Random waypoints added to routes.

[er-minio]

I'm leaving this evening and, of course, I updated the Zumo yesterday and now ran into a problem.

Not a massive issue because I use tracks as backups, but still would like to understand what is happening.


I created some routes on Basecamp, using the line segment tool as usual.
All good.

Uploaded to XT right now and it took forever to import them.

Since the maps on the XT are a newer version (update yesterday) than those on BC I was expecting those weird straight lines... but didn't happen. The route seems to be plotted properly, but there is a crapload of waypoints added to the route.
I didn't use any, only shaping points.

Why???

One of the routes has been split in two as the XT says there are more than 90 (!) waypoints.


I'm trying to update the maps on my Mac to re-export everything, but Garmin Express doesn't "see" the XT.

 

[er-minio]

Express now work. Updating.

 

[Wapping]

Nice route, by the look of it.

That is a weird one, which I have never seen before.

I have now given up on BaseCamp, something which I thought I’d never say, and moved entirely to MyRoute, which seems much more stable. That it works on my iPad and phone is just a bonus. I have though stuck with my Garmin GPS device, preferring it over my phone for actual navigation.

Can you share the route with us please, so we can try it on our XT devices.

 

[er-minio]

Thanks Richard, I got into the habit of putting all the trip data into Notion pages (I'm traveling with a friend and I have to share the plans with him down to details, as he has a way slower pace than mine and the agreement is that I give full routes and then wait for him every once in a while )

Here, there is a link to the GPX file. – Strike that, I'll send the data in MP.


I updated now the maps on my Mac. Recalculating and re-exporting the routes.
Haven't had much time to play with MRA yet (didn't really like it initially to be honest). But I know I will have to drop BC at some point.

 

[er-minio]

Detail of the route (first part) some shaping points are converted to waypoint. No idea why.

 

[er-minio]

I might have a theory to why those are Waypoints instead of shaping points...

 

[Wapping]

er-minio has kindly shared his itinerary and route with me. As it contains some personal stuff, I’ll just limit the sharing here to the key essentials.

For the sake of continuity, I have only used the day one route, as shown in er-minio’s post above.

I have put it into MyRoute.

MyRoute reproduces BaseCamps shaping and via points exactly. Each one gets a sequential number and each either a teardrop (shaping point) or ‘hand’ (via point’).

Things I see are:

A. There is a lot of points, 151 in all in a 305 mile. This surprises me.

B. There are ‘hand’ symbols at the start and the end. These are quite normal and are the equivalent of BaseCamp’s via points, where you have to have a start and end point.

C. There are ‘hands’ symbols at points 32, 34,37, 41…… and many several more. Obviously some are points that er-minio needs to go through but I am not sure of their exact purpose. Some ‘hand’ via points are blocked together in groups (almost consecutive) whilst others just seem to appear. Hands will appear as flags in the XT. They are also selectable, ie they will appear as potential destinations, when starting a route.

I know that er-minio is good at BaseCamp and very tech savvy, so I assume they serve a purpose?

I will now load it into my XT, to see what it displays.

 

[er-minio]

so I assume they serve a purpose?

No, they don't.
I fixed the problem and re-uploaded the file without all those extra waypoints.


To go in order:

A) I do add a shaping point ever 3 to 4km generally, in order to avoid the XT to recalculate as much as possible. (I also have a track of the route displayed beneath it). It is a bit of habit, I know I can place them farther apart.

B) Yes. Correct. I sometimes specify one or two waypoints mid route (stops, deviations, etc.) but didn't here... intentionally.

C) "There are ‘hands’ symbols at points 32, 34,37, 41……" Yep, I didn't intentionally create those as waypoints. I went back and cleaned the route (select all points but the first and last and set them to "do not announce").
I think I understood what happened.

I normally create the route with the segment tool and place all the shaping points. Sometimes when creating the route I have to switch to another app, or click by error, so you "drop" the tool, the route is "completed" as is by basecamp.
But, then you double click on the route, re-select the segment tool and you can restart from the last dropped shaping point.
Only that that last shaping point has now been converted to a waypoint (end of route). When you extend the route, that stays as a waypoint.

While doing this routes I "dropped" and recovered the segment tool multiple times, and I think all those spurious Waypoints are the result.
I don't remember BC behaving like this before, because I always work this way and never had this issue.

It all works now though.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Wapping]

Thank you. Great that you have mended it. There is nothing worse than being about to go away, especially with someone else, and thinking “Oh no, it’s corrupt….”.

