R1200GS Brake Failure - Scary!

[nemezis]

Instead of whinging I will be sending BMW a registered letter ...

Why did you start this thread?

I do know about the design flaw of the steel lines since at least May 2007. In November 2007 German media reported the problems with the ABS in question. April 2008 BMW started the campain (note: not a recall, authorities were not allowed to initiate a recall).

I mentioned the design flaw at ukgser several times. Was your brake failure necessary? I don't think so!

BTW: Do you know what BMW will answer you? At least the affected riders in Germany do know the answer. They do have such letters from 2007!!!

 

[BBB61]

Why did you start this thread?

WHy did you start your internet terror campaign against BMW when you have stated that there was nothing wrong with the brakes on your BMW?

I won't be holding my breath waiting for a straight answer from you.

 

[nemezis]

... internet ...

What's wrong with you little girl? It was in the TV-News, in the Newspapers, in the motorcycle-magzines, it was everywhere: Design flaw with the ABS!

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/3745580/Schwere_Unfaelle_wegen_teurem_BMW_Motorrad_ABS_Integral_ABS

 

[casperghst42]

Are you sure that the ABS on your bike will help you in a situation that you call an emergency? AFAIK all you experienced was an emergency because of your ABS brakes! I do personally rely on my own rider skills and not on a defective ABS design: Obviously some guys need ABS so bad that they do not think about the reason there is such thing as residual brakes and solid brake pipes on the abs modulator that crack under normal conditions. On a safety system, as they call it! This is BS!

I'm sorry to say this, but you obviously never have been in a situation which have required you to break as hard as possible on a slippy surface, there is no way a non-abs bike can do that, without interesting things start to happen.

ABS might be adding more components to the bike which can fail, but as someone else pointed out, we do not know how likely that is, and if this was a common problem, then BMW would have to do a recall.

But it's a free choice, get your self a bike without ABS, and be happy.

Casper

 

[nemezis]

But it's a free choice, get your self a bike without ABS, and be happy.

I am happy:

1. No ABS, especially no ABS from BMW
2. No BMW

you obviously never have been in a situation which have required you to break as hard as possible on a slippy surface.

I crashed in Mid December on ice. Do you have any idea if ABS is there a help?

 

[st247]

2. No BMW

Then why are you here?

 

[nemezis]

Then why are you here?

To help the BMW riders. What I do is delivering information.

MartinL experienced a brake failure with his ABS equipped BMW. That brake failure wasn't necessary because I informed here at UKGSER very early about the flawed design of the steel lines. I remember that I did that in November 2007.

What for?

 

[BBB61]

To help the BMW riders. What I do is delivering information.

You call what you deliver information????

What for?

We can't work it out, so if you have no idea then we are all stuffed!

 

[BBB61]

What's wrong with you little girl? It was in the TV-News, in the Newspapers, in the motorcycle-magzines, it was everywhere: Design flaw with the ABS!

It didn't make the newspapers or the TV here in the UK. I very much doubt it got that sort of coverage in the USA either. And I suspect that the media and authorities in Germany have got you listed as an unstable crackpot by now

 

[st247]

To help the BMW riders. What I do is delivering information.

Do you also help the owners of all the other manufacturers then, or just BMW's

MartinL experienced a brake failure with his ABS equipped BMW. That brake failure wasn't necessary because I informed here at UKGSER very early about the flawed design of the steel lines. I remember that I did that in November 2007.

No brake failure is ever necessary, and I suspect the fact that you informed us about the possibility of a failure, is not enough to prevent one.

What for?

Do you mean 'Why?', well i asked because i'm interested in why you started down this road, and why your so...hmmm.... passionate about BMW's faults. It would of course make it much easier for people to understand were your coming from if you give them some background. So far people know very little, apart form the fact that you have no ABS or a BMW which TBH does rather lower your credibility.

 

[nemezis]

Do you also help the owners of all the other manufacturers then, or just BMW's

Others, too. Especially Yamaha and Honda.

No brake failure is ever necessary, and I suspect the fact that you informed us about the possibility of a failure, is not enough to prevent one.

It's the faulty design of the steel lines! Since at least April 2008 owners should contact their dealers to change the flawed stell lines, replace them mit steel lines with a different design. What was MartinL thinking by not going to his dealer and then crying about his brake failure?

why you started down this road, and why your so...hmmm.... passionate about BMW's faults..

I am German. I am ashamed about the poor quality of German motorcycles and the stupidity of German engineers compared to Japanese engineers.

'residual brakes', steel brake lines, whatever.

 

[st247]

Others, too. Especially Yamaha and Honda.

Glad to hear it's not just us your helping. Got any Links.

It's the faulty design of the steel lines! Since at least April 2008 owners should contact their dealers to change the flawed stell lines, replace them mit steel lines with a different design. What was MartinL thinking by not going to his dealer and then crying about his brake failure?

The bike was two months old, and had already been fitted with the redesigned pipework at manufacture. So MartinL did nothing wrong. You'd be better off blamming BMW for a shitty redesign, but it might be that his is the only bike with redesigned pipework thats failed

I am German. I am ashamed about the poor quality of German motorcycles and the stupidity of German engineers compared to Japanese engineers.

'residual brakes', steel brake lines, whatever.

Hmmm....I suspect theres a bit more to it than that, but if your not prepared to say then thats your choice, but that will still restrict your credibility on here or other sites.

 

[MartinL]

Why did you start this thread?

I do know about the design flaw of the steel lines since at least May 2007. In November 2007 German media reported the problems with the ABS in question. April 2008 BMW started the campain (note: not a recall, authorities were not allowed to initiate a recall).

