R1150GSA turns over but won't start... 3 days before MOT

BroX

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After my bike has been standing still for a bit over a year (never a good thing, but being busy with a newborn baby girl is a valid excuse :blagblah), it first wouldn't start due to a flat and broken battery, so I replaced it.

Then it turned over ok but didn't start. Fuel cables are seated properly. I checked the spark plugs, they looked beautiful but on the left hand side there was no spark. Switching the ignition coils showed that the left coil had given up, so I ordered two new ignition coils. Today I replaced the old ones, and to my surprise/disappointment, the bike still wouldn't start.

I can hear the fuel pump priming when I turn the ignition. I took out the fuel injectors, and voila, there was no gasoline coming out on either side when I tried to start the bike. I assume this is not good? The tank is about half full (I should have filled it up but I never planned to stall it for so long).

Does this mean that the fuel filter is completely blocked?? Or are there other things I can check first?

I have also attached the bike to a GS-911 diagnostic tool, and there were no faults reported.

All suggestions very welcome, because I have to get it to the bi-annual checkup (MOT) by the end of the month! :blast

Cheers, Leon.

Edit: it's a '05 GSA twin spark.
 
May not be fuel filter.

The absence of fuel if i recall is, is oddly normal! if i recall.

I'm racking the grey cells to recall what the cause is (was), but the closest i can get to is:-

you need to look at the basics

SSBB

Suck - Have you got air entering the combustion chambers - Air filter / inlet not obstructed
Squeeze - Have you got compression in both cylinders
Bang - Have you got spark & fuel (in your case No)
Blow - Have you got an exhaust cycle ( No, because bang is not occurring)

Now this is where it gets techhy, and is a basic overview,
Now doubt someone more tech than me, will point out my errors

On turning the ignition circuit on, a number of "flags", for want of a better word occur

Coils energise, and return an ok flag to the ECU
Fuel pump primes, and returns an ok flag also
The ecu is then waiting for other flags to report before making its next steps, MAF or MAP Cam Crank Lambda etc
On pressing the starter the engine turns, and values from the cam sensor, crank sensor, Maf or Map (Mass airflow or Manifold pressure),
fuel injectors, lambda sensor are sent to the ecu.

Its the absence of one of these values that is the issue if i recall, basically the ecu isn't getting a trigger to keep open the fuel injectors,
Its a bit chicken and egg, you need fuel to complete the cycle, but the ECU wont trigger the injectors / pump if the flag is missing.
its saves just pumping raw fuel into the combustion chambers and through to the cat.

If everything was ok, the bike would start, the lambda sensor would report a value, the ecu would register this value and look at its ecu MAP, and then the ecu would adjust the mixture etc

Does that make sense?

Is your battery fully charged?, a low battery can often give problems

And put some fresh fuel in, sounds odd, but your petrol may have gone off, and drop some redex or similar in your

tank , the fuel evaporating may have gummed up your injectors, so they don't open when told to do so by the ecu.

If the ecu doesn't see the open flag from the injectors, it wont keep the fuel pump running etc

I'll seem to recall this or similar has been discussed elsewhere, i'll go hunting



Mart
 
After my bike has been standing still for a bit over a year (never a good thing, but being busy with a newborn baby girl is a valid excuse :blagblah), it first wouldn't start due to a flat and broken battery, so I replaced it.

Then it turned over ok but didn't start. Fuel cables are seated properly. I checked the spark plugs, they looked beautiful but on the left hand side there was no spark. Switching the ignition coils showed that the left coil had given up, so I ordered two new ignition coils. Today I replaced the old ones, and to my surprise/disappointment, the bike still wouldn't start.

I can hear the fuel pump priming when I turn the ignition. I took out the fuel injectors, and voila, there was no gasoline coming out on either side when I tried to start the bike. I assume this is not good? The tank is about half full (I should have filled it up but I never planned to stall it for so long).

Does this mean that the fuel filter is completely blocked?? Or are there other things I can check first?

I have also attached the bike to a GS-911 diagnostic tool, and there were no faults reported.