The good news is that I had exactly the same result as you ie. the same flags displayed in my XT. That at least told me that it was something inside the route, as opposed to something else.

I have read through your comments and can agree with all of them, especially

I normally create the route with the segment tool and place all the shaping points. Sometimes when creating the route I have to switch to another app, or click by error, so you "drop" the tool, the route is "completed" as is by basecamp.
But, then you double click on the route, re-select the segment tool and you can restart from the last dropped shaping point.
Only that that last shaping point has now been converted to a waypoint (end of route). When you extend the route, that stays as a waypoint.

Now that I think about it, MyRoute recommends a shaping point every 5 km’s as ‘Best practice’; I probably don’t add enough but it seems to work. One of the very useful things in MyRoute is that it’s possible to have the app add or ‘expand’ the number of shaping points automatically, inserting them into a route after it’s been created. The user simply chooses the number he wants. So, for a 300 km trip, you would ask it for say, 60.


Do give MyRoute another go. I was very sceptical when it first came out, years ago. Then, as BaseCamp became more flakey and an XT gained Bluetooth file transfer, it all became much more worthwhile.

 

[Berin]

If the issue is just the flags, this was solved previously by converting the route to a track in Basecamp, then converting the track back to a route.


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[Wapping]

If the issue is just the flags, this was solved previously by converting the route to a track in Basecamp, then converting the track back to a route.


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True but doing that wipes out all the flags, including the ones that were wanted to be kept.

 

[Boxerboy55]

As an aside from a recent convert to XT …….

I’ve been loading up my XT for next week’s trip and deliberately ignored the pop up offer to update Basecamp.

And, I’ve kept the XT switched off from all WiFi and Bluetooth connections so there’s no chance of corruption of my plans at the 11th hour.

 

[er-minio]

That’s the best approach (no last minute updates).

Luckily, in this case, the issue wasn’t the updates, but BC’s behaviour, and easily fixed.
I’m in France now and re-loaded the routes and all seems to be ok.


I updated the Zumo as I had some issues with the Cardo (when connected to it) that hope have been solved. But this is for another topic…

 

[er-minio]

We're in Nancy today, not traveling today as there are storms all around so decided to stay put (and I had to catchup with some work).

Routes are fine, apart from the Zumo telling me to go "off the road" on two shaping points and then telling me to do a "u turn" on another two shaping points, in both cases ignoring the instruction and going past the shaping point gave no issues and navigation resumed ok.

The only other weirdness was this:

I should have noticed that it deviated from the underlying track (in gray). But forgot to change the track colour (I usually do magenta route over yellow track).

 

[er-minio]

T
Do give MyRoute another go. I was very sceptical when it first came out, years ago. Then, as BaseCamp became more flakey and an XT gained Bluetooth file transfer, it all became much more worthwhile.

I get that.
A lot of my use of Basecamp is creating tracks while using OSM custom maps (rights of way indicated, etc.).
I don't think I've seen a way of using custom maps on any web based software, both Garmin's terrible Explore or the better dutch alternative you suggest: MRA.

Is there a way?
(We can split this in a separate thread maybe)

 

[Berin]

I get that.
A lot of my use of Basecamp is creating tracks while using OSM custom maps (rights of way indicated, etc.).
I don't think I've seen a way of using custom maps on any web based software, both Garmin's terrible Explore or the better dutch alternative you suggest: MRA.

Is there a way?
(We can split this in a separate thread maybe)

I don’t think there is an easy way to do what you want at the moment, er-minio. I’d be happy for someone to prove me wrong.

Most of the route planning apps only use the maps that are supplied, and ‘route’ - I.e you put in your start and end point and maybe some waypoints and a route is created, which can then be modified, but as far as I can see, the modification only extends to choosing another route on the road; in other words, you can’t draw an overlay wherever you like like you can with Basecamp.

Memory map allows you to draw tracks, as did the old view ranger (now outdoor active). But they only use the maps provided. Locus maps does allow other maps to be used, and allows tracks to be drawn but it’s an android app only.


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[er-minio]

Ye, I fear that is the same.

There are basically a couple of scenarios I use the Zumo:

A to B navigation.
I am here, go there. Maybe I can select the curvy route. I did it a couple of times (curvy) works well.
Or I am in London and have to get to a specific location I don't know.
I don't care about maps in this case.

