R1200GS -v- KTM 950s detailed comparison

Tobers

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I looked all over but couldn’t find a detailed comparison apart from blurb in magazines written by people who don’t live with the bikes every day, so I wrote my own. Hopefully it’s as objective as possible, but it is my own opinion – do with it what you will :D It's not intended to fuel the raging R1200GS debate but if it does that's fine with me as it's fun to watch. No doubt others will have their own differing opinions which is cool by me.

For the record, this is a comparison of a 2004 R1200GS and a 2004 KTM 950 Adventure S. 22k miles on the BMW and 13k miles on the KTM.

<B>ENGINE:</B>

R1200GS:

Smooth and quite powerful. Less vibes. Much better than the 1150 engine.

Strangely slow to pick up – feels like a delay between twisting the throttle and the thing actually getting going as though the grip and the throttles aren’t quite properly connected. A bit snatchy “on/off” at slow town speeds. Tends to run on a bit on a closed throttle when slowing e.g. for traffic lights.

KTM 950S:

More willing to rev, picks up faster. Definitely vibrates more. Feels faster – probably is faster. Power feels much more accessible. Very silky at slow speeds – not jerky like the BMW.

It has a choke (!!!). Potentially a bit of a fiddle – you don’t just prod the starter and off it goes. However, I do feel I have more control over what the engine does.

It has carbs – no fuel injection. Hurrah – contributes to the beautiful fuelling and controllability at slow speeds.

<B>HANDLING:</B>

R1200GS:

On-road: Lovely GS-style cornering – bike feels flickable and seems to pivot around the middle of the bike. Basic suspension adjustability but adjustment is pretty easy. Rear needs lots of preload to avoid the front feeling vague and flighty at motorway speeds.

Can feel somewhat disconnected from the road – less feedback than from the KTM.

Lots of corner grip – more than a big bike like this should have. Very easy and confidence inspiring to ride in the rain.

Offroad fairly limited travel and lots of clonking & clanging noises. Results in “steady” progress – nothing overly exciting.

KTM950S

On-road: Surprisingly excellent handling. The “S” version has longer travel suspension than the standard version. The suspension is definitely much better quality than the BMW – feels very smooth and progressive. Completely adjustable. Lovely “magic carpet” ride. Lots of fork dive under braking but this is kind of fun – huge amounts of feedback. Pirelli Scorpion tyres seem similarly grippy to Tourances.

Very flickable but being lower the GS probably has the edge..

Substantially more capable off road than the GS – quicker everywhere, smoother, more bump absorbtion, no clonking – very competent indeed.

<B>CONTROLS</B>

R1200GS:

Throttle – why such a long travel throttle? Makes top end power much harder to get at and the bike feels slower as a result. Needs “an extra handful”. Someone invent a short travel throttle thingy!

Usual BMW indicators. Quality feel to all the controls. Nice Rider Info Display and cockpit layout looks good. Nice accessible switches for trip meter and heated grips.

Decent adjustability on the seat, levers etc.

Throttle heavy and gets heavier with more miles – a right pain. Clutch OK – fairly light.

Handlebar configuration is poor – too much rearward sweep leads to sore wrists and elbows (for me!). Fitted Renthal bars to mine – much better.

KTM950S

All controls feel light and higher precision than the BMW. Quicker action throttle makes riding feel more fun – easier to get all the power down quickly.

Indicator switch is a tad small. Otherwise, controls are all pretty much as per a “normal” bike.

No heated grips as standard but have had Oxford ones fitted – needed separate switch which is tucked away but not as neat as BMW switch.

Dash looks “rugged” if a bit like a lego kit. Decent amount of info available on display, but switching modes is a bit more difficult as the button is on the dash not the bars.

No seat adjustment but can get lower seat, different seat config, suede rally seats etc.

Bar positioning/ergonomics much better than BMW

<B>BRAKES</B>

R1200GS:

Brakes Very powerful. Stunning powerful in fact. Lacking in feel – can be too sudden when trickling through traffic.