All suggestions very welcome, because I have to get it to the bi-annual checkup (MOT) by the end of the month! :blast

Cheers, Leon.

Edit: it's a '05 GSA twin spark.

Leon, the easiest way to check the fuel system is to open the return QD, the upper one of the pair near the right TB. Then push in the check valve on the left half (male) and turn on the key. You should get a strong flow of fuel for the two seconds while the pump runs at key on. Try this test and let us know.
 
Thanks for your extensive checklist Mart. I never got to it because I went for Roger's easy suggestion first.

Hi Roger,

THANKS! We got a winner! Don't really know how it happened though. First try, no fuel came out of the disconnected return hose. I also checked the other QD, in case I mistook the hose but nothing. To be sure, I tried the upper QD again, and got sprayed with gasoline! Lovely :beerjug: So maybe the QD had been clogged/stuck, or not seated properly after I reconnected it when replacing the battery :nenau

I guess the failed ignition coil was just a coincidence? Anyway, it feels good that both are now replaced with the upgraded version.

Cheers, Leon.
 
Hi Leon,

See the following procedure. This is for an R1100RT but your R1150GSA is similar except for maybe being twin spark.

Pay attention to the Fuel Return Flow check.
The ECU switches on the Fuel Pump for 2 secs at Ignition On and then waits for the Fuelling pulses from the HES when cranking over before re-operating the Fuel Pump Relay.

Here is the procedure (the diagrams may not show but you can see them here http://www.bmbikes.org.uk/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=21616):

R1100RT Not Starting.doc ​Issue: 09/05/2015
C. Mungall
R1100RT – NOT STARTING
by
Ced [Galactic Greyhound]


1. ENGINE WILL NOT CRANK OVER:

Make sure that the bike is in ‘Neutral’ and on the main stand!

Battery Check: Switch on the Ignition and the Headlight Main Beam. Check that the Headlight remains illuminated for at least one minute without dimming. If the headlight does not operate or
dims then there is a battery problem.


RID Check: When the ignition is switched ‘On’ (bike not started), check that the Rider Information Display (RID) is active i.e. lit up and showing the Fuel Level and Gear Indicator.

If the RID is NOT active, check that the Ignition is ‘ON’, the ‘Kill Switch’ is not operated and the Sidestand is ‘UP’.


Starter Relay Check:
Operate the ‘Start’ button and listen/feel for the Starter Relay activating (Fusebox relay #3, Yellow, front row left).

If the Starter Relay is NOT active, check that the ‘Neutral’ light is illuminated. If the ‘Neutral’ light is NOT illuminated, check that the gearbox is in ‘Neutral’.

If the ‘Neutral’ light will not illuminate with the gearbox in ‘Neutral’, pull in the Clutch lever and operate the ‘Start’ button. If the engine cranks over, the ‘Neutral’ switch is faulty.

Remove the relay and, on the relay socket base, jumper terminal 87 (solenoid) to terminal 30 (12v+) with the Ignition ‘ON’. The Starter Motor should crank over the engine when the connection is made. If not, there is a problem with the Starter Motor Solenoid or Starter.

On the relay socket base, connect a Voltmeter (+) or Test Lamp between the Starter Relay terminal 85 (relay coil) and earth.
Switch the Ignition ‘ON’.
When the Start Button is pressed, +12v should be present on the relay socket terminal 85.

If +12v is present as above, then the Starter Relay would appear to be faulty.


Starter Motor/Solenoid Check:
Remove the left hand fairing side. Make up a short length (say 12 inches) of 15A insulated test wire ideally with a 15A fuse in the middle for safety.

Disconnect the smaller wire going to the starter motor/solenoid terminal 50. Using the fused insulated test wire, connect across the starter motor/solenoid terminals 50 and 30 (the heavy duty connection to the battery 12v+ terminal). This will connect the battery 12v+ starter motor feed to the starter solenoid to simulate the 12v+ coming from the starter relay. The solenoid should engage and the starter motor should run and turn over the engine. If it doesn't the problem lies in the starter motor/solenoid, or its connections.


