Starter woes - help needed

[brassmonkey001]

Right. I'm not brilliant with electrickery, I may have mentioned before.
So here goes:
I press the button, the starter relay clicks but nothing from the solenoid. There is power to the starter through the main terminal post and 12v across the two large terminals. When putting the meter to earth and the small terminal and pressing the button there is nothing but when I disconnect the small wire and put the meter to the wire and press the button I get 12v. What is this telling me? Solenoid stuck? I have tried tapping it but to no avail.
A quick response would be appreciated as I plan to take this bugger to Skye

 

[Tarka]

Firstly,does the engine turn over okay by hand or via the kickstarter if fitted ??

I`ve got a bit confused translating your description of what`s on the terminal posts of the starter but here`s a bit about the solenoid...

The 'small wire' to the solenoid is the +ve supply to the solenoid coil.
If you`re testing from earth or battery -ve to the 'small wire' and getting 12v +ve on it when you press the starter button,then all is well up to that point.

Test the solenoid coil for continuity...put yer meter on the Ohms setting (looks like a horseshoe symbol) and go from the 'small wire' spade terminal to earth.
ISTR it should read about 6 Ohms.
Certainly it should read some resistance and not be open circuit (open circuit reads the same as if the test probes aren`t touching each other).

If the solenoid is functioning you should get a clearly audible sound and even feel it switching.
Solenoids can gum up and it may need stripping,cleaning,and lubing.

Also their contacts can get dirty or 'pitted' and not make properly.


Other than solenoid problems you may be onto the dreaded 'fallen apart starter motor magnets' syndrome.

 

[bumpmuncher]

When putting the meter to earth and the small terminal and pressing the button there is nothing but when I disconnect the small wire and put the meter to the wire and press the button I get 12v.
A quick response would be appreciated as I plan to take this bugger to Skye

mmm i would try touching the small terminal on the solenoied with a direct feed from the battery (hot wire) to see if the starter works. then if it does look for a break in the starter trigger wire. cant see why it woud show nothing with with it connected and 12v disconected other than disturbing a break in the wire. but i am sure others will be along



read it again is the starter relay failing under load ?

 

[brassmonkey001]

Cheers fella. It started fine this morning to go to work but when I came to go home again it tried to turn the engine for 1/2 a second then no more. Had to get a bump start.
And to add insult to injury I've just had to repair my sodding multimeter as a test lead suddenly broke.

 

[brassmonkey001]

Test the solenoid coil for continuity...put yer meter on the Ohms setting (looks like a horseshoe symbol) and go from the 'small wire' spade terminal to earth.
ISTR it should read about 6 Ohms.
Certainly it should read some resistance and not be open circuit (open circuit reads the same as if the test probes aren`t touching each other).

0.7 at the 200 Ohms setting on the meter. I assume this equates to 7 Ohms?

mmm i would try touching the small terminal on the solenoied with a direct feed from the battery (hot wire) to see if the starter works. then if it does look for a break in the starter trigger wire. cant see why it woud show nothing with with it connected and 12v disconected other than disturbing a break in the wire. but i am sure others will be along



read it again is the starter relay failing under load ?

Hot wire spins it up OK. Might be a chafe or a break in the wire resulting from last weeks removal of the timing chain cover.

 

[bumpmuncher]

Hot wire spins it up OK. Might be a chafe or a break in the wire resulting from last weeks removal of the timing chain cover.

ahhh that old chestnut hope its that easy

 

[brassmonkey001]

ahhh that old chestnut hope its that easy

Doesn't appear to be.

 

[brassmonkey001]

The 'small wire' to the solenoid is the +ve supply to the solenoid coil.
If you`re testing from earth or battery -ve to the 'small wire' and getting 12v +ve on it when you press the starter button,then all is well up to that point.

There's no voltage when the small wire is connected to the solenoid and I press the button, but if I pull the wire off and test between -ve and the wire I get 12v when the starter button is pressed.
I've ordered a new relay from Motorworks now. At least I'll be able to rule that out. Hopefully I should get it before Thursday. If it isn't that I'll have to take the 650 to Skye instead.

 

[(RIP) Kaister]

I thinkthe starter button earths the relay coil, so it sounds like a stuck or pitted solenoid.

On guzzi's you take the solenoid apart and clean up the power contacts.

 

[Tarka]

There's no voltage when the small wire is connected to the solenoid and I press the button, but if I pull the wire off and test between -ve and the wire I get 12v when the starter button is pressed.

As written,that is showing that the relay is switching okay and also that you`re getting a 12v +ve supply to the solenoid coil.

I've ordered a new relay from Motorworks now.

So that isn`t likely to make any difference.

I thinkthe starter button earths the relay coil, so it sounds like a stuck or pitted solenoid.
On guzzi's you take the solenoid apart and clean up the power contacts.

Moto is saying what I did in my first post.

Whizz the starter motor off and get the solenoid opened up.
Clean all the faces up,ensure the 'slug' of the solenoid is free and lubed,as well as the Bendix mechanism,and clean the switching contacts.

 

[brassmonkey001]

Hmm, but Bumpmuncher's "hot wire" tip worked fine which leads me to think the problem doesn't lie with the solenoid.

My first thoughts were solenoid sticking but I'm not sure now.

I'll fetch it out on the bench tonight and see what happens.
I'm wondering if the hot wire to the small connector causes the motor to spin but without the solenoid actuating?

