Remap by Hilltop Motorcycles

[(RIP) Johno23]

You guys that are fooling yourself that you have 25% more power .

On what basis/reasoning do you have to say that these guys are fooling themselves.They have a dyno readout from before and immediately after a remap,showing the increase.What are you suggesting has been done to fool them?

 

[kevmean]

First a disclaimer. I personally am not saying that Geoff is in any way manipulating the figures, nor am I having a go at his product. For me, the smoothness was nice but not worth the full £350. I'd have happily paid £150 for the improved smoothness. I have ridden the bike aggressively, including many laps of Cadwell, and can honestly say I couldn't find any notable performance increase even at WOT.

However, in answer to your question there are many ways that figure manipulation can be done. Here is just 1 example, there are many, many more. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDwjfZvmPHg

And just another example how incorrect figures could accidently be produced http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhaqaninU3s

 

[Blackal]

And just another example how incorrect figures could accidently be produced http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhaqaninU3s

Watched that, and have to ask the questions:

What has the air temperature probe got to do with the measurement at the rollers??

The rollers are either measuring the power, or they aren't?

Sure - the "real" ambient air temperature will affect the power developed (due to density) - - - - - - - But, the "real" temperature is not altering.

Al

 

[(RIP) Johno23]

And just another example how incorrect figures could accidently be produced http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhaqaninU3s

Didn't see anything on that video "accidental"

Now, I'm no mechanic but if I did a job on something I can understand I could make a mistake and accidently set up something wrong.
But not every time I did it. or hundreds of times........so that doesn't explain anything.

 

[Phoenix_63]

On what basis/reasoning do you have to say that these guys are fooling themselves.They have a dyno readout from before and immediately after a remap,showing the increase.What are you suggesting has been done to fool them?

That is exactly my point! I was in the Chamber watching over Geoff's shoulder, he does not know me from Adam so he would be foolish to manipulate figures in front of me in case I saw what he was doing. If he was into falsifying stuff, I'm sure he'd be out of business years ago.

 

[Wilsdorf]

And just another example how incorrect figures could accidently be produced http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhaqaninU3s

http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/dyno-operators-can-fix-results-mythbusters

 

[Wilsdorf]

That is exactly my point! I was in the Chamber watching over Geoff's shoulder, he does not know me from Adam so he would be foolish to manipulate figures in front of me in case I saw what he was doing. If he was into falsifying stuff, I'm sure he'd be out of business years ago.

I take your point. But, a lot of Hilltops reputation is based from results posted on this forum. I think the remap has value. I'm simply struggling with the approx 30% increase in bhp and 25% (I think, I'd need to double check) increases that my bike shows on the dyno charts provided. Even after all that, I'm still saying that the remap might be the right choice for you.

I just wouldn't like a member on here to travel a fair distance and have work carried out on their bike and think, 'well it's ok' but they expected more.

I'm fairly happy that a member reading the whole thread would be in a much better position to make a judgement call on what is best for them. & quite frankly I'm amazed that some members don't want to have open discussion - this is a community, I love The GS and I'm a long term owner. I expect to own a GS for years to come. So I have an interest in all/any potential tuning etc. that is available for our bikes.

 

[Pukmeister]

Surely the dynamometer neither needs nor receives a change in calibration between the before or after runs and the bike isn't removed or unstrapped to load the remap?

If that's the case then even if the dyno was out of true calibration, the relative differences between the before and after runs would be constant and negligible. Only a serious change in ambient temperature and barometric pressure between runs would make a difference, highly unlikely since both runs are done within relatively close times.

As an aside, a typical increase of 11 bhp on a bike that originally made 92 bhp is not anywhere near a 25% increase or greater as some people are quoting and an 11 bhp increase at top end is not going to make the bike much faster, only marginally so.

 

[kevmean]

Surely the dynamometer neither needs nor receives a change in calibration between the before or after runs and the bike isn't removed or unstrapped to load the remap?