Rear pads wear v.quickly.

Question on reliability – overcomplex. I had 2 brake failures due to rear light bulb/fixture corrosion. Confidence took a blow – should have gone non-ABS for simplicity.

ABS is interesting, but not “granular” enough for me. Tends to be triggered when braking and hitting a bump/pothole resulting in alarming running on without braking for a few yards until it cuts in again. Questionable in its value in the current format – sort of nice to have & reassuring esp on cold wet commuting days, but would a system with more feel and less complexity be better.

KTM950S

Not as powerful as the BMW by a long way. Front callipers are just 2-pot each – no inner pistons – probably accounts for the reduced power (also obvious lack of a servo!). One gets used to it though – its just a bit alarming when you jump straight off a GS which has such powerful brakes (when they work!). Just squeeze the lever harder.

Not linked at all. More rider control as a result if you feel up to it. Lots of feel & feedback.

More confidence in them working versus the over-complex BMW system.

Would like them to be more gutsy though. Will maybe try different pads.

<B>Gearbox</B>

R1200GS

Gear change is definitely easier/smoother than the R1150GS. However, it’s still clunky and can be very clunky going from 1st to 2nd. It also seems like the gearbox “wears in” over time and becomes smoother as the miles progress.

The clutch is another thing entirely. I had a new clutch fitted under warranty at 22k miles as the original one’s pressure plate was incredibly weak & “like chocolate”, resulting in clutch slip, clutch drag, difficulty changing down etc. BMW have since changed their clutch supplier (in June 2006) but I’d be concerned if I had a pre June 06 clutch in mine and it was out of warranty.

KTM950S

Much smoother than the GS – a nice light touch is all that is required.

Can be a bit vague however going from 3rd to 4th – needs a firmer prod. Not encountered any jumping out of gear or false neutrals at all though.

The clutch is lighter than the GS and cable operated. When cold it is a bit peculiar when pulling away in first for about 5 minutes – once the bike is warm its fine. Symptom is a sort of clutch slip for a fraction of a second as you let the lever out, then it bites as per normal. If you warm the bike up before setting off it’s fine.

<B>Comfort</B>

R1200GS

Riding position has decent leg room, already written about the bars being awkward. Reach to bars is fine.

Seat is comfy from the off – good for an hour and a half before you need to stand on the pegs and wiggle about a bit. No pillion impressions I’m afraid.

Screen has high-frequency buffeting in upright position – less in lower position – less again with Tobinators (of course!). Quite noisy though. Overall, weather protection is pretty good.

Must have a hugger fitted otherwise your left leg gets covered in crud from the rear wheel.

Smooth at 80-90mph

KTM950S

Riding position is pretty similar to the GS but obviously somewhat higher (by 2-3 inches). Need to be over 6’ tall for this bike. The non-S version is lower though.

Bars are narrower by a couple of inches making the bike feel rather more compact. Reach to the bars is about the same but the bars are straighter and therefore more comfy than the GSs.

Seat is not adjustable and is harder & thinner than the GSs. Good for an hour before you need to stand on the pegs & wiggle about a bit. Not done a full long day on it yet. Can get a gel seat for £80 which is meant to be better.

Screen is non adjustable and has high frequency buffeting like the R1200GS in the upright position. Need to do some thinking about this. Usual problem – partial vacuum behind the screen fills & pops – no air directed under/behind the screen is the cause.

Engine is more vibey at 5000rpm. Not as smooth at 80-90 as the GS.

<B>Fit & Finish</B>

R1200GS:

Looks OK from the showroom but does corrode (front engine cover, side stand, frame paint). Not convinced long term.

Seat wears through at the sides very quickly if standing on the pegs (offroad).

Concern about fitting of the side panels specifically how the front lower fastenings work – need to be v.careful how these are fitted.

My 2 year old 22k miler did come up very clean and shiny but it was a pain to clean the engine. A front mudguard extender is required to keep most of the crud off the engine.

