frame etc etc)

Whilst i think Giles is right to some extent, i still think vehicles take a while to 'smooth out' on a trip.

 

[Schtum]

There have been adaptive ECUs on cars since....oh since God was a boy. Failing that, since...the first I remember was Mitsubishi's much vaunted "fuzzy logic" system on the Galant. So, if you want your LC / WC or WeverTF the current nomenclature is (mine's a white one...) to be the sharpest it can be, thrash the tits off it at every possible opportunity. Capiche...?

 

[Giles]

I always think it's engineering genius, to create soul in metal and plastic. But they do it

Like errrrr, ummmmmm, a horse?? Some are bred to race and some are bred to hack with small children sat aboard.

So I'm not going to write that a 1098 won't bimble, cos it will. Somebody somewhere commutes on one and will tell us all that it does it admirably. But it starts working when you push it. And some bikes want to push on...

I don't want to open the whole can of worms that is the gear box, or maybe the 'GS Character' that is apparently lost (and it probably is in this bike .. ), but to me this is a bike that has been engineered to get on with it. And whilst it will bimble quite happily, if I sort of somewhat blandly ride it in a non descript, neither here nor there way, then ... mneh ... it's alright ... take it or leave it ...

But if I crack on and thrash the tits of it as Pants Boy suggests, then yeah ... it comes alive. The active suspension starts coming into its own, the motor starts spinning nicely, the gear box becomes a delight .....

That's what this bike is about I feel. In the planning and development process were the BM spys checking out Multistradas, KTM1190's in the production pipeline? I reckon so, and now we have BM's offering to the table of attitude and new kid on the block.

And yeah .... if you want to get the best out of it .... push it on a bit! It's engineered to behave at its best like that ....

 

[tanneman]

To have an intelligent engine management system that adapts it maps to the driving style detected, is useless without combining it with a suitable automatic gearbox. Then the management of the whole drive train can be optimised to give the best performance for a particular driving style be it sporty or economy.

Remember as the engine warms up the parameters in the mapping changes, same with the new dynamic suspension. The fluid flows more easily therefore the reaction time /calculation must be adjusted. The HP2 Sport won't let you rev the tits off it before the engine has reached optimal temperature, as an example.

I think Giles is right, but as we travel on our bike apart from adjusting the ignition it also has to take into account the ambient temp, atmospheric pressure (which can be calculated by the bike but not necessary as it already has sensors to tell it what is going on the fuel air mixture after combustion), fuel quality and then the safety aids like ASC. Until bikes drives themselves we select the gear and speed, not the throttle anymore.