R1100S Sterter Motor Niggle

[GORILA]

Right, I am back to this. No progress made and I would welcome any advise.

Just to recap, I removed the gearbox with the final drive to carry out maintenance on the splines. When I put everything back together, I found the bike would start only when (whilst in neutral gear) I pulled the clutch lever in. Otherwise the bike worked fine during a couple of test runs.
The neutral light (green light on the display) doesn't come on either. After further fiddling, now the starter motor does not fire up/ turn over.
I have had the starter motor examined by a local engineer and it is working ok.
I suspect my fault may be with the side stand switch.

Can anyone tell me if a faulty side stand switch would stop the neutral light coming on? Or should I look at anything else. Starter relay perhaps?

Plug connectors and wiring appear ok...

 

[Bikermike1411]

What about the switch that detects if it's on first gear? If you've had the gearbox off has it been disconnected or disturbed so the bike thinks it's in first? It'll always start with the clutch in if its in gear.

As for the starter, have you flattened the battery trying to start it, or checked if it's duff or not? They can just go out like a light switch....

Hope you sort it bud!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ian J Hartley]

Remove the starter relay out of the fuse box (big yellow one).

Check at the relay base.

1. you have a good Earth on the 86a when you operate the gear lever to get neutral.
2. you have a good earth on 86 when you operate the clutch lever.
3. you have positive voltage on 85 when the ignition is ON, the side stand is up and you press the start button. (Make sure kill switch is in run position)

Check you have continuity between the relay base 87 and the small black lead that attaches to the starter motor.

 

[GORILA]

Bikermike, thanks for answering. I don't think I disturbed the gear position switch or the neutral switch at the back of the gearbox. I took the gearbox and final drive out in one so didn't unplug the switches from the gearbox.
My question is whether the neutral light is off when the side stand is extended. Does the side stand switch stop the starter from operating. If so perhaps I further disturbed it whilst moving it in and out and now it's failed completely...or could a fault in the starter relay be the culprit?
If not what else?

 

[Galactic Greyhound]

Right, I am back to this. No progress made and I would welcome any advise.

Just to recap, I removed the gearbox with the final drive to carry out maintenance on the splines. When I put everything back together, I found the bike would start only when (whilst in neutral gear) I pulled the clutch lever in. Otherwise the bike worked fine during a couple of test runs.
The neutral light (green light on the display) doesn't come on either. After further fiddling, now the starter motor does not fire up/ turn over.
I have had the starter motor examined by a local engineer and it is working ok.
I suspect my fault may be with the side stand switch.

Can anyone tell me if a faulty side stand switch would stop the neutral light coming on? Or should I look at anything else. Starter relay perhaps?

Plug connectors and wiring appear ok...

Yes - a faulty Sidestand, Kill Switch or Starter Button will stop the +12v from the Ignition Switch 'On' position from reaching one side of the Starter Relay coil when the Starter Button is pressed.

The other side of the Starter Relay coil is looking for an earth either from the Neutral Switch (when in Neutral) OR the Clutch Switch (when the Clutch Lever is operated.

It looks like you have lost the +12v to the Starter Relay coil so likely the Sidestand or Kill Switch at fault.

You can EMERGENCY crank the engine by TAPPING a wire from +12v to the Starter Solenoid terminal 50 - this is the terminal with a thin Black wire with a female spade connector connected to the Solenoid male blade connector at the back of the Starter Motor.

The large TOP nut on the Starter Motor is +12v from the Battery and so you can TAP a wire from this nut to the Solenoid terminal 50 (thin Black wire connected to this) and the Solenoid should operate and cause the Starter Motor to crank the engine.
Note it won't fire up if the Sidestand or Kill Switch is faulty as there will then be no +12v connected to the Motronic Relay.

See my earlier post about where the Sidestand and Neutral Switch connectors are located.
You can disconnect and bypass these switches (on the main loom side of the connectors) with a short wire to see which is faulty - likely the Sidestand Switch if the Clutch Switch has now stopped working.

The Neutral Light operates to earth via the Neutral Switch. The light is fed +12v via a fuse.

Email me if you want a diagram of the Starter Circuit as I seem unable to post it here (I'm not a full member).

 

[Galactic Greyhound]

OK - further to my last post which is INCORRECT re the Sidestand Switch operation for the R1100S after looking at the R1100S Wiring Diagrams - sorry about that!

The R1100S Starting Circuit is more like the R1150RT and NOT the R1100RT as I originally thought. There is a difference between the R1150RT and the R1100S Starting Circuit wiring though.