Comes apart very easily. The panels & tank can be taken off in about 10 mins to get at the guts of the bike.

KTM950S:

Definitely high quality kit – all parts look very respectable.

Spoke nipples can get rusty – usually a warranty replacement. Warranty is 3 years.

Generally quite impressive – my 2 year old 12k mile bike is in extremely good nick with no corrosion and everything comes up nice & shiny.

More difficult to take to bits than the GS – oil change can be tricky for example but with the right kit it can be done quickly (e.g. sucking the oil out rather than draining it).

<B>Commuting</B>

R1200GS

Pretty easy – high riding position, mainly smooth but can be jerky on partial throttle openings. Good weather protection. Tends to be a bit “tippy” just when coming to a stop.

KTM950S

Being narrower, it’s a bit more practical than the GS for squeezing between gaps. A bit higher so can see a bit further. Gets f-hot as the fans blow hot air onto your legs though, especially in the current heat here in the UK. More fun than the GS, but can be driven in a dull boring fashion if required.

<B>B-Roads</B>

R1200GS

Lovely for pootling and looking at the scenery. Handles rough roads with ease. Very competent.

KTM950S

Similar to the GS really, but a bit more capable on gnarly rough stuff. Not as smooth engine-wise. Easy to get to the power when needed. More fun than the GS if you want it to be.

<B>A-Roads</B>

R1200GS:

Smooth, fast as you like. Sluggish throttle response and long throttle travel make it difficult to get the best out of the bike. Handling is slick and amusing. Very planted when the rear preload is setup properly. Leans loads. Very competent.

KTM950S:

Faster than the GS but that all depends on the rider of course. However, the power is more accessible. Brakes not so good but smooth riding negates this. Lots of feedback, great fun. Fun fun fun. FUN.

<B>Motorways</B>

R1200GS:

Miles & miles with no problem.

KTM950S:

More vibes and harder seat and lower tank range and screen turbulence mean you’ll be stopping for pies a bit more often. Personally I’d be happy to do the same distance in a day as on a GS – others with sensitive bums may not be.

<B>Fuel economy/range</B>

R1200GS:

240 miles to a tank with the fuel tank mod done (hole drilled in filler neck to get more fuel in)

KTM950S:

180ish miles to a tank (2 tanks actually). Seems to hold about the same as the GS. That’s carbs –v- fuel injection for you.

<B>Living with it</B>

R1200GS:

Usually hit the button and off you go. Does lots of things for you.

My opinion is that it is over-complex for a motorbike. There is too much to go wrong and bad consequences if/when it does. My personal opinion is that reliability is an issue with age/miles – I’m glad I had an extra year’s warranty with mine – the expense if things go wrong out of warranty is a concern. For example my new clutch would have cost £800+ if I’d had to pay for it myself.

Resale values for older bikes will not be what you maybe expected as a result. Be warned.

Lovely to ride, nice for pootling down country lanes, tours & long distance is fine, and can hoon around with ease. Sort of OK for gentle off-road but quite limited in reality compared to the KTM.

Sort of boring though by comparison. So many of them around. But nice if you’re not bothered by that sort of thing. I had 2 great years riding mine, did a lot of miles and it generally did what it said on the tin. Later bikes have most of the “glitches” sorted out I understand.

KTM950S:

Big tall and ugly. Mrs Tobers doesn’t like it which is good for me!

Simple, back to basics bike. I feel happier with it because of this. I feel that I can get my hands dirty and fix most things that might go wrong with it, whereas the BMW scared me (e.g. bleeding the ABS brakes, replacing clutch). Clearly the BMW dealers are happy with this as they get more servicing money from nervous owners.

Don’t fancy getting a puncture – tubed tyres likely to be a pain for roadside fixing. You can make them tubeless apparently. Hmmmm…

It is significantly more fun to ride than the R1200GS. Difficult to describe why, this is very subjective, but the engine is much more willing, it is probably faster – definitely feels much faster. It feels more alive and has much more rider feedback than the GS. Others natter about it being a grin-factory – it definitely is because of how much it involves you in the riding process.

