Starting Issues - 2005 GS

[NeilMac]

Yesterday I pulled every +ve connection off: From the battery, starter motor and alternator and got to work with an ammeter, as well as checking for continuity or resistance... which is what I has hoping to find.

I also spent time on both the -ve circuit and also that little solenoid / relay circuit and finally, I dug out the old starter motor and conducted some testing there.

One thing I found is that if you activate the solenoid with an ammeter in +ve circuit, the current draw goes off a 10A scale and actually made the leads to my meter slightly warm.

However, experimenting with the old starter motor on the bench and wiring it to a completely separate car battery, imitating the wiring in the bike, i.e. permanent feed to the solenoid terminals but using the 'starter' wire to engage to solenoid therefore allowing the motor to spin up, current draw on the starter button circuit drops to a much more acceptable 6 amps. Also the starter spins and the bendix remains engaged the whole time the 'button' is pressed.

I have not drawn any definite conclusions yet, but will be doing some further testing today. I have an inkling that I know what the problem is, but I need to do more work to prove it.

 

[NeilMac]

Just to add.

Someone somewhere asked if the bike had been stored, with too much oil in it on the side stand for any period of time.

I think you may be onto something there.

I have changed all four spark plugs and the secondary plug from the left hand (looking from behind) cylinder MAY (I can't recall) have looked a little wet, certainly one of the secondary plugs did. I assumed petrol, but maybe not.

More checking to be done.

 

[botus]

I have changed all four spark plugs and the secondary plug from the left hand (looking from behind) cylinder MAY (I can't recall) have looked a little wet, certainly one of the secondary plugs did. I assumed petrol, but maybe not.

take the plugs out and spin the engine over (or at least turn over, by moving the back wheel in 6th gear - its a lot easier than faffing with the front cover), remember a hydraulic lock (fluid in the cyl bore) can destroy an engine easily

 

[Pukmeister]

The starter drawing only 6 amps is because it is not under load and just overcoming internal friction.

Starting a big twin under cylinder compression will cause it to draw a lot more current.

 

[Steptoe]

Just to add.

Someone somewhere asked if the bike had been stored, with too much oil in it on the side stand for any period of time.

I think you may be onto something there.

I have changed all four spark plugs and the secondary plug from the left hand (looking from behind) cylinder MAY (I can't recall) have looked a little wet, certainly one of the secondary plugs did. I assumed petrol, but maybe not.

More checking to be done.

The secondary plugs are always blacker and wetter than the main plugs

 

[Hann]

The starter drawing only 6 amps is because it is not under load and just overcoming internal friction.

I think he’s talking about just the starter solenoid ( not the relay….) rather than the actual starter motor complete.

 

[NeilMac]

I think he’s talking about just the starter solenoid ( not the relay….) rather than the actual starter motor complete.

Indeed.

And the contrast between just activating the solenoid, which drew maybe 20 Amps, and taking an identical current reading, but allowing the energised solenoid to actually do its job, which dropped the current on the activated solenoid to 6 Amps.

From the above measurements, I am drawing a conclusion, based on what I saw a heard when trying to get the engine to start and failing, even with a set of jump leads attached to a car battery, that the engine was stalling the starter motor, hence the larger batteries doing no good and the rapid depletion of the bikes battery, shown in a drop from 12.5V to 2.2V across the battery when the starter button was pressed.

I could be completely wrong, but I am having to think my way through this and inevitably when doing diagnostic work, some thought processes will be along the right track, but not find the fault, which eventually will lead to the right conclusion..... at least I hope so.

 

[botus]

take the spark plugs out and see if it turns over - and if doing so if any liquid comes out - very unlikely to be oil - but an injector might have leaked by

 

[The Other PaulG]

You need a mate with a similar bike.

You battery in his bike, does it start?

His battery in your bike, does it start?

This will tell you a great deal.

 

[NeilMac]

You need a mate with a similar bike.

You battery in his bike, does it start?

His battery in your bike, does it start?

This will tell you a great deal.

I have a mate with a 1250.... two mates in fact.... but I'm not sure I dare ask that favour.

Thinking about it though, I also know a guy with an R1150RS...

Food for thought, thanks.

 

[Santa-2512]

There are only 3 things that spring to mind which would prevent turning over sufficiently to prevent starting

1) A faulty starter motor , was it replaced with a brand spankers new unit or Checked / certified SH unit, you could have replaced dead for dying ?