The R1100S engine can be run with the Sidestand UP or DOWN subject to the following conditions:

a. Sidestand DOWN: The gearbox must be in Neutral so that BOTH the Starter and Motronic Relays can operate via the Neutral Switch to earth.

Notes:
If the Neutral Switch is faulty, the Motronic Relay cannot operate and the engine will therefore not fire up.
If the Neutral Switch is faulty, the Neutral Light will NOT operate.
If the Neutral Switch is faulty, the Starter Relay will NOT operate UNLESS the Clutch Lever is pulled to operate the Starter Relay via the Clutch Switch.


b. Sidestand UP: The Motronic Relay operates via the Sidestand Switch direct to earth. The Starter Relay operates via the Neutral Switch to earth OR via the Clutch Switch.

Notes:
If the Neutral Switch is faulty, the Motronic Relay is NOT affected and will operate at Ignition On but the Starter Relay will NOT operate unless the Clutch Lever is pulled in to operate the Starter Relay via Clutch Switch.
If the Neutral Switch is faulty, the Neutral Light will NOT operate.

The Neutral Light is fed +12v via Fuse #1 - check that this fuse is OK. It should have +12v on BOTH sides of it when in position.

The +12v power for BOTH the Starter and the Motronic Relays is fed from the Ignition Switch 'On' via the KILL Switch and Starter Button to the Starter Relay and via the KILL Switch direct to the Motronic Relay.

If you cannot hear/feel the Motronic Relay operating or the Fuel Pump priming for 2 secs when you switch the Ignition 'On', or the Starter Relay operating when you press the Starter button, then suspect the Kill Switch is not passing +12v to operate these relays.

The Ignition 'On' passes +12v on a Green wire to the Kill Switch (in) and comes out of the Kill Switch on a Green/Red wire to the relays.

 

[Bikermike1411]

What Greyhound said!

Has anyone actually said 'check you haven't flicked the kills witch to 'off'' yet? It's easy to ignore.....


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[Galactic Greyhound]

See the following link, my post dated "Sat Jul 16 2016, 3:25pm" for the R1150RT Starter Circuit wiring diagram which is very similar to your R1100S.
This will let you see what is going on with the Kill and Sidestand Switches (note the Fuse numbers/wire colours may differ on your R1100S).
Note that you can do a lot of testing on the relay sockets themselves:

http://www.bmbikes.org.uk/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=23647&p=156920&hilit

 

[GORILA]

Thank you for your time with this Greyhound.
My bike is in fact an R1100GS; my clumsy fingers slipped whilst typing my first post on this.

Unfortunately this is all beyond my current electrical ability. I need to read your advise on this a few more times to digest it.
I am tempted to just get a replacement switch though. The only thing I did, I can think of, between the starter working and then not, was to extend the side stand a few times.

Would a faulty side stand switch affect the neutral light though?
(My gear indicator in the RID works ok, so I believe the gearbox switches to be ok...)

 

[Ian J Hartley]

Would a faulty side stand switch affect the neutral light though?

No

(My gear indicator in the RID works ok, so I believe the gearbox switches to be ok...)

Not on the R1100GS. There are two seperate switches on the back of the gearbox. One for the gear selection and another just for the Neutral light/primary starter circuit.

 

[Galactic Greyhound]

Thank you for your time with this Greyhound.
My bike is in fact an R1100GS; my clumsy fingers slipped whilst typing my first post on this.

Unfortunately this is all beyond my current electrical ability. I need to read your advise on this a few more times to digest it.
I am tempted to just get a replacement switch though. The only thing I did, I can think of, between the starter working and then not, was to extend the side stand a few times.

Would a faulty side stand switch affect the neutral light though?
(My gear indicator in the RID works ok, so I believe the gearbox switches to be ok...)

On the R1100GS, the Sidestand Switch appears to be like on the R1100RT and NOT like the R1100S!
I need to check this out and will come back about this!

What year is your R1100GS?

Do NOT go off willy-nilly and buy replacement parts you may not need! You MUST test to find the problem.
If this level of testing is too difficult for you then simple instructions can be given on what to do on a test by test basis.

If you want to go ahead with this then you require the following:

1. A Test Lamp. This is a 12v 12W bulb in a holder with the two insulated leads each about 1 metre long and terminated in croc clips. A small screwdriver will be clipped to one lead to act as a probe. The other lead will be clipped to the Battery + or the - terminal.

Using the Test Lamp:
1. Connect the test lamp across the battery terminals - the Test Lamp should light which proves that the battery is charged and the lamp is working.

2. To test for +12v (Live) - disconnect the Test Lamp lead from the battery +12v (positive live) terminal, the Test Lamp will go out - it will light up again when you tap that lead onto a point which
is at +12v (Live).