Planned navigation
I want to go exactly (or very close to) the way I planned on the computer. Auto-reroute in case of necessity (closed road, etc.).
I will generally provide a route with enough shaping points to avoid recalculation (where necessary) + some waypoints for re-entry on the route and other waypoints for decision making (change route here, etc.).
Each route has its own track that I keep displayed below the route to check if the zumo recalculates.
This is 99% done with City Navigator maps. I don't care which map I am using as long as it is detailed and, when sent to Zumo, there are no recalculation errors. Working on the same map makes sense, I am dubious of the results using third party cartography.

Offoroad planning and/or hiking
I use some specific OSM-based maps with right of way and higher detail added, in order to be sure I am going where it is legal to do so. This is slightly less relevant when hiking, but those are topo-maps, I use them for both activities.
In this case I only create tracks and waypoints (offroading on the DRZ and hiking I use a 64s, so I can create alerts on waypoints, the satnav rings when approaching them).
I would follow the track and use some of the waypoints as reference and others as "drive from home to here" or "drive from here to home" when switching map to CN at beginning or ending of offroad route.


Case 2 and 3 I'd like to be able to use my maps.
It is an use case Garmin is completely ignoring.

For use case A most people are good with a mobile.

 

[russ996duke]

No, they don't.
I fixed the problem and re-uploaded the file without all those extra waypoints.

C) "There are ‘hands’ symbols at points 32, 34,37, 41……" Yep, I didn't intentionally create those as waypoints. I went back and cleaned the route (select all points but the first and last and set them to "do not announce").
I think I understood what happened.

I normally create the route with the segment tool and place all the shaping points. Sometimes when creating the route I have to switch to another app, or click by error, so you "drop" the tool, the route is "completed" as is by basecamp.
But, then you double click on the route, re-select the segment tool and you can restart from the last dropped shaping point.
Only that that last shaping point has now been converted to a waypoint (end of route). When you extend the route, that stays as a waypoint.

While doing this routes I "dropped" and recovered the segment tool multiple times, and I think all those spurious Waypoints are the result.
I don't remember BC behaving like this before, because I always work this way and never had this issue.

It all works now though.

Thanks for the help!

having the same issue I would be interested to know how you fixed the route! I also find the route for short sections is doubling back on itself, when compare with the route created on PC, almost as id XT is re- ordering odd shaping points, which is a pain! the orange flags seem to be called stopping points by XT, which seems to confirm that dropping the segment tool is the issue

 

[Berin]

Ye, I fear that is the same.

There are basically a couple of scenarios I use the Zumo:

A to B navigation.
I am here, go there. Maybe I can select the curvy route. I did it a couple of times (curvy) works well.
Or I am in London and have to get to a specific location I don't know.
I don't care about maps in this case.

Planned navigation
I want to go exactly (or very close to) the way I planned on the computer. Auto-reroute in case of necessity (closed road, etc.).
I will generally provide a route with enough shaping points to avoid recalculation (where necessary) + some waypoints for re-entry on the route and other waypoints for decision making (change route here, etc.).
Each route has its own track that I keep displayed below the route to check if the zumo recalculates.
This is 99% done with City Navigator maps. I don't care which map I am using as long as it is detailed and, when sent to Zumo, there are no recalculation errors. Working on the same map makes sense, I am dubious of the results using third party cartography.

Offoroad planning and/or hiking
I use some specific OSM-based maps with right of way and higher detail added, in order to be sure I am going where it is legal to do so. This is slightly less relevant when hiking, but those are topo-maps, I use them for both activities.
In this case I only create tracks and waypoints (offroading on the DRZ and hiking I use a 64s, so I can create alerts on waypoints, the satnav rings when approaching them).
I would follow the track and use some of the waypoints as reference and others as "drive from home to here" or "drive from here to home" when switching map to CN at beginning or ending of offroad route.


Case 2 and 3 I'd like to be able to use my maps.
It is an use case Garmin is completely ignoring.

For use case A most people are good with a mobile.

Well, you can do all of those things, but only in Basecamp!

The XT will load the Talky Toaster maps, I’m pretty sure, and also the German gravel maps are quite good (but not at UK RoW) and will load.


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[Berin]

Well, you can do all of those things, but only in Basecamp!

The XT will load the Talky Toaster maps, I’m pretty sure, and also the German gravel maps are quite good (but not at UK RoW) and will load.


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Or Memory Maps, for your off-road routes. You can download to a tablet for offline working.


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