The calorific value of 95 and 98 RON are near identical, using 98 RON for increased power is a waste of money as you won't get any more for your money. Where you will benefit is in knock prevention as 98 RON is more resistant to detonation.
R1200GS Knock and Ping Help Please
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Pukmeister said:
However, if the knock sensors detect knock on 95 RON fuel the GS will retard the ignition and hence power and throttle response are decreased. If they detect no knocking with 98 RON fuel the engine is allowed to run at optimum ignition timing and thus runs better.
End result is the GS engine produces more power with 98 RON petrol over 95 RON petrol when knocking/pinking is an issue.
Andres
Mouse
Registered user
Outtomunch said:
But for that to be the case, surely something must be wrong, the engine should not knock when using 95 RON fuel...
So either something is wrong with the engine, or the allegedly 95 RON fuel isn't. Maybe
Deleted account 211025001
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Mouse said:But for that to be the case, surely something must be wrong, the engine should not knock when using 95 RON fuel...
So either something is wrong with the engine, or the allegedly 95 RON fuel isn't. Maybe
Yup, that was sort of what I meant - just didn't explain my self too well.....
Just wondered if it explained the difference that peeps are feeling in performance between 95 and 98 RON petrol as all the 'techy' posts I've read on the subject would sugest that, all other things being equal, you should not get any difference.
Andres
RogerJ
Registered user
Dinger....first of all, don't worry be happy. Worrying doesn't help. You are under warranty. If BM claims in their press release and elsewhere that the bike should run normally i.e. not do knock and ping under normal use with gasoline grades within the approved range then they must fix it. If they can't then that is something else.
Yes, my dealer says I have a "knock and ping" problem and is seeking BM assistance as to how to deal with it. The bike was compared with another under similar load conditions and my noise is certainly different from the comparison bike. Also, mine has made the same noise since day delivery day. I also tape recorded the noise under varying load conditions eg. pulling away on a flat, on a slight incline, on a steeper inclince, etc. I also went to the trouble to ride now seven examples of 12GS and only mine makes this noise under these conditions. So....it is NOT a case of "They all do that, Sir." Otherwise it runs decently well. Apart from the "knock and ping" issue, I have been told that I have an improperly shimmed gearbox producing some "gearbox chatter" by a BM Tech in the USA. He has reshimmed quite a number of these says if properly shimmed then they do not "rattle." But that is a separate and mechanical issue as contrasted with "knock and ping" condition which is what we are focussed on now. "Knock and ping" IMVHO would point to an air/fuel question and I think increasingly points to a bad knock sensor as the main thing that theoretically could account for the knock and ping assuming that plugs, plug leads, valve clearances, TB synch, software update all check out. Will be interested to see what analysis BM Canada and BMW AG have to bring to bear on this "knock and ping" issue.
Yes, my dealer says I have a "knock and ping" problem and is seeking BM assistance as to how to deal with it. The bike was compared with another under similar load conditions and my noise is certainly different from the comparison bike. Also, mine has made the same noise since day delivery day. I also tape recorded the noise under varying load conditions eg. pulling away on a flat, on a slight incline, on a steeper inclince, etc. I also went to the trouble to ride now seven examples of 12GS and only mine makes this noise under these conditions. So....it is NOT a case of "They all do that, Sir." Otherwise it runs decently well. Apart from the "knock and ping" issue, I have been told that I have an improperly shimmed gearbox producing some "gearbox chatter" by a BM Tech in the USA. He has reshimmed quite a number of these says if properly shimmed then they do not "rattle." But that is a separate and mechanical issue as contrasted with "knock and ping" condition which is what we are focussed on now. "Knock and ping" IMVHO would point to an air/fuel question and I think increasingly points to a bad knock sensor as the main thing that theoretically could account for the knock and ping assuming that plugs, plug leads, valve clearances, TB synch, software update all check out. Will be interested to see what analysis BM Canada and BMW AG have to bring to bear on this "knock and ping" issue.
The official line from BMW motorrad UK:
"Thank you for your quick response.
The R1200GS is meant to run on 95 octane but knock sensors within the engine
enable it to run on lower grade fuel (i.e. 91 octane) albeit with a slight
reduction in power. Knocking at low revs on take off can be caused by
pulling away with too few revs causing the engine to labour.