2) Battery -It could be duff, but given what your subjected it to , i get the feeling it's A ok, but i could be wrong

3) A Mechanical fault within the engine, Mikeyboy & Steptoe, would be best to fill in the blanks here

Without teaching you to suck eggs, you are aware that even with a full charged battery, new starter etc etc etc

These bikes are laconic, they dont spin over like a fine tuned jap 4 , they are slow and wheezy

When i had the lemon, i had a duff starter, i convinced myself it wasnt,

I replaced

Battery - Nope

Additional cables from battery to starter - Better , but Nope

Stripped starter , greased, rebuilt, no better and still Nope

Took start to starter fixing place, who tested it, and proclaimed good, didn't need a rebuild - bollox - it was fubarred !!

Fitted a new starter - normal service resumed

The small solenoid is the issue, it cant keep the bendix forward, and turn the starter at the same time

I could get one start if i was lucky after that it was a half hour wait for the engine / starter to cool down

 

[NeilMac]

Plugs pulled and as per Botus' suggestion, engine turned over via the back wheel with the bike in 6th gear all good. I confess that before this I pulled the secondary plug on the nearside cylinder and as expected (given that I have drained the sump) there was no sign of oil.

Next job, pull the rocker covers.

There was considerably more oil in the nearside cover and a lot more black carbon deposits too. I hadn't expected a huge amount of oil as the bike's been on the centre stand for a few days, so I'd expect the oil to make its way back into the sump.

While I was in the top of the engine I carried on with the service and checked the valve clearances.

Same on the offside, but with a lot less oil.

Now I have to wait, as the motor factor where I have bought oil for my motorbikes for a goodly number of years has decided not to stock motorcycle oil any more... ho hum, back to the internet. I suppose this will give me time to get the petrol tank back on.

Santa: as I have said in several posts, the starter is brand new, so I am currently considering option 3 in some form or another.

 

[botus]

so with no plugs, thus little resistance (other than cam lobes, drag of the cyl bores and oil, and the slight compression as air struggles out the plug holes) does it spin over happily on the starter ?

I guess so.... if that improves at its turns over a bit / sounds OK - I doubt anything's really wrong - I'd be back on the electrical side - why are you so confident the starter is happy - if above went OK I'd still go to bump start it, when I knew that works I'd refocus on the wires / starter

 

[NeilMac]

No I haven't spun the engine over on the starter yet, as there is currently no oil in the engine.

Why am I confident about the starter... because it's brand new and I have both bench tested it and tested it using the bikes battery and wiring.

So far on this thread I have been told that both the brand new battery and the brand new starter are faulty. Until I can prove that those assertions are correct, I have to assume they are not.

 

[SBD]

Voltage 12v divided by 0 ohms equals 12 amps, a short circuit

12 V divided by zero ohms equals infinity amps, a short circuit.

Obviously there will never be zero ohms. (Unless your bike is made of room temperature superconductors, and even then..) but it’ll be waaaay more than 12 A.

Starter motor current likely to be a couple of hundred amps, because the total resistance of starter motor, solenoid, red wiring, earth return and battery is in the region of 50 milliohms.

It seems to me that if the battery voltage is dropping to 2.2V, the resistance of the external circuit is low enough, and the battery is fubarred. Swapping between bikes (or even put the battery in your car if the terminals can be properly attached) is a very good test.

 

[Pukmeister]

For the love of God, just put the bloody battery on a load tester and prove/disprove it.

 

[Bem]

For the love of God, just put the bloody battery on a load tester and prove/disprove it.

No no, don`t do that!
We need this thread to run for another ten pages

 

[Si Yates]

For the love of God, just put the bloody battery on a load tester and prove/disprove it.

Spoil sport I'm enjoying this

 

[Mistacat]

Just for information's sake.
Using a Snap -on 125 amp load tester a Motobatt MBYZ16 HD battery reads 10 volts.
When cranking the engine ( injectors disconnected so that it does not fire) the voltage at the battery supply terminal on the Starter solenoid is 8.5 to 9v fluctuating due to varying load.
The battery is 240 CCA and 16.5 AH fully charged when tested.
As previously suggested first load test your battery then check the voltage at the starter when cranking.
Always bear in mind that this is a large displacement ,high compression twin with NO DECOMPRESSION. it is never going to spin over fast.

 

[NeilMac]

It runs!

I have now heard the engine on my GS running for the first time since purchase.

However, in order to get it to start I have had to use an extra jump battery, and while still hot, I tried a restart and the new Motobatt will not turn the engine over, I just get the same click click click that I have suffered from the outset.

This was repeated twice, about 20 minutes apart.

I'm trying to find someone locally with a proper battery tester in anticipation of starting a warranty claim.

While it was running I checked the voltage on the battery terminals and the alternator is putting about 14.2v into the battery at tickover.