Battery/Earth Connections Check:
If the Solenoid operates but the Starter Motor will not crank the engine, check the Battery terminal connections and Starter Motor connections are clean and sound.

Check the Main Earth connection at the engine/gearbox is clean and sound. This is not easy to access as it is below the Battery Tray on the LH side and barely visible.
The Main Earth status can however be easily checked electrically by connecting a voltmeter POSITIVE lead to a good, cleaned engine block connection and the NEGATIVE lead to the battery negative terminal.
Operate the Starter Motor and the voltage should not read more than 0.5v if the Main Earth connection is good. Otherwise, disconnect the Main Earth, clean both the lead
and its engine/gearbox connection to bright metal, Vaseline lightly and reconnect.


Battery Check:
Check if it is a battery problem by jumpering the bike battery to a known good 12v battery.

If the starter motor runs OK after jumpering, then the battery is faulty.


2. ENGINE CRANKS OVER BUT WILL NOT FIRE.

First check:
1. That the Motronic Relay operates when the Ignition is switched 'On' (check operate click by feel or listening with a screwdriver).
2. That the Throttle Body (TB) butterfly valve cable pulleys are hard against the stop screws on the TB when the Throttle and the Choke are both fully closed. If they are not, check that a Throttle or Choke cable ferrule has not been lifted out of its seat in the adjuster screws at the top of the TBs.


Ignition Trigger Unit - Hall Effect Sender (HES) Ignition Pulses Check:
Check Fuse #5 (Motronic) is not blown.

Pull off one spark plug lead and connect it to a TEST plug where the gap has been opened out to 5mm. Earth the body of the spare plug to a cylinder barrel using a short insulated lead with large alligator clips fitted at each end.

CAUTION: The electronic HT ignition system fitted generates a much higher voltage than conventional systems. It is unsafe to touch an HT lead with the hand even if the plug body is earthed.
Failure to properly earth a plug body can damage the ignition system.

With the Ignition ‘ON’, crank over the engine with the ‘Start’ button and observe the spark plug. The plug should spark regularly with a bright BLUE (high energy) spark.

If there is a weak Yellow or Red spark or no spark at all, the HT leads + Coil Secondary resistance should be measured:

Switch off the ignition and disconnect both spark plug leads.

Measure the resistance from one HT lead to the other – the resistance should be about 20.3 Kohms.

If the resistance is correct and the Ignition Coil primary winding is supplied with 12v+, the upper Hall Effect Sensor (HES) may be faulty.

Reconnect the HT leads to the normal spark plugs on the bike.


Fuel Pump and Relay Check:
When the Ignition is first switched ‘ON’, listen for the Fuel Pump activating. The Motronic ECU should operate the Fuel Pump Relay for two seconds causing the Fuel Pump to run and then stop.

When the engine is cranked over, the Motronic ECU should re-operate the Fuel Pump Relay and fire the Injectors (listen for clicks by placing a screwdriver on the Injector bodies). The Fuel Pump will continue to run for about 2 seconds after the Starter Button is released.

If the Fuel Pump does not operate, listen for the Fuel Pump Relay activating (Fusebox relay #6, Black, front row 4th from left).

If the Fuel Pump Relay activates but the Fuel Pump does not run, check that Fuse #6 (Fuel Pump) is not blown.

Remove the Fuel Pump Relay (Fusebox relay #6, Black, front row 4th from left) and, on the relay socket base, jumper terminal 3 (Fuse #6) to terminal 5 (Fuel Pump). The Fuel Pump should run continually when the connection is made. If not, there is a problem with the Fuel Pump Plate Wiring Connector or the Fuel Pump. Check that the Fuel Pump Plate Connector under the RH rear of the Fuel Tank does not have corroded pins and is properly connected. See the wiring diagram 'R1100RT Fuel Pump Circuit.jpg' for futher details on how to jumper the Fuel Pump relay socket.