We hope this answers your question and apologise for any confusion caused,
your comments about the handbook have been reported to our BMW Motorrad
Managers.
Kind regards
Sheila Jones
Product Information Advisor"
Maybe its just that ts a rattly air/oil cooled engine and we're all used to Jap water cooled 4's?
"Thank you for your quick response.
The R1200GS is meant to run on 95 octane but knock sensors within the engine
enable it to run on lower grade fuel (i.e. 91 octane) albeit with a slight
reduction in power. Knocking at low revs on take off can be caused by
pulling away with too few revs causing the engine to labour.
We hope this answers your question and apologise for any confusion caused,
your comments about the handbook have been reported to our BMW Motorrad
Managers.
Kind regards
Sheila Jones
Product Information Advisor"
Maybe its just that ts a rattly air/oil cooled engine and we're all used to Jap water cooled 4's?
Ste@SSB
Registered user
All fuels are not equal ... 95 from the supermarket petrol station round the corner is not the same as Shell or Esso 95 regardless of what anyone will tell you ... I could even tell the difference in my old Cavalier SRI never mind my bike ... all of the Bm's run fine on proper 95 ... all the new K12's run better on 98 ...
As with the next best thing in life ... your right hand will never tell you lies ...
As with the next best thing in life ... your right hand will never tell you lies ...
Mouse
Registered user
Ste@SSB said:
I hope you're referring to beer
RogerJ
Registered user
The Official Version Keeps Changing
Birdseye....thanks for sharing the BM UK reply to the question "how low in octane can you go?" Seems a far cry from the extract of the Official Press Release on launching the 12GS provided by Zmeagol. That document seems to indicate that you can run even lower than 91 octane without a problem. Hmmmmm..........seems to be a lack of fit between the two official versions of the capabilities and requirements of the bike.
Meanwhile, today I learned from my dealer that BM here has authorized them to swap out the knock sensors and see if that does the trick. Will let you know whether that provides the solution.
Birdseye....thanks for sharing the BM UK reply to the question "how low in octane can you go?" Seems a far cry from the extract of the Official Press Release on launching the 12GS provided by Zmeagol. That document seems to indicate that you can run even lower than 91 octane without a problem. Hmmmmm..........seems to be a lack of fit between the two official versions of the capabilities and requirements of the bike.
Meanwhile, today I learned from my dealer that BM here has authorized them to swap out the knock sensors and see if that does the trick. Will let you know whether that provides the solution.
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I posted the quoted section to demonstrate that you shouldn't be having a problem with knock on your R1200GS on standard UK fuel.RogerJ said:
The quote I gave was from the document on the North American press site and their definitions of 'premium' fuel are different from ours. The text from the UK press site reads...
Tim
RogerJ
Registered user
Zmeagol....I hear you. My assumption was that the phase:
Designed for unleaded premium fuel, the engine, thanks to knock control, is able to run also on regular fuel or other fuel qualities sometimes to be found in various countries, without requiring any kind of manual intervention or adjustment. Within the limits available, knock control adjusts the ignition angle automatically to the fuel on which the engine is running.
I was assuming that regular meant something below 91 octane, usually 87 octane. But agree with your conclusion that the 12GS should run fine on 91 octane (at least).
Designed for unleaded premium fuel, the engine, thanks to knock control, is able to run also on regular fuel or other fuel qualities sometimes to be found in various countries, without requiring any kind of manual intervention or adjustment. Within the limits available, knock control adjusts the ignition angle automatically to the fuel on which the engine is running.
I was assuming that regular meant something below 91 octane, usually 87 octane. But agree with your conclusion that the 12GS should run fine on 91 octane (at least).
RogerJ
Registered user
R1200 GS Knock and Ping - UPDATE
UPDATE
My initial post on this thread describes the problem I have had with my bike since delivery day. I appreciated the suggestions I got from the members of this board in suggesting “fixes” for this noise and vibration and passed on the gist of them to my dealer's BMW Master Tech.