I mentioned the design flaw at ukgser several times. Was your brake failure necessary? I don't think so!

BTW: Do you know what BMW will answer you? At least the affected riders in Germany do know the answer. They do have such letters from 2007!!!

The thread was started to try to find out if this is a known failure mode and to inform others that this kind of failure is possible. I am neither familiar with the German media nor did I search for brake pipe failure threads when joining this forum. Why would I?

 

[MartinL]

Others, too. Especially Yamaha and Honda.



It's the faulty design of the steel lines! Since at least April 2008 owners should contact their dealers to change the flawed stell lines, replace them mit steel lines with a different design. What was MartinL thinking by not going to his dealer and then crying about his brake failure?



I am German. I am ashamed about the poor quality of German motorcycles and the stupidity of German engineers compared to Japanese engineers.

'residual brakes', steel brake lines, whatever.

Unfortunately I'm not clairvoyant so I have to wait until I've had a problem before going to the dealer. You've obviously also missed the point that my bike was already built with the modified set up and therefore should not have been affected (presuming the failure mode is the same which we don't actually know, maybe it was just over-torquing of the fittings?)

I don't recall crying about the problem either. All I've tried to do is exchange factual information in a calm and logical manner. The only people who have actually presented facts here are the guys who have experienced the failure first hand. Everything else is hearsay or personal opinion.

So once again what are the facts...how many actual failures?

 

[nemezis]

my bike was already built with the modified set up and therefore should not have been affected (presuming the failure mode is the same which we don't actually know, maybe it was just over-torquing of the fittings?)

I like that part.

There are documented brake failures with Continental Teves ABS with the "modified set up" (new designed steel brakes lines) in Germany, too. Some month ago I informed the authorities and gave them name, adress and telephone number of the victim.

Again I am very sorry for the poor quality from Germany. German engineers are a shame to all Germans and we would like to have engineers just like they work in Japan.

So once again what are the facts...how many actual failures?

These numbers are secret. There is no law to force BMW to bring the number before the public.

 

[Packer]

An interesting thread.

I own a servo abs equipped 2003 1150GS and twice in exceptional circumstances the ABS has cut in unexpectedly under hard braking on low friction surfaces. Did it save my skin? Maybe, I understand cadence braking and have used it in cars and on bikes without ABS. When it's slippery though the ABS will likely beat even a good and well practised human which I don't incidentally claim to be.

I have however experienced ABS failure on a loan 1200 servo ABS bike which resulted in a locked front wheel on a wet road. I was lucky and released the brake lever quickly enough to avoid the fall and retain control so ABS is not always essential.

It is also worth considering that what ABS does is release your brakes when the wheel slides. If the surface on which you are riding has a low enough coefficient of friction (grip) then you effectively have no brakes at all. Try riding your ABS bike on ice and see what I mean.

In 45,000 miles I have had no problems of any kind with any of the clever (?) bits. However, they are mechanical and will fail eventually.

I for one appreciate people like Nemezis bringing failures to our attention. I also think that as English is not his first language there can be a "loss in translation" (LIT). When he refers to a perfect non ABS system I take that to mean a traditional hydraulic bike braking system in good condition and not suggesting that such a system is perfect. On that basis it cannot develop the Servo/ABS faults as the components are simply not there and hence there are fewer faults that can develop. His statement that people who buy ABS bikes deserve only 25% braking is again a bit of a LIT and I would guess that he means that if you make the purchase aware of the known faults then you shouldn't be surprised if it happens to yours.

Next, if a circuit fails on a traditional system you still have one circuit so are you really any worse off than having 25% of the clever system. Probably not.

Lastly it is most regretable that such a thread deteriorates to mud slinging and personal insults. No benefit is dervied from this by anyone.

Of course the above is purely my view and interpretation of what has preceded it. I may of course be completely and utterly wrong

 

[nemezis]

there can be a "loss in translation" (LIT).

Thank you. You fixed the LIT almost perfectly.

 

[MartinL]

You sound like 14 year old girl that just got her period and is crying.

What was LIT with that statement then?

Seriously, bike was returned yesterday evening, everything fine. Gearbox casing just has the lightest yellow staining, hardly worth splitting the bike for but gues I'll get it done after my holidays just to ensure we have no future lacquer defects.

I'll still be writing to BMW for what it's worth. I'll keep you posted...

 

[Budweiser]

What was LIT with that statement then?

Seriously, bike was returned yesterday evening, everything fine. Gearbox casing just has the lightest yellow staining, hardly worth splitting the bike for but gues I'll get it done after my holidays just to ensure we have no future lacquer defects.

I'll still be writing to BMW for what it's worth. I'll keep you posted...

Enjoy your holiday

 

[nemezis]

just to ensure we have no future lacquer defects.

You can't ensure that. It's that simple. There are these ******* steel lines (that other brakes don't have) and that can crack. Even after the flawed steel lines are replaced with the newly designed steel lines. The better idea would have been flexible lines (see KTM LC8 Adventure N).

BTW: There have been cracked steel lines before, and not on the Continental Teves System but on the FTE automotive system. They found the fault on German police bikes.

I do not understand why people are starting alarmist ABS brake failure threads and at the same time the facts are already known for years. It's known for years that ABS brakes are less reliable than regular brakes because regular brakes are much more simple. No power assistance means no 'residual brakes'. No steel lines means no cracking steel lines. And it's not just only BMW that does have trouble with ABS brakes again and again. It's KTM, too, with the LC 8 Adventure N (rear brake failures).

People have to make choices.