Much much better off road if that’s your thing. I do a some green laning and its nice to know I have the capability under me (if not in my body).

It has a chain!!! Is this a problem? Not for me. If I add up the 4 weeks that my GS was awaiting a clutch to be fitted that makes a hell of a lot of 10 minute chain lubes. I do a lube every weekend – the bike has a centrestand so it’s pretty easy.

There are a number of known items that will have been fixed on used bikes under warranty – easy to check and lots of history on www.advrider.com.

<B>Conclusion</B>

If you want a bike that will usually get you from A to B in a very competent and well mannered way, and you are happy paying dealer prices for servicing, and not too much of an adrenaline junkie, then the GS is for you.

You probably wont have to, but you should be prepared to use the excellent BMW warranty, and if you sell up before it runs out, you’ll be a very happy camper.

I don’t want to be overly biased by my own experiences – I loved riding my GS and Vines BMW treated me extremely well throughout. But being realistic it is a 1st generation highly complex machine with a lot of bits than can go wrong very expensively.

If you want a very involving bike which you can easily explore, and want to be entertained and have an intense experience every time you ride, the KTM is for you. The KTM is a more “hands on” bike so if you’re a real “bike enthusiast” you’ll love it.

It has known 4 problems, which should have already been sorted under warranty. The warranty is 3 years.

The 990 KTM is going the wrong way – more complexity (ABS, EFI) and suffers from it.

The dealers appear to be very keen (Premier Bikes in Didcot – loan bike offers (950 Supermoto!!!), fast servicing etc) – they know what they are up against with the better BMW dealers. Shame I don’t have a dealer on my doorstep any more, but hopefully I wont need one as often!

Having had both in the garage for a bit (plus an Aprilia RSV for speed fixes), I always took the KTM. Didn’t think this would be the case initially. A lot of bike for your money – it seems used 950’s are being snapped up very quickly at the moment – wonder why.
 
That was really interesting reading, thanks for taking the time to write it up!

As a 1200 owner and somebody who has ridden a few 950's now I really can't fault anything you've written there, very fair IMHO :thumb

The only thing I'm not sure about are, residual values of (early) GS's - yes I'd have thought that reliablity concerns would affect this but the prices they go for at the moment don't seem to bear this out. And, secondly, the one thing that has put me off buying a KTboom so far is that I don't feel the engine is proven yet in terms of long term reliability/durability (although I've seen little yet for me to doubt it).

Anyway, I'm glad you are enjoying it so much - certainly is one hell of a bike!

Andres
 
Thank you for the report.

The throttle response on the GS can be fixed with a K&N filter and a full Remus system and the suspension with an Ohlins or Hyperpro (better). Not a cheap option of course.

May I ask about pillion comfort (which I know you mentioned was not tested) and hard luggage for long tours. Did you get a feel of the KTM with pillion on. Could it cope with a heavy load.

Many thanks

Steve
 
I've had a pillion on the GS on a couple of occasions and it handles it fine, but you need to up the preload otherwise the front gets all vague.

Haven't tried on the KTM but I'd imagine it would handle it just as well if not better with the additional suspension travel.

Whether the pillion would enjoy the experience is another matter :D

Oh - and the KTM hard luggage is very good but looks crap and sticks out miles to clear the exhausts making the bike as wide as the Severn Bridge. I use soft luggage usually.
 
:clap

Nice one , just a quicky though you dont have to be over 6ft for the 950 / 990 I managed ok same sort of height as my 1150 adv ,tip toes job but one foot flat.
Me I'm at 5ft 9inch :P .
I know which way i'm going next. :thumb
 
Good comparison. I realy fancy a 950. I have ridden a 990 and it was fantastic, i'm half looking for a good used 950 but my old 1150 has been great.Since riding the KTM my bm's suspension feels crude so looking at that is also a maybe :nenau .
 
Nice write up :thumb.

you've put ideas in my head - i want another bike ( and i won't sell the 11 ) - but the 12's weren't doing it for me.