If the Fuel Pump runs OK when the relay socket is jumpered but not with the relay plugged in, the Fuel Pump Relay is faulty. The relay can be replaced by the Horn relay which is of the same type.

If the Fuel Pump runs OK and the Injectors are being fired (listen on the Injector bodies for clicks) when the engine is cranked over then suspect a ruptured/disconnected fuel hose or blocked Fuel Filter.

If the Fuel Pump runs OK at Ignition On for two seconds but does NOT run when the engine is cranked over, suspect a problem with the lower Hall Effect Sensor (HES) associated with the fuelling pulses in the Ignition Trigger Unit.
Note: Ignition Trigger Unit (HES) failure usually shows as both Ignition failure (no spark) and Fuelling failure (no fuel).


Fuel Flow Check:
If the Fuel Pump runs OK for two seconds at Ignition ‘ON’, the plugs are sparking but the engine will not fire, the Fuel Return Flow needs to be checked.

Remove the right hand fairing side.

Disconnect the fuel Return hose (top hose) at the Fuel Pressure Regulator black nylon pipe (top pipe) and plug the hose tank side to prevent leakage. The rubber Return hose is the one connected to the Regulator top black nylon pipe and should be the top hose above the rubber Flow pipe.

CAUTION: Do not strain the black nylon Regulator pipes when connecting/disconnecting the rubber hoses or they may kink or crack.

Put a temporary length of 6mm ID hose onto the black nylon Regulator Return pipe sufficient to direct the fuel into a suitable container,

CAUTION: Take precautions against fuel vapour causing fire.

Remove the Fuel Pump relay (Fusebox relay #6, Black, front row 4th from left) and, on the relay socket base, jumper terminal 3 (Fuse #6) to terminal 5 (Fuel Pump). The Fuel Pump should run continually when the connection is made and fuel should be pumped freely into the container at a rate of approximately 2 litres/minute.

This will test the Fuel Pump, the Fuel Filter, and the internal fuel hosing for proper operation. It will also check that the Regulator is passing the fuel to the Return hose but NOT that the Regulator is functioning correctly as it may be stuck open.

If the fuel does not flow at the required rate then there is likely a problem with the Fuel Pump, Fuel Filter or Fuel Hosing inside the tank. Note that the internal Fuel Hosing MUST be of the higher spec submersible type and failure due to splitting is common resulting in lack of the necessary fuel pressure.

If the fuel does flow at the required rate, examine the fuel in the container after it has been standing for 15 minutes. Check that the fuel is clean, clear and that there is no water lying at the bottom of the container. Check that the fuel colour is not Yellow which can indicate stale fuel.

Empty the Return Hose container and repeat the test as per the HES check below.


HES Fuelling Pulses Check:
If the Fuel Pump Flow Check is correct, a check should be made that the lower Hall Effect Sensor (HES) is sending fuelling pulses to the Motronic unit to restart the Fuel Pump after the initial Ignition ‘ON’ two second prime.

Put a temporary length of 6mm ID hose onto the black nylon Regulator Return pipe sufficient to direct the fuel into a suitable container.

CAUTION: Take precautions against fuel vapour causing fire.

Switch the Ignition ‘ON’ and check for the initial two second fuel flow into the container.

Crank over the engine on the starter and check that the Fuel Pump restarts and that the fuel flow into the container is maintained as the engine turns over.
Allow the engine to turn over for at least 15 seconds and there should be at least 0.5 litre of fuel in the container.

CAUTION: The engine may start unexpectedly if the fault clears.

If the Fuel Pump does not restart when cranking the engine, the lower HES sensor may be faulty.
You should hear the Fuel Pump running for about 2 seconds when the Starter Button is released.


Fuel Potency Check:
It is unlikely that any fuel left for over 6 months will still be sufficiently potent to reliably start the bike.

Drain the Fuel Tank by removing the temporary plug on the Return hose (tank side) and draining off into a suitable container. This will remove most of the fuel although some will remain in the bottom of the tank.

Re-connect the fuel Return hose.