If that's the case then even if the dyno was out of true calibration, the relative differences between the before and after runs would be constant and negligible. Only a serious change in ambient temperature and barometric pressure between runs would make a difference, highly unlikely since both runs are done within relatively close times.

As an aside, a typical increase of 11 bhp on a bike that originally made 92 bhp is not anywhere near a 25% increase or greater as some people are quoting and an 11 bhp increase at top end is not going to make the bike much faster, only marginally so.

That is exactly the point we are trying to get over the dyno should neither need or receive alterations to it's calibration etc when a map is changed. and the second point is that people are posting before graphs of 82bhp not 92 but with an after graph of 103bhp the after graph may well be true ..... it is the difference claimed we are saying does not seem to be right unless other things were repaired or changed at the same time.

 

[Wilsdorf]

My bike's graphs show over 30% increase in bhp. I'm sure the torque was around 25% up too, across the rev range, not just top end.

 

[Yonkyo]

one chap who went up there, & after the first run Geoff asked "Have you owned this bike from new"?

"Not exactly" was the reply "It's an ex-demo bike. Why?"

Geoff explained that it was running spot on, & that he couldn't in all honesty take any money, so he gave the owner the dyno print out as a souvenir & no bill.

Are we intimating that BMW have their demo bikes specially prepared..

This might explain why my recently purchased 2013 1200GSA TC, is the best TC i've ever ridden.
The motor is silky smooth and glitch free.....and its an ex demo bike...

 

[Deleted account 190920001]

Are we intimating that BMW have their demo bikes specially prepared..

This might explain why my recently purchased 2013 1200GSA TC, is the best TC i've ever ridden.
The motor is silky smooth and glitch free.....and its an ex demo bike...

No it just means it has driven hard from day one because nobody cares about the demo bike.

 

[Yonkyo]

No it just means it has driven hard from day one because nobody cares about the demo bike.

Just as they should be run-in...

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

I had my 2012 GS TC done by Geoff last year. I got it done purely for the improvement in low speed throttle response as at the time I was commuting into the city centre and the jerky throttle was far from pleasant. I had no desires for an increase in torque or BHP, but wouldn't turn them down if they were a side effect of the remap. Also of concern to me was the vibrations coming through the bike.

Geoff stuck it on the dyno before the remap and showed it to be producing 77 BHP and 57 lbft. He commented that it was the worst he'd seen. After the remap the dyno showed 100.32 BHP and 80 lbft.

The first thing I thought when riding it back home was that there was no way those figures could be correct. It simply didn't feel any quicker at all, and a 30% increase in BHP combined with a 40% increase in torque should definitely be noticeable. What I did notice though was that there was far less vibration and the slow speed stuff was much nicer which was the reason for having the remap done. I've since ridden other standard GSs and had other people ride mine. That amount of power/torque should be obvious and yet none of us have been able to tell any difference in pure performance terms. We have all, however, noticed the improvement when at slow speed. This also includes people who weren't told the bike was remapped before they rode it.

• So, would I believe the dyno charts and claimed improvement in power/torque? No way.
• Did it make it smoother and more controllable at low speed? Absolutely.
• Would I have it done again? No, probably not.
• Why didn't I take it back for a refund? The slow speed stuff did make my commute much nicer and I'd have happily paid £150 for that. The 200 mile round trip didn't appeal (it was winter and actually started snowing half way home from having the remap done). I then had medical issues and didn't ride for over 6 months. I now no longer own the bike as I took delivery of the R1200RT 2 weeks ago. I wasn't UNhappy with the remap, just not as blown away as I'd liked to have been having read all about it before having it done.
• Am I interested in getting a bit more power out of the RT? Yes. It's a bit down on power and heavier compared to the GS. I'd like just a smidge more power, mainly for overtaking. I do, however, think the slow speed stuff is much better out of the box than the GS was and I'm not sure why.
• Who am I going to use to sort out the RT? No idea. Still looking around. Don't want to go down the PC route as I'd rather not have another box of tricks one the bike that I'd need to hide/explain.

Interesting....