I've just looked on biketrader here and the KTM's seem similar value.

How do i know what an S model is ?
Whats the web forum and what are the '4 faults' ? :)
 
motomartin said:
Nice write up :thumb.

you've put ideas in my head - i want another bike ( and i won't sell the 11 ) - but the 12's weren't doing it for me.

I've just looked on biketrader here and the KTM's seem similar value.

How do i know what an S model is ?
Whats the web forum and what are the '4 faults' ? :)
I'm thinking exactly the same. I have an old 1100 and it's not going to be for sale. The 1200, though brilliant to ride, is less of a long-term ownership proposition.

I've ridden a 990 and it's a really good bike, every bit as good as the 1200 but different. I agree with pretty much everything Tobers said in his comparison apart from that the 990's seat is gel-filled and really comfortable; apart from the high-rev vibration, more comfortable than the 1200 and that's saying something.
 
You can get the 990's gel seat for £80 from a KTM dealer - it's a straight replacement so no fitting hassles.

The 950S is the taller of them and it has "Adventure S" written on the side. The early 2003 ones are in Orange and not very distinguishable from the non-S bikes. From 2004 they tend to be in blue/orange, some with the Galouise "GO!!!!!!" on the side (the best ones are like this I understand :D). Non-S ones are black, orange or silver/grey.

From 2004 on the bikes have black rims. You really want the latest bike possible. I just missed a pukka brand-new one with zero miles by half an hour. Feck! Definitely at least a later 2004 bike with black rims.

The 4 problems which should be fixed from memory are:

clutch pushrod changed from alloy to stainless
head gasket bolts replaced with non-stretchy ones
carb heaters fitted
starter clutch bolts checked & replaced if req'd.

The dealers should have access to the KTM warranty database to confirm if these have been done. Should also be on the service receipts for the bike.

I'm not sure if UK bikes have this emissions control system (cannister) that our American friends keep wittering on about removing. I think it may just be for the Californian emissions regs - will have to take a good look at the bike's innards.

Lots of blurb on http://www.advrider.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=34
 
Blimey!

I had to check. I thought I'd stumbled into Orange-Crush for a moment! :eek:

What's with this KTM love-in? (Where are all the 1200 owners crying 'bollocks'?) :confused:

Nice write-up Tobers :clap but it's more of a justification for your recent choice and we all like to justify our choices (not least to ourselves). ;)
 
MikeP said:
Blimey!

I had to check. I thought I'd stumbled into Orange-Crush for a moment! :eek:

What's with this KTM love-in? (Where are all the 1200 owners crying 'bollocks'?) :confused:

Nice write-up Tobers :clap but it's more of a justification for your recent choice and we all like to justify our choices (not least to ourselves). ;)

Hear Hear.......oh and bolloxx (no offence), I'll stick to me 1150!!!
 
Excellent write up Tobers. Thanks.
I have the 12 (bought your bits for it). But I will have to have a look at the Katoomer again. Over on ADVRIDER there have been a lot of reports of coolant pump problems as well - not sure if this was just with early model.
I found this a bit off putting when I was doing the research but then I went and bought the 12 :D :thumb (I must have a thick skin cos look what a slagging that gets around here). Generally I have loved it and it has done everything for me that the brochure promised and opened up a new and rewarding world of adventure biking.
re the brakes on the 12 I am highly conflicted.
If I am honest I think the abs/linked servos may have saved me a couple of times when I :censor::censor::censor::censor:ed up. On the other hand they are over complex/temperamental if you take them out in the boondocks - dust in the servo activation switch screwing up the computerised check system etc.
If I read you correctly you are saying the best ktm option is a 950 that was built towards the end of production run before the 990 was introduced.
Have you ridden the 990 as well?
cheers :clap
 
Good report Tobers. :thumb

I can't help but like those KTMs. :) The Dark or rather Orange-side of the Force. :D

But for anything more than a weekend blast I will stick with my GS. :)
 
An excellent, honest and fair comparison. I had an 1150 GS for 3 years, I've had my KTM950S for 2 1/2 years and I've also had a 1200RT for a year. The only thing I'd add is that the KTM is much more confidence inspiring at walking pace lane splitting. Very well balanced with the centre of gravity down by your shins. Even with the counterbalancer, the BM has still got a certain amount of low speed lurch.
 