After my dealer’s BMW Tech diagnosed a knock and ping problem, the dealer has been trying to make my knock and ping noise go away. After testing my bike with two up pulling away on the flat and on an incline a number of measures were tried. Many efforts to fix it including checking bike set-up, software upgrading the software, swapping out the knock sensors and finally a new BMS-K unit with new software programming. After all that was done the bike still knocks and pings and vibrates when warm under load under the same conditions. After four opportunities and attempts to stop this noise and vibration (characteristic of knock and ping) I have given up on this particular 12GS. When warmed up, the knock and ping is constantly there on every ride and been there since original delivery day and the ride home. I usually ride two up and with a fair bit of gear so the noise and vibration is even worse than just one up.
This is not a normal operating condition. The unit does not operate normally to specifications in that it knocks and pings constantly under load while using 91 and 94 octane fuels. The BMW published specifications and their press kits indicate that this GS was designed for unleaded premium fuel (RON 95) but that the engine, thanks to knock control, is able to run also on regular fuel (RON 91) or other fuel qualities sometimes to be found in various countries…. Certainly, then, it should operate properly on 91 and 94 octane fuels here in Canada. Unfortunately, this unit does not. Knock and ping causes internal engine damage and premature wear on parts. Uncontrolled fuel detonation that can not be brought into “time” is not acceptable on a motorcycle costing more than $20,000 CDN. Despite four opportunities and attempts to repair this condition, this noise and vibration under load (knock and ping) remains.
I have now ridden eight examples of the 12GS and none of them make the noise and vibration that mine does. Notwithstanding the fine efforts of my dealer in diagnosing this problem and attempting to fix it, it is time to move on. I have rejected the bike, delivered it up to the dealer for delivery to BMW Motorrad and requested a new R12GS from BMW. My plans for two major cross country tours were ruined while I have tried to resolve this issue. It is disappointing to pay a premium price for a reputedly reliable quality motorcycle product which, should it have a problem, is resolved quickly and completely. This is not what has happened in this case.
I am usually a BMW supporter, have been riding since 1965, and ridden BMW motorcycles exclusively since 1997 and bought six BMW bikes since then. I have never had a defective bike or warranty problemwith the other bikes. You would think this is the type of customer that BMW Motorrad would like to keep. Fourteen weeks have now passed since delivery date and the onset of this problem without resolution. Will let you know what BMW does now about this problem. It's enough to drive you to the drink.
UPDATE
My initial post on this thread describes the problem I have had with my bike since delivery day. I appreciated the suggestions I got from the members of this board in suggesting “fixes” for this noise and vibration and passed on the gist of them to my dealer's BMW Master Tech.
After my dealer’s BMW Tech diagnosed a knock and ping problem, the dealer has been trying to make my knock and ping noise go away. After testing my bike with two up pulling away on the flat and on an incline a number of measures were tried. Many efforts to fix it including checking bike set-up, software upgrading the software, swapping out the knock sensors and finally a new BMS-K unit with new software programming. After all that was done the bike still knocks and pings and vibrates when warm under load under the same conditions. After four opportunities and attempts to stop this noise and vibration (characteristic of knock and ping) I have given up on this particular 12GS. When warmed up, the knock and ping is constantly there on every ride and been there since original delivery day and the ride home. I usually ride two up and with a fair bit of gear so the noise and vibration is even worse than just one up.
This is not a normal operating condition. The unit does not operate normally to specifications in that it knocks and pings constantly under load while using 91 and 94 octane fuels. The BMW published specifications and their press kits indicate that this GS was designed for unleaded premium fuel (RON 95) but that the engine, thanks to knock control, is able to run also on regular fuel (RON 91) or other fuel qualities sometimes to be found in various countries…. Certainly, then, it should operate properly on 91 and 94 octane fuels here in Canada. Unfortunately, this unit does not. Knock and ping causes internal engine damage and premature wear on parts. Uncontrolled fuel detonation that can not be brought into “time” is not acceptable on a motorcycle costing more than $20,000 CDN. Despite four opportunities and attempts to repair this condition, this noise and vibration under load (knock and ping) remains.
I have now ridden eight examples of the 12GS and none of them make the noise and vibration that mine does. Notwithstanding the fine efforts of my dealer in diagnosing this problem and attempting to fix it, it is time to move on. I have rejected the bike, delivered it up to the dealer for delivery to BMW Motorrad and requested a new R12GS from BMW. My plans for two major cross country tours were ruined while I have tried to resolve this issue. It is disappointing to pay a premium price for a reputedly reliable quality motorcycle product which, should it have a problem, is resolved quickly and completely. This is not what has happened in this case.
I am usually a BMW supporter, have been riding since 1965, and ridden BMW motorcycles exclusively since 1997 and bought six BMW bikes since then. I have never had a defective bike or warranty problemwith the other bikes. You would think this is the type of customer that BMW Motorrad would like to keep. Fourteen weeks have now passed since delivery date and the onset of this problem without resolution. Will let you know what BMW does now about this problem. It's enough to drive you to the drink.
Last edited:
Thanks for the update Roger, and good luck with the replacement, I'm sure BWM will come through for you eventually, especially if you imply that you will be making a noise in the Canadian motoring press warning potential customers to buy with extreme caution due to warranty shortcomings etc. if they arent forthcoming.
The GS may be a top seller worldwide, but I am sure they don't want any dents in their reputation or the risk of potential customers being put off, plus I believe (maybe naively) that they are a professional outfit who genuinely strive for customer satisfaction and loyalty.
I suspect that your bike could be knocking due to a stack up of manufacturing tolerances causing fuelling and ignition timing faults. This could include such things as sensor component mounting locations being machined into keyways at the extremes of tolerance etc. If enough components are at the maximum tolerance range, the overall effect is to cause smooth running problems. What non-engineers would call a 'Friday afternoon' bike (or Lemon).
I really enjoy my 1200 despite a few minor niggles, and I sincerely hope your future replacement bike gives you the same pleasure without any troubles.
The GS may be a top seller worldwide, but I am sure they don't want any dents in their reputation or the risk of potential customers being put off, plus I believe (maybe naively) that they are a professional outfit who genuinely strive for customer satisfaction and loyalty.
I suspect that your bike could be knocking due to a stack up of manufacturing tolerances causing fuelling and ignition timing faults. This could include such things as sensor component mounting locations being machined into keyways at the extremes of tolerance etc. If enough components are at the maximum tolerance range, the overall effect is to cause smooth running problems. What non-engineers would call a 'Friday afternoon' bike (or Lemon).
I really enjoy my 1200 despite a few minor niggles, and I sincerely hope your future replacement bike gives you the same pleasure without any troubles.
RogerJ
Registered user
Pukmeister....Thanks for the advice and good wishes. Much appreciated. I, too, hope BMW will do the right thing. I think it was actually a Monday bike but same difference.
motozen
Guest
Roger, I should have thought to ask you to let me try your bike as you did mine at Watkins Glen! I'm curious to hear what you hear..
So you're saying John Parker is back at Budd's and has given up on a fix? or is a new engine next on the list? You shouldn't have to be calling and pushing, Budd's motorcycle manager should talk to Andre Richard and demand authorization for a replacement bike. I think the buck stops with him. He's the one who authorized my replacement out of true rear spoke wheel, a second metal key, and the full tool kit.
Keep us posted!
R.
So you're saying John Parker is back at Budd's and has given up on a fix? or is a new engine next on the list? You shouldn't have to be calling and pushing, Budd's motorcycle manager should talk to Andre Richard and demand authorization for a replacement bike. I think the buck stops with him. He's the one who authorized my replacement out of true rear spoke wheel, a second metal key, and the full tool kit.
Keep us posted!
R.
RogerJ
Registered user
I am happy to say that BMW Canada is replacing the motorcycle. The important thing is that at the end of the day, BMW has done the right thing. 
RogerJ
RogerJ
Glad you got it sorted, mine went to the dealer yesterday for the reasonably simple fitting of another replacement front engine cover due to yet more corrosion forming on the new one they fitted in May. Once the cover was removed, they found corrosion to the engine internals due to a leaking shaft seal (????) so I have a 10 day wait for parts from germany, plus fitting time at the dealers. Good job I have 2 bikes really.
Just my luck.....
Just my luck.....