 

[Tarka]

Hmm, but Bumpmuncher's "hot wire" tip worked fine which leads me to think the problem doesn't lie with the solenoid.

My first thoughts were solenoid sticking but I'm not sure now.

I'll fetch it out on the bench tonight and see what happens.
I'm wondering if the hot wire to the small connector causes the motor to spin but without the solenoid actuating?

Hmmm yeah...I forgot about that.
But if you`ve truly got a 12v +ve on the connector for the solenoid coil,that should give the same result as what you`ve tried.

This is showing the frustrations of trying to diagnose remotely....whereas a couple of minutes on the job would have it sussed.

*Bulb of Enlightenment*
When you tried it did the engine turn over or did you just hear the starter motor spin?

If the starter motor is spinning but the engine isn`t turning over it suggests the solenoid core 'slug' is moving and making the contacts okay but the Bendix mechanism is stuck or dislodged.

 

[Mike Wilkins]

starter woes

Hi BM
I found these handy when I recently had similar probs
http://www.largiader.com/tech/valeo/
http://www.airheads.org/content/view/210/98/
Cheers
Mike

 

[AberdeenAngus]

I've had this one.

Check your starter brushes.

 

[brassmonkey001]

Hmmm yeah...I forgot about that.
But if you`ve truly got a 12v +ve on the connector for the solenoid coil,that should give the same result as what you`ve tried.

This is showing the frustrations of trying to diagnose remotely....whereas a couple of minutes on the job would have it sussed.

Very kind of you, I'll get the kettle on.

*Bulb of Enlightenment*
When you tried it did the engine turn over or did you just hear the starter motor spin?

If the starter motor is spinning but the engine isn`t turning over it suggests the solenoid core 'slug' is moving and making the contacts okay but the Bendix mechanism is stuck or dislodged.

I only dabbed the wire on the starter. I didn't notice if the engine turned or not. The solenoid appeared to be working but I'll have a more thorough look tonight.

 

[bumpmuncher]

I'm wondering if the hot wire to the small connector causes the motor to spin but without the solenoid actuating?

only if the solenoied is jammed. you can make it do what you describe if you touch one of the large threaded contacts (makes the starter spin but doesnot throw the solenoied). my vote is for a knackered starter relay (failing under load) you could pop the top off and use a fine bit of emmery cloth on the contacts. Tarks is right a couple of min face to face with the bike and it would all be evident.

 

[SJRoome]

Hi Brass Monkey

Let me see if I can be a little help here.

I assume you have a Valeo starter. There are two large terminals on the solenoid. One has a thick lead that comes from the +ve terminal of the battery (call this terminal 1). The other is connected to a braided lead that goes to the starter motor (call this terminal 2). There is a blade connector on the solenoid that has a thin wire coming from the starter motor (your thin terminal).

I press the button, the starter relay clicks but nothing from the solenoid. There is power to the starter through the main terminal post and 12v across the two large terminals. When putting the meter to earth and the small terminal and pressing the button there is nothing but when I disconnect the small wire and put the meter to the wire and press the button I get 12v. What is this telling me?

There should be 12V between terminal 1 and 2 when the starter is on the bike and the solenoid is not operating as one is connected to the positive side of the battery and the other is connected via the starter motor to earth, and the starter motor has a very low resistance.

I dont know the correct voltage for the thin terminal when pressing the starter button without checking the manual but it should not be zero. This is the voltage across the solenoid coil when attempting to actuate the solenoid so either the solenoid is short circuited, or the relay is not delivering any current to the solenoid. If the thin wire delivers 12V to the meter when disconnected from the solenoid then the starter relay is delivering the correct voltage, but is not necessarily capable of delivering any current.

0.7 at the 200 Ohms setting on the meter. I assume this equates to 7 Ohms?

So the solenoid is not short circuited. We are down to failure to deliver an adequate current to the solenoid.

Hot wire spins it up OK. Might be a chafe or a break in the wire resulting from last weeks removal of the timing chain cover.

A hot wire to the small terminal should make the solenoid operate, and this then makes the starter motor spin. The fact that something happens confirms that the problem is the delivery of an adequate current to the solenoid. It will be a a failed starter relay, or a very poor connection or break in a wire around the relay.

Steve

 

[brassmonkey001]

only if the solenoied is jammed. you can make it do what you describe if you touch one of the large threaded contacts (makes the starter spin but doesnot throw the solenoied). my vote is for a knackered starter relay (failing under load) you could pop the top off and use a fine bit of emmery cloth on the contacts. Tarks is right a couple of min face to face with the bike and it would all be evident.

Hmm, I ran the wire from the solenoid terminal to the large starter terminal instead of the battery due to the length of wire I had to hand. I'll try running one to the battery instead.

 

[bumpmuncher]

Hmm, I ran the wire from the solenoid terminal to the large starter terminal instead of the battery due to the length of wire I had to hand. I'll try running one to the battery instead.

yes you can do it that way (it will only work from one of the large posts not sure which one) i usually use a coin or screwdriver. you could also try whacking the starter relay when you press the starter button.

A hot wire to the small terminal should make the solenoid operate, and this then makes the starter motor spin. The fact that something happens confirms that the problem is the delivery of an adequate current to the solenoid. It will be a a failed starter relay, or a very poor connection or break in a wire around the relay.

Steve

i think steve is a pro so he definately knows what he is saying

 

[Tarka]

Don`t forget though that even if the starter motor is spinning,the engine won`t crank over unless the Bendix mechanism is free and functioning.