 

[Deleted account 190920001]

Absalutely

 

[Pukmeister]

My first 2004 1200 was a demonstrator from my cousins dealership in Northampton and it went like stink where mates bikes seemed slower, perhaps they just need a good ragging from new or maybe they really are tweaked, who knows?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[neoviper]

In all the years i have been involved in the motorcycle industry,
i have had wright ups in major publications my work on ecu mapping has gone all over the world ,
I don't advertise my work, i get it by recommendation .
The allegations of me tampering with figures to gain work is totally false and i find the allegations are slanders me and the company,
That leaves me no choice but to take legal action to redeem my good name.
i have never said that the remap on a gs is a performance mod, bmw do other models for that purpose.
To the members that have shown me support i thank you.

geoff from hilltop motorcycles

[email protected]
01455 848522

 

[Ted]

No it just means it has driven hard from day one because nobody cares about the demo bike.

Slightly off topic but relevant to the "demo bike" reference. Our Demo/loan cars customers often say that they perform and run much better than there own identical car and it is probably as stated. Thrashed everywhere with little regard for the engine. For over 20 years now ECUs have had a degree of self learning (adaptation) built in so if you constantly push the standard settings for any length of time it will re learn new ones and this could mean slightly different timing advance, injector timing etc. Not surprised that some bikes respond better to remap as the ECU is better matched to the actual engine and ancillaries its fitted to rather than an idealised standard engine and control unit. Bit like old fashioned engine Blueprinting, optimising each component to its best most efficient state. As for the perceived power increase not seeming like much. Remember having a discussion with a guy who had just added over 50bhp to his 150 hp car and was disappointed it was not super fast and I tried to explain to get the performance he was after he needed another 150 or a much lighter more aerodynamic car. So again not surprised people disappointed at the apparent lack of extra performance.
What I have read throughout this thread is the constant mention of, smoother power delivery, quicker throttle response and less need to change down. This seems to me to be exactly what a remap should do, again matching electronics to mechanical needs. If power gains and extra performance is your requirement try a bike that has a better fairing, lighter and quicker revving engine rather than trying to make a GS something it was never meant to be. A nice HP2 with flat bars and Anakee 3s.
Have 2 09 GSs and one is as sweet as a nut can ride it on the throttle at walking speed. The other is a pig at low speed needing constant throttle and clutch adjustment to stop it stalling or running away. Guess which one I hope to get over to Hilltop once the Christmas bills are paid.

 

[RedRick Esq.]

I had mine re mapped at hilltop last year

I can say without hesitation that the bike runs better for it !

The lumpy hunting throttle that i experienced when it traffic has gone.

Top gear roll on is significantly improved.

the power delivery is a great deal smoother particularly at the 5k revs range that i believe troubles GS.

and as the least consequence to me is it goes a good deal quicker than before if you give it the berrys.

I was given several bits of paper with power curves and the like on them by geoff showing before and after the re map and i promptly binned them as they were meaningless to me, what mattered was the way in wich the bike felt to me which as stated was much improved and worth every penny

Now for those doubters out there i will lay down a challenge, my re mapped GS will outperform a non remapped GS on top gear roll on, and acceleration through the gears so come and take me up on it and see for yourself

 

[The Grey One]

Slightly off topic but relevant to the "demo bike" reference. Our Demo/loan cars customers often say that they perform and run much better than there own identical car and it is probably as stated. Thrashed everywhere with little regard for the engine. For over 20 years now ECUs have had a degree of self learning (adaptation) built in so if you constantly push the standard settings for any length of time it will re learn new ones and this could mean slightly different timing advance, injector timing etc. Not surprised that some bikes respond better to remap as the ECU is better matched to the actual engine and ancillaries its fitted to rather than an idealised standard engine and control unit. Bit like old fashioned engine Blueprinting, optimising each component to its best most efficient state.......

And even more off topic I worked for years with Citroen 2CVs another air cooled twin. The ones that were thrashed from new always ran better and there was no clever system to "learn" anything.

John