3. To test for -12v (Earth/Ground) - disconnect the Test Lamp lead from the battery -12v (negative earth/ground) terminal, the Test Lamp will go out - it will light up again when you tap that lead
onto a point which is at -12v (Earth/Ground).

When you have got the above sorted out we can proceed with testing once I have determined what Starting Circuit diagram your R1100GS uses!

 

[Ian J Hartley]

Pull the starter relay from the fuse box and jumper across the two contacts as shown in the picture.

Turn on the ignition. When you pull in the clutch lever you should get the neutral light to illuminate regardless of whether the bike is in gear or not. Assuming that the neutral light filament is OK.

If this works, then it points to the neutral switch or its wiring being faulty.

 

[Galactic Greyhound]

OK - Your R1100GS uses the same Starter Circuit as the R1100RT.

The Sidestand Switch IS in series with the Starter Relay coil as is the Kill Switch and the Starter Button. This means that the Sidestand Switch CAN affect the operation of the Starter Relay.

You need to have the R1100RT Starter Circuit diagram to use - I can't seem to post the .jpg file direct here but it is available on my home forum on the following link, my post:
http://www.bmbikes.org.uk/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=24221&p=161680&hilit

Go to the above link and print out the "R1100RT Starting Circuit" diagram.

Let us know when you have done this and made up the Test Lamp ( any 12v bulb of wattage around 10 - 22 Watts will do for this).

Happy for anyone else to chip in if they are following this! I propose to start the testing on the Starter Relay SOCKET as Ian J Hartley has suggested.

LATER EDIT: Ian, I can't see the picture in your last post - is it me or a glitch?

 

[Ian J Hartley]

LATER EDIT: Ian, I can't see the picture in your last post - is it me or a glitch?

I don't know! The picture shows the starter relay base with a jumper wire going between pins 86 and 86a. This will allow the earth from the clutch switch to pass over the relay base to the neutral circuit and provide an earth for the neutral light.

Ian

 

[Ian J Hartley]

In post 21 the OP states that he cannot get the starter to work at all.

Does this include when using the clutch switch? If this is so then you need to check that the small black wire that connects to the starter motor solenoid is connected correctly.

Ian

 

[Galactic Greyhound]

Hi Ian,

Got that picture after doing a 'refresh' - don't know how I got your post and not the picture! My hard drive is going nuts at the moment - must be a Windows 10 update coming in!

Yes - agree with the test - my 'R1100RT Starter Circuit' diagram shows your '86a' terminal as '86b' - no big deal though and the linking should work as you describe - lets see what result Gorila gets!

 

[Galactic Greyhound]

In post 21 the OP states that he cannot get the starter to work at all.

Does this include when using the clutch switch? If this is so then you need to check that the small black wire that connects to the starter motor solenoid is connected correctly.

Ian

I suggested some posts back that Gorila applies +12v to the Starter Motor SOLENOID terminal 50 (thin Black lead with female blade connector) to see if the Starter Motor will operate - this bypasses all of the Starting Circuit.

Don't know if he has done this.

 

[GORILA]

Right Gents, thank you for your pointers. I run a test lead across the starter motor terminals and the led lights up. It does this whether ignition is on or off and is unaffected by the side stand. So I guess this confirms all is good with the starter motor.

I then run the test lead across the side stand switch terminals (at the female connector on the switch side) and I get nothing. On the frame side (male) of the connector, I get continuity with the test lead, i.e. the led lights up - this with the ignition on.
I presume this means there is a fault with the side stand switch?

I also run a jumper wire across the relay terminals, but the idle light doesn't come on. I suspect this is a separate fault. Am I on the right track, is there anything else I should test?

Regards...

 

[GORILA]

...meant that the neutral light doesn't come on...

 

[Ian J Hartley]

It sounds as if things are getting worse with your electrics. You have gone from being able to start the bike by holding in the clutch lever to nothing.

You can bypass the side stand switch by jumping across at the frame connector. It's a recognised "get me home". It just means that you need to be aware that you can ride off with the side stand down.

But it looks like you have an earth fault as well. You appear to have lost both the earth for the neutral switch and the clutch switch. Without either of these the starter relay will not operate.

It might be that both the clutch switch and the neutral switches have failed. In which case to confirm this you will need to track the cable from the switches to where they connect to the frame harness. Disconnect the connectors and carry out a continuity checks. If your lucky, it's the switches. If not then you have an earth wire broken somewhere inside the wiring harness, which will require you unwrapping the harness from the connectors back to the point of the break.

Ian