I also looked at the 990, and compared with the 1150 & 1200 a couple of thing put me off.
1) Tubed tyres, I know of 3 people who have had blow outs, one of them at high speed
2) servicing every 4000 miles compared to 6000 for the BMW's that's 3 services to 2 over a 12000 mile period.
3)KTM dealer network, no where near as good, although the KTM dealers do seems to try hard, there's just not that many about
4)residuls, my 1150 has lost 40% of it's value over four years. That's about what the KTM will do in a year

the other things were just personal preferances, but my feelings were that the KTM would be a 1 year wonder, then I would want to replace it, as for the BM, well I have never owned a bike for as long.

just my 2 pennith worth

Andrew
 
As an 1150 owner who will eventually replace it I'm with a few others here wondering what I will do. The 12 doesn't do it for me either really.

Thanks for the write up.

Colin.
 
Tobers said:
If you want a bike that will usually get you from A to B in a very competent and well mannered way, and you are happy paying dealer prices for servicing, and not too much of an adrenaline junkie, then the GS is for you.

Yup, that's me! :clap

Nice write up Tobers. Commentary like that reminds me why I joined the site in the first place. :bow
 
Nice review Tobers!! I've not ridden the 1200, went straight from an 1150GS to a new KTM 950 (you know, one of the last of the new ones from Premier..... ;) ). I test rode a 990 but didn't get on with its (well-documented) snatchy fuelling around town and steady speeds.

Agree with your praise and concerns about the KTM. I love it to bits, but it certainly does fry your feet when the fan kicks in round town!

I have the later gel seat, but I still didn't find it that comfy and missed my comfy GS seat on longer runs. However, an Airhawk pad has sorted that now.

The KTM H&B panniers are indeed wide! They are double-skinned too (supposedly to carry water between the layers :rolleyes: what-evvv-eerrrrr), but this robs them of internal carrying capacity, so I would recommend looking at other options to suit your needs before committing to the KTM system.

The first service (600 miles) is a big one, so try and haggle the price of that off the bike.

If I was doing more longer trips/touring I probably would have stuck with my old 1150, for comfort and the general steady nature of the beast. However, those sort of holidays are not on the cards for me for the next 3-4 years, so the KTM fits the bill better for sunday blasts, day trips and weekends away. I don't think of the 950 as 'better' or 'worse' than my old 1150, it's just different.

:beerjug:
 
I owned an 1150gsa for just over 2 years followed by a ktm950 for another 2 years. The GS was a great bike let down by build issues and back-up problems (foriegn recovery following part failure, had to bodge it) and poor service / warrenty management locally, bike often going back 2 times for one job as the wrong part had been shipped/ordered but not checked until the bike was in the shop waiting for it to be fitted etc. or issues created whilst doing one job that needed a second visit to fix.
The Ktm was a 1st year 1st release bike and had a few issues fixed promptly. I moved on to sports bikes after the ktmn (Duc1000ss) as I wanted a last fling with scratching (the 21" ktm front is a little scary in the mind though it never let go). The Duc was a dissapointment in power so now have a 999. I had considered a 12GSA or a ktm990 but niether had moved on enough (for me) to get me back, The GS still has the rear drive/gearbox scares (my GS rear drive was goosed at 11Kmiles though I suspect by poor service rather than natural failure) and the KTM990 is too much like the 950 to temp me back just yet, a style update may get me in a year or so once I've got the sportsbike theme out of my blood (or back) again. The bimmer needs better user press first , the 990 is only getting gripes from jecky throttle from what I've seen sofar. that said the 12gsa has a certain look that the ktm cant beat.
 


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