Solid white lines

[Sooty09]

After being stuck behind Jippo caravans on their way to Appleby a few weeks ago we started a debate on whether you can cross solid white lines. The main problem area was the stretch of double solids for about 4 miles at Coniston Cold on the A65, very few cars were overtaking and the traffic was backing up as far as Gargrave.
Surprisingly very few of us (Myself included) knew the answer.
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Rule 129 from the Highway code.
Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.

[Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 26]

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That reads clearly enough except-

Is a horse drawn caravan in the above list?

"You may cross to pass a stationary vehicle" dose this mean you can cross if safe to do so to pass a stationary traffic jam? If so its true, the double white lines are to create a traffic busting motorcycle lane.

Be honest now, how many of you actually know the highway code enough to be 100% certain of you facts?

 

[Buz]

I guess its a case of 'if in doubt don't cross'

Interesting to see what replies get posted by those who know

 

[Jacal]

IMHO I don't see the traffic officer would be too pleased, he's argument would be that the slow moving traffic is on your side of the road and crossing double whites would put you into oncoming traffic. Know a couple of friends that were fined for their panniers being over the whites although their bikes weren't

 

[MikeP]

That reads clearly enough except-

Is a horse drawn caravan in the above list?

"You may cross to pass a stationary vehicle" dose this mean you can cross if safe to do so to pass a stationary traffic jam? If so its true, the double white lines are to create a traffic busting motorcycle lane.

Be honest now, how many of you actually know the highway code enough to be 100% certain of you facts?

The Highway Code is not the law (even when it quotes act and section).

The law says that the horse must be being ridden or led at a speed less than 10mph. So that rules out passing a horse-drawn vehicle.

"Stationary" in this respect is not one that is temporarily held-up by traffic conditions. Just as passing one that is slowed by traffic conditions is not allowed if straddling or crossing the unbroken white line is the only way to pass.

The list also includes "when directed to do so by a constable in uniform or a traffic warden".

 

[brassmonkey001]

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Rule 129 from the Highway code.
Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.[Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 26]

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Seems clear enough to me.
They can't possibly list every type of vehicle or slow moving road user that you might encounter so AFAIAC anything moving under 10mph is fair game.
In response to your specific question - does a horse drawn cart move faster or slower than a horse?

 

[brassmonkey001]

The law says that the horse must be being ridden or led at a speed less than 10mph. So that rules out passing a horse-drawn vehicle.

And if the horse drawn vehicle is being led at under 10mph?

 

[MikeP]

And if the horse drawn vehicle is being led at under 10mph?

A horse is not a horse-drawn vehicle.

And the 10mph in relation to a motor vehicle is specifically limited: in order to pass a road maintenance vehicle which is in use, is moving at a speed not exceeding 10 mph, and is displaying to the rear the sign shown in diagram 610 or 7403;

 

[Dickieboy]

Know a couple of friends that were fined for their panniers being over the whites although their bikes weren't

Someone has being telling you porkies, it is the vehicle crossing the lines that is an offence FFS if you could clump someone because their panniers were over the line you could clump them for sticking their arm out to signal a right turn and clump virtually every luton backed van in the country.
As far as a bike is concerned the wheels would have to cross the lines, a car or lorry the two offside wheels crossing the lines is enough

 

[CuzGS]

No cop I know would have anything to say about someone overtaking anything at less that 10 on a solid as long as it's done at an appropriate place

 

[brassmonkey001]

A horse is not a horse-drawn vehicle.

That's not what I asked.
Can you pass a horse drawn vehicle if the horse is being led at less than 10mph?

 

[MikeP]

That's not what I asked.
Can you pass a horse drawn vehicle if the horse is being led at less than 10mph?

I answered. A horse is not a horse-drawn vehicle and as the regulation specifically states "a horse being ridden or led" it does not include a horse-drawn vehicle.

 

[brassmonkey001]

I answered. A horse is not a horse-drawn vehicle and as the regulation specifically states "a horse being ridden or led" it does not include a horse-drawn vehicle.

Ah, but you also stated

The Highway Code is not the law (even when it quotes act and section).

So it would appear to be down to your interpretation unless you can show me the actual legal ruling stating that 'It is illegal to pass a horse drawn vehicle being led at less than 10mph if such passing causes you to cross a solid white line.'

 

[MikeP]

So it would appear to be down to your interpretation unless you can show me the actual legal ruling stating that 'It is illegal to pass a horse drawn vehicle being led at less than 10mph if such passing causes you to cross a solid white line.'

I haven't quoted the Highway Code. The bit I quoted is from Regulation 26 The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002.

in order to pass a horse that is being ridden or led at a speed not exceeding 10 mph;

Look it up yourself. It isn't open to interpretation. It's in black and white what you can pass and when, it states when you can cross or straddle the unbroken white line nearest your vehicle.

 

[Jacal]

Someone has being telling you porkies, it is the vehicle crossing the lines that is an offence FFS if you could clump someone because their panniers were over the line you could clump them for sticking their arm out to signal a right turn and clump virtually every luton backed van in the country.
As far as a bike is concerned the wheels would have to cross the lines, a car or lorry the two offside wheels crossing the lines is enough

Don't think they had any reason to lie about it. Apparently they overtook traffic and in doing so part of their vehicle crossed the solids.

They were fined!

 

[columbus]

Road markings shown in diagrams 1013.1, 1013.3 and 1013.4: double white lines

26.—(1)*A road marking for conveying the requirements specified in paragraph (2) and the warning specified in paragraph (7) shall be of the size, colour and type shown in diagram 1013.1, 1013.3 or 1013.4.
(2)*The requirements conveyed by a road marking mentioned in paragraph (1) shall be that—
(a)subject to paragraphs (3) and (5), no vehicle shall stop on any length of road along which the marking has been placed at any point between the ends of the marking; and

(b)subject to paragraph (6), every vehicle proceeding on any length of road along which the marking has been so placed that, as viewed in the direction of travel of the vehicle, a continuous line is on the left of a broken line or of another continuous line, shall be so driven as to keep the first-mentioned continuous line on the right hand or off side of the vehicle.

(3)*Nothing in paragraph (2)(a) shall apply so as to prevent a vehicle stopping on any length of road so long as may be necessary for any of the purposes specified in paragraph (4) if the vehicle cannot be used for such a purpose without stopping on the length of road.
(4)*The purposes are—
(a)to enable a person to board or alight from the vehicle,

(b)to enable goods to be loaded on to or to be unloaded from the vehicle,

(c)to enable the vehicle to be used in connection with—

(i)any operation involving building, demolition or excavation;

(ii)the removal of any obstruction to traffic;

(iii)the maintenance, improvement or reconstruction of the length of road; or

(iv)the laying, erection, alteration, repair or cleaning in or near the length of road of any sewer or of any main, pipe or apparatus for the supply of gas, water or electricity, or of any telecommunications apparatus kept installed for the purposes of a telecommunications code system or of any other telecommunications apparatus lawfully kept installed in any position.

(5)*Nothing in paragraph (2)(a) shall apply—
(a)so as to prevent a vehicle stopping in a lay-by;

(b)to a vehicle for the time being used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes;

(c)to a pedal bicycle not having a sidecar attached thereto, whether additional means of propulsion by mechanical power are attached to the bicycle or not;

(d)to a vehicle stopping in any case where the person in control of the vehicle is required by law to stop, or is obliged to do so in order to avoid an accident, or is prevented from proceeding by circumstances outside his control;

(e)to anything done with the permission or at the direction of a constable in uniform or in accordance with the direction of a traffic warden; or

(f)to a vehicle on a road with more than one traffic lane in each direction.