Refill the Fuel Tank using 5 litres of fresh fuel (note the colour difference with the old fuel). The Fuel Gauge should register about 2 bars.

Note that there will still be stale fuel remaining in the Fuel Pump, Fuel Filter, Fuel Hoses and Regulator. The stale fuel at the bottom of the tank will be mixed with the fresh fuel which will increase its potency.

Switch the Ignition 'On', set the Choke to the 'On' detent and crank the engine over for at least 15 seconds to purge the stale fuel from the fuel system - if the bike does not start, stop and rest the battery for 15 minutes.

After 15 minutes, crank over the engine for 5 seconds as above then switch the Ignition 'Off' if the bike has not started.

Switch the Ignition 'On' again and crank the engine over for another 5 seconds to see if the bike will fire up.


Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR) Check:
The Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR) maintains the fuel pressure on the Injector Fuel Rail at 43 psi and returns excess fuel to the Fuel Tank via the fuel Return pipe/hose.

The 'Fuel Flow Check' test above checks that the fuel is passing through the FPR and this Return flow normally occurs when the FPR pressure is at least 43 psi to open the
FPR Return valve.

However, a faulty FPR might still pass the correct fuel flow to the Return pipe/hose if the FPR valve is held open due to a fault. This will result in low pressure on the Injector Fuel Rail whichwill not allow the Injector to spray the required quantity of fuel into the Throttle Body (TB).

The correct functioning of the FPR can therefore be determined by removing a Fuel Injector from a TB and checking that the Injector is spraying.
The black nylon Injector Fuel Rail pipe need not be disconnected from the Injector when removing if care is taken not to bend or kink the pipe.



3. ENGINE FIRES BUT WILL NOT RUN.

If the bike tries to fire up, pops or backfires but will not run, remove the rubber caps from the vacuum take-offs at the bottom of the Throttle Bodies (TBs).

Inject 'Easy Start' starting Ether or 'WD40' into the vacuum take-offs and see if the bike will run for 2 or 3 seconds - leave the caps off when testing.
If it does, the problem is likely with the fuelling.
If it does not, the problem is likely with the Ignition.

Replace the rubber caps on the TBs.




Appendix - Diagrams:
R1100RT Starter Circuit.jpg
R1100RT Ignition Circuit.jpg
R1100RT Fuel Pump Circuit.jpg

Full Wiring Diagrams:
Full Wiring Diagrams for the R1100RT and the R1150RT drawn by Doug Raymond can be found at the following link.
A Wiring Diagram for the R1150 iABS (iABS-1, ABS3) system is also provided:
http://www.mac-pac.org/tech/electrical-diagrams/








Appendix Diagrams Follow:
























1

R1100RT – Not Starting.doc APPENDIX​Issue: 09/05/2015
C. Mungall









1
 
Ced - just wanted to say thanks for the very helpful post, which I have bookmarked for later troubleshooting. Dont suppose you have the document saved offline that you could send, in case of lost bookmarks/site crashes? Its worth a beer if you ever brave the Langholm commonriding ;)

Gordon
 
Hi Gordon,

Thanks for your kind words.

The procedure is available as a Word file with the diagrams embedded in this.

Not sure how to send it to you on this site but, if you email me via my home forum (I'm just a freebooter on here!) at http://www.bmbikes.org.uk/Forum/index.php I'll be happy to send you a copy.
Same forum name and email contact via 'Members' section.

Langholm is not far from me in Dumfries so a beer could be on the cards!
 
Hi Ced,

thanks for your post, I saved it for future reference!

Cheers, Leon.
 
Hi Gordon,

Thanks for your kind words.

The procedure is available as a Word file with the diagrams embedded in this.

Not sure how to send it to you on this site but, if you email me via my home forum (I'm just a freebooter on here!) at http://www.bmbikes.org.uk/Forum/index.php I'll be happy to send you a copy.
Same forum name and email contact via 'Members' section.

Langholm is not far from me in Dumfries so a beer could be on the cards!

It's not far from Me either..🙂
 


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