(6)*Nothing in paragraph (2)(b) shall be taken to prohibit a vehicle from being driven across, or so as to straddle, the continuous line referred to in that paragraph, if it is safe to do so and if necessary to do so—
(a)to enable the vehicle to enter, from the side of the road on which it is proceeding, land or premises adjacent to the length of road on which the line is placed, or another road joining that road;

(b)in order to pass a stationary vehicle;

(c)owing to circumstances outside the control of the driver;

(d)in order to avoid an accident;

(e)in order to pass a road maintenance vehicle which is in use, is moving at a speed not exceeding 10 mph, and is displaying to the rear the sign shown in diagram 610 or 7403;

(f)in order to pass a pedal cycle moving at a speed not exceeding 10 mph;

(g)in order to pass a horse that is being ridden or led at a speed not exceeding 10 mph; or

(h)for the purposes of complying with any direction of a constable in uniform or a traffic warden.

(7)*The warning conveyed by a road marking mentioned in paragraph (1) shall be that no vehicle while travelling next to a broken line placed on the left of a continuous line, as viewed in the direction of travel of the vehicle, should cross or straddle the first-mentioned line unless it is seen by the driver of the vehicle to be safe to do so.

 

[columbus]

Don't think they had any reason to lie about it. Apparently they overtook traffic and in doing so part of their vehicle crossed the solids.

They were fined!

(2)*The requirements conveyed by a road marking mentioned in paragraph (1) shall be that—

(b)subject to paragraph (6), every vehicle proceeding on any length of road along which the marking has been so placed that, as viewed in the direction of travel of the vehicle, a continuous line is on the left of a broken line or of another continuous line, shall be so driven as to keep the first-mentioned continuous line on the right hand or off side of the vehicle.

From reading that the outer edge of the right hand pannier would constitute the right hand side or offside of the bike so if they crossed the solid line nearest to the bike the offence would be complete.

 

[brassmonkey001]

I haven't quoted the Highway Code. The bit I quoted is from Regulation 26 The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002.

in order to pass a horse that is being ridden or led at a speed not exceeding 10 mph;

Look it up yourself. It isn't open to interpretation. It's in black and white what you can pass and when, it states when you can cross or straddle the unbroken white line nearest your vehicle.

I wouldn't know where to look. I am just an ordinary bloke on the street, it is not my business to know every nuance of the law. I, like 95% of every other road user, am guided by the Highway Code. Perhaps this is something you coppers occasionally lose sight of?
I have read what Columbus has posted, I assume this is the actual law set down. I would argue that it is still not clear with regard to passing a horse drawn carriage if the horse drawing it is being led (or ridden) at or less than 10mph.

 

[Sooty09]

From the above replies Im not surprised almost all the cars held back and did not overtake. I have looked up Regulation 26 The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. Its just as quoted by Jacal, to me it reads like a script from Yes Minister, and Im just as confused at the end as I was at the start.

Take (g)in order to pass a horse that is being ridden or led at a speed not exceeding 10 mph; -
Our small group discussion decided When attached to a caravan it is not being ridden or led but driven from within so you cannot overtake. However if the horse pulling the caravan is being walked with, which is quite common you can overtake.

Its not surprising Lawyers make so much money making sense of this lot, consider who would make an issue and include within the law subsections such as "to a pedal bicycle not having a sidecar attached thereto"

 

[Dickieboy]

Don't think they had any reason to lie about it. Apparently they overtook traffic and in doing so part of their vehicle crossed the solids.

They were fined!

I expect the part of the bike was the nearside pannier then.

 

[Elle]

Good Topic - altho I thought the governing slow speed was 15mph....

On a recent ride out, I was on a 60mph carriageway with 1 lane in my direction, 2 lanes facing me. Myself and a car in front, caught up 2 cyclists riding side-by-side, travelling around 20mph (on a downhill section). Double white lines prevented us from overtaking but on an early Sunday morning, there was no on-coming traffic.

The two inconsiderate cyclists made no attempt to move over. Whilst I understand the dangers cyclists encounter, especially when travelling at speed and faced with just as many blind drivers that we do, I was particularly enraged by their behaviour.

However, I also blame the highway agency for placing double white lines where they were unnecessary - the road is straight with a clear view for at least 200m.

The list of what you can overtake is far too small and not enough drivers are stopped for driving too slow on major routes. A vehicle doing 40mph on a 60mph road can cause havoc